What is your stance on free will?

[Thief]

and it was God that gave Man....dominion.

 

[ZenMonkey]

Volition exists. Self exists. These illusions exist, and in reality we indulge them. Not only do we indulge volition and self, but have manipulated them so successfully that we built entire civilizations around them, and fashioned civilizaiton to manipulate us in turn.

Illusion exists--if it didn't, it could have no effect on us.

Having the mental faculty to make a choice based on volition is a tricky thing. We can certainly do what we desire, but then our desires are a product of many variables playing on our mind and emotions. Desire is there, and then an ability to act also, but these do not come freely. As a determinist, I hold that every human event, act, and decision is the inevitable consequence of antecedent states of affairs.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

I believe freewill can only operate in a chaotic universe, choice can only be made if there are no determining factors, but everything is a determining factor.

I would indeed go as far as to say everything, exactly how it is, was determined ever since the chaotic Beginning, and the smallest fraction of the moment in which all started was the only example of freewill.

 

[Ouroboros]

How would you define freewill?

I can't decide!

Is free will a reality or an illusion of false power fostered by an awareness of self and the choices we think we make consciously?

Yes. Absolutely.

I'm in the con freewill camp. What about you and why do you believe as you do?

The older I get, and the more I think about it, the less I understand it... maybe it's just loss of braincells. Don't know.

 

[ZenMonkey]

Wants mean nothing to me. NEEDS mean EVERYTHING to me.

YOU express yourself as a human being with no CENTER of UNDERSTANDING.

YOU wafe/chafe/pivot and move with the wind (or so it sounds).

Haven't you LIVED, LOVED, STRUGGLED, adored?

--Decent Human Beings:
With every expression (every encouraging word and hopeful/nurturing action) make this CULTURE BETTER.

--Horrible Human Beings:
With every expression (every cruel word and prideful/dominating/subjugating action) make this CULTURE WORSE.

It reads so simple, and yet it is TRUE, HONEST.

The next struggle to perceive better is ALL ABOUT HONEST PERCEPTION, over self-fulfilling fantasy of WORSE.

<should not be said: To end too soon, I know not the cost to YOU, I only know the cost to others. Others NEED you to LIVE, STRUGGLE, even when you think no one understands and KNOWS as you do, to STAY LIVING MATTERS>


There are OLD HUMAN BEINGS who are wonderful/loving/amazing... think all the best of the sweatest children, and imagine them KNOWING how messed up it all is and STILL full of WONDER, but in FULL KNOWING (far more understanding than the shallow) and still FULL of LIFE and VITALITY and dealing with the UNCERTAINTY. There are AMAZING OLD HUMAN BEING ALL OVER THIS WORLD. They are a treasure.

Yes the young ones are the future. The TREASURED ONES will live LONG, be known, loved (as they are SOOOO lovable), and make this better.

You speak a great deal of needs, and I agree with your basic premise, but then you are missing a very important element in your views: We're not in control of our destiny ... despite what you may or may not think. We are responsible for our condition of life, however. Our actions have consequences, whether positive consequences or negative. We feed off the consequential experiences and our brains adjust accordingly.


For example:


Our brains are highly capable and complex organs. Wisdom is the result of information being accurately processed by our brains. The fact that we are aware of our decisions is beside the point. Those outside causes are what allows the brain to process the knowledge received. Wisdom is the result of knowledge being accurately processed. Being that wisdom is developed over the course of an individuals life, it comes down to our brains ability to process information, and then its ability to apply that information accurately and consistently in everyday situations. To take it a step further in relation to my own unique Christian perspective: We don't choose morality (not freely anyway), but we develop morality because of our exposure to good and evil. we are born with an intimate connection to the goodness of life, but then we are tainted by worldly influence. We are born pure and innocent, but then the inherent goodness known is mingled with the knowledge of evil. This knowledge then confuses the goodness we are inherently born with.


