What is your stance on free will?

[ZenMonkey]

How would you define freewill? Is free will a reality or an illusion of false power fostered by an awareness of self and the choices we think we make consciously? I'm in the con freewill camp. What about you and why do you believe as you do?

 

[Skwim]

How would you define freewill? Is free will a reality or an illusion of false power fostered by an awareness of self and the choices we think we make consciously? I'm in the con freewill camp. What about you and why do you believe as you do?

I've always defined freewill as the ability to do (have done) differently. It's an illusion we all operate under. And my reason is that I have yet to see any justification given for actions other than cause or utter randomness.

 

[LuisDantas]

I avoid the very concept, because I don't think it is well defined at all.

Far as I can tell it comes closest to making sense in the circunstance to which it seems to have been created: as a complement to the notion of of an all-powerful God that nevertheless created an obviously imperfect world.

By proposing that somehow humans have free will all the while being purposefully created by God, there is an attempt at presenting the contradiction as a paradox, a necessary balance.

Myself, I don't think that is a very accurate or very useful model of reality, so I do not use it except to illustrate what free will seems to be supposed to mean.

Oddly, nearly all conceptions of free will admit that it is not truly "free". Often enough it is not any form of "will" either. Yet the name persists, perhaps because the concept is so arbitrary that nothing better has been presented anyway.

 

[psychoslice]

Some times you have free will and some times you don't, its that simple to me.

 

[Badran]

I used to embrace a somehow simplistic concept of free will that can help justify in mind the concept of reward and punishment, which i also embraced. It basically amounted to: "People are able to act and choose as they will despite of the circumstances they're put in", or something to that effect.

Basically, what it came down to was that people who are 'bad' could have been 'good' but choose not to and vice versa. Through time, it was hard to maintain belief in that. There are many problems with that concept, that makes it fail to meet reality, but the most important problem was actually that even granting truth to it didn't justify what i wanted to justify with it, but that's irrelevant here.

In regards to the question now, i think we have will, and that we can defy circumstances that tend to push us in certain directions, but i don't think that can happen in all things, with everybody, at all times, or under any circumstances. There are a lot of things we can't help, and we're quite often unaware of why we even do what we do to begin with. Either by misinterpretation or by simply being clueless to the reasons behind our actions, beliefs and views. So free will as a term even doesn't make much sense to me now.

 

[ZenMonkey]

I myself don't believe in utter randomness, but cause on the other hand resonates nicely with my current understanding. I believe in patterns and that our life choices are the result of universal laws. I don't believe in predetermination, but I do believe that we follow patterns developed through our life experiences, and that our life experiences follow patterns by the laws that have been established in the universe. Universal laws are responsible for the patterns we follow as living creatures, but the manner in which we follow and submit to these laws is dependent upon our knowledge, understanding, and our ability to develop wisdom. In other words, we are at the mercy of life, and our choices at the mercy of our mental faculty.

 

[ZenMonkey]

Some times you have free will and some times you don't, its that simple to me.

Please explain.

 

[ZenMonkey]

I avoid the very concept, because I don't think it is well defined at all.

Far as I can tell it comes closest to making sense in the circunstance to which it seems to have been created: as a complement to the notion of of an all-powerful God that nevertheless created an obviously imperfect world.

By proposing that somehow humans have free will all the while being purposefully created by God, there is an attempt at presenting the contradiction as a paradox, a necessary balance.

Myself, I don't think that is a very accurate or very useful model of reality, so I do not use it except to illustrate what free will seems to be supposed to mean.

Oddly, nearly all conceptions of free will admit that it is not truly "free". Often enough it is not any form of "will" either. Yet the name persists, perhaps because the concept is so arbitrary that nothing better has been presented anyway.

But then not all view this world to be imperfect, despite the obvious presence of calamity. Not all believe in a creator God either. But then I do believe in a creator God, but I'm a Christian panentheist, so my concept of God is not one based on superstition. To me free will is an illusion, a power trip based on a desire to be in control of our destiny.

 

[ZenMonkey]

I used to embrace a somehow simplistic concept of free will that can help justify in mind the concept of reward and punishment, which i also embraced. It basically amounted to: "People are able to act and choose as they will despite of the circumstances they're put in", or something to that effect.

Basically, what it came down to was that people who are 'bad' could have been 'good' but choose not to and vice versa. Through time, it was hard to maintain belief in that. There are many problems with that concept, that makes it fail to meet reality, but the most important problem was actually that even granting truth to it didn't justify what i wanted to justify with it, but that's irrelevant here.

In regards to the question now, i think we have will, and that we can defy circumstances that tend to push us in certain directions, but i don't think that can happen in all things, with everybody, at all times, or under any circumstances. There are a lot of things we can't help, and we're quite often unaware of why we even do what we do to begin with. Either by misinterpretation or by simply being clueless to the reasons behind our actions, beliefs and views. So free will as a term even doesn't make much sense to me now.

I'm a determinist, so I don't believe we have the capability to consciously defy circumstances that push us in a certain direction. That would mean that we have free will, wouldn't it? I do believe that depending on our knowledge base, and our depth of understanding that we are able to make better informed decisions as we increase in wisdom ... at least our brains are better able. As conscious beings we are merely along for the ride. We (as living beings) are the vehicle, and our brain is in the drivers seat (so to speak).

 

[Willamena]

How would you define freewill? Is free will a reality or an illusion of false power fostered by an awareness of self and the choices we think we make consciously? I'm in the con freewill camp. What about you and why do you believe as you do?

I'm in the pro camp. Free will is the illusion of volition, but no more "false" than the idea of self that gives birth to it.

 

[ZenMonkey]

I'm in the pro camp. Free will is the illusion of volition, but no more "false" than the idea of self that gives birth to it.

I'm not sure I understand your implications. Will you explain?

 

[Badran]

I'm a determinist, so I don't believe we have the capability to consciously defy circumstances that push us in a certain direction. That would mean that we have free will, wouldn't it?

Well note i said "tend to push us", as in, i was addressing how people can overcome certain odds by making decisions and carrying out actions that push them away from more common results or routs, sometimes very remarkably, and sometimes seemingly purposefully. More or less, like you said in the next part, by seeking knowledge, training our minds and bodies, and/or through whatever means, people can realize ways to go in certain routes in their lives which they may have not if it weren't for some of these actions and decisions. Most of the time, it doesn't seem intentional, but i do think that we at least have a portion of control in all that, and in some cases that portion is larger than others.

I view it all as a web of reasons, there are always things completely out of our hands, our understanding and even awareness. But our decisions and actions are part of that web, and while in my view, we don't seem capable of coming anyway near fully comprehending that web or being aware of all it's elements, we can still detect, understand and influence some elements, and that plays a role in the rout we end up in. Also, through time, i think that ability is obviously increasing, as our collective knowledge is increasing.

 

[ZenMonkey]

I agree Badran, but then I also believe that life is in control of the paths we travel as living beings, and our brains are what drives our vehicular bodies. The brain is a fascinating organ that develops as new information is presented. The more information received and processed, the more capable our brains become to make wiser and/or better informed decisions. In relation to Newton's law of motion as it pertains to the functions of our brains, the law applies in that our brains will process information and then send that information (signal) to our body, whereby our body will operate with an equal reaction to the signal received. The amount of knowledge processed by the brain is dependent upon the amount of information received by the brain, which then leads us to an understanding of that knowledge through our awareness. Our awareness is a product of our brains, however. Likewise, our brains will only function properly and in accordance to the amount of knowledge accurately processed, which is why wisdom must be developed over the course of our lives.

 

[psychoslice]

Please explain.

There's an old saying, "those who go with the river becomes the river, those who go against the river becomes it slave".

 

[ZenMonkey]

There's an old saying, "those who go with the river becomes the river, those who go against the river becomes it slave".

I think I see what you're suggesting, but then I'm not in complete agreement either. Like a balloon blowing in the wind, the balloon in effect become the wind, or at the very least blows where the wind blows. In human terms, I'm not so sure it's as easy to go with the river as it may seem.

1) Human's are aware.

2) Human's desire control.

3. Human's are a lot different than a balloon in that our brains drive our vehicular bodies.

4) Our brain (flesh) is in direct opposition to the wind/river (spirit). This is because our brains foster awareness, and it is because we are aware that we desire control. Our brains need development in order make better more informed decisions.

5) That development can only be accomplished by knowledge and understanding.

6) Knowledge and understanding is a process whereby wisdom is gained.

7) Wisdom is developed throughout the course of a persons life.

8) Wisdom is a learned behavior.

9) That learned behavior must become a consistent pattern before wisdom can truly be claimed.

10) Without wisdom, we have no hope to become the wind/river.

 

[dendrophilous]

I feel like we have "freedom" to make decisions just as plants have "freedom" to grow. A seed always has a flower it's predetermined to be; it has no choice in that. But does that make the whole thing any less beautiful?

On a more scientific note, I always had to wonder... looking at physics, from what I understand everything has a reason to be doing whatever it's doing. There is a specific interaction between atoms. If we had the precise enough instruments and the understanding of the finest workings of existence, we could have a box full of atoms and energy and perfectly calculate the outcome to the very last atom that settles.
So that brings the question: is life just another form of the equation, or is it a truly unpredictable variable? With free will, I feel like that's the actual question we're asking. Is the interaction of the atoms of our being on a specific path of reactions, or do we break all models?

 

[ZenMonkey]

I feel like we have "freedom" to make decisions just as plants have "freedom" to grow. A seed always has a flower it's predetermined to be; it has no choice in that. But does that make the whole thing any less beautiful?

On a more scientific note, I always had to wonder... looking at physics, from what I understand everything has a reason to be doing whatever it's doing. There is a specific interaction between atoms. If we had the precise enough instruments and the understanding of the finest workings of existence, we could have a box full of atoms and energy and perfectly calculate the outcome to the very last atom that settles.
So that brings the question: is life just another form of the equation, or is it a truly unpredictable variable? With free will, I feel like that's the actual question we're asking. Is the interaction of the atoms of our being on a specific path of reactions, or do we break all models?

Great thoughts and great question. I'd like to think that we are all destined for a perfect world (life). Every atom and every interaction between atoms is leading all things to that end. I'm a Christian, so when Jesus tells us to have the faith of a mustard seed and to not fear, I'm led to believe that God has something wondrous in store for his creation.

 

[Willamena]

I'm not sure I understand your implications. Will you explain?

Explain what implications?

 

[NobodyYouKnow]

I am a fatalist who doesn't subscribe to the 'free willie' syndrome.

I believe that everything is 'Divine Will' and those who think there's any 'Free Will' are only seeking to exert some kind of 'control' over their lives.

Every time I have tried to exercise my 'Free Will', it has backfired in my face with a '...and just who are you to believe you can do anything without My say so?...seriously?'

The very moment I try and exert any kind of 'control' over my life, the whole substratum of existence gets pulled out from under me, like a rug...exposing all of the dirt I have been sweeping under there.

So no, I don't believe in Free Will. It is an entirely foreign concept for me.

 

[Alceste]

I think most people, most of the time, act impulsively and rationalize it later. Freedom of choice is a necessary illusion though. It helps many of us avoid behaving in ways that are over-indulgent of our basic impulses.

OTOH, I personally prefer other methods of self discipline, so I don't find the concept of free will to be useful in my own life. I'm more of a wei wu wei kind of gal.