However, knowledge has the power to develop us into moral agents. This kind of power entices change in our behavior. Morals, as well as wisdom are learned behaviors. They are not inherent, but developed over time and through life experience. We become moral agents because we are exposed to both good and evil. Likewise, We feed off the consequential experiences of good and evil and our brains adjust accordingly. I likewise have faith that we all have a designed purpose, as well as a common destination to reach. God has a purpose for us, and that purpose isn't for us to grovel at God's feet as many seem to suggest, but to raise our heads up high and to live out our purposed lives (as designed) so that when we reach our purposed destination, we can appreciate the lessons learned in this life in contrast to the joy, peace, love, and happiness in the life to come.


I'm under the impression that we get a small glimpse of the wondrous life that is to come in the hereafter. I envision a place free of pain, evil, and suffering. I envision a place of absolute peace and serenity. God is leading us to this place of rest, but then we often resist out of ignorance (lack of knowledge and/or understanding). I understand that many want control in this life, but then so does a 2 year old throwing a tantrum in attempt to defy his parents wishes. God's in control, and that's the gist. God's the potter shaping these human jars of clay, and into vessels worthy of his glory. We may find our reality unpleasant to date, but then we are still learning how to live effectively in this school called life. I never enjoyed high school OR college consistently either, but then I'm now a more knowledgeable and capable man for the time spent. There's a reason for the madness, evils, and unpleasantness in life. They are a means to an end. They lead us to the path's of righteousness, but then if we are kicking, screaming, and resisting the lessons set out for us to learn, then we'll never gain the knowledge and understanding necessary to change our condition of life.


I know I am at the mercy of God (life). But then there's no question that we have the faculty and the ability to learn, to gain knowledge, to gain insight, understanding, and wisdom. It is because of our abilities that our desires sometimes change into desires beneficial to us and society. It is through knowledge and understanding that we make informed decisions. We may choose, but our choices are a product of our desires, needs and our understanding, which are products of the knowledge gained by living. Likewise, it is through living and through our experiences that we gain wisdom, but again we don't freely choose the wisdom we currently have. Our wisdom was attained through living and is a product of every experience we have ever had.


Like a balloon blowing in the wind, we too are at the mercy of the forces pushing us forward. Why do you think knowledge is championed like it is in scripture? It's because it is only through knowledge that we are able to understand key life principles, which then enables our desires to change. Many of us then apply these principles in our daily lives in attempt to avoid the negatives we's otherwise fall into ignorantly. Mankind may be aware, we may come to desire knowledge in life, and we may have brains that enable understanding, but our choices are far from being free. We are still at the mercy of life.

 

[ZenMonkey]

If we are simply the sum of experience and sad fools, or as Shakespeare said "merely poor playing, fretting and strutting about"...

That many sadly, means:
Most human beings meet expectations, sadly(pathetically) performing their dance to the beat of all around, and doing so become apart of the beat of the preponderance of humanity.

To dance with others in a way which is intrinsically CONDUCIVE with their expression, is to be a... a HERD ANIMAL.

To LIVE in LIFE, and struggle for BETTER, regardless of others (wrong) desires, is BEAUTY, even if you have no friends, no back-slapping happy others to share in your existence. It's lonely, but BETTER.

REALITY is struggle to PERCEIVE HONESTLY/TRULY. Don't care about honest nor truth, I hope you die young, as we ever more as the time passes can not afford YOU to EXIST ANYMORE.

STAGNANT

COGNITIVELY LAZY

OLD (old, is a mess, some are the FINIST among us and others are the worst--Those who HATE LIFE and FEAR DEATH--THEY ARE THE WORST!)

Old and still alive, is often amazing/loved/lovable. (in the other cases--let the rot FALL and ROT away from LIFE)

As the Back-Slapping others are SO MUCH WORSE.

It's understandable to be drawn to the comfort of others, but DAMN, you must see the REALITY of the WORSE in DELUSIONS and FANTASY.

You're a peach! Ha! Now, It all hinges on man's so called free will. If God designed all things, knowing the end from the beginning, then God has purpose for his creation. If man's will can thwart God's purpose and/or will, then wouldn't that make man's will more powerful than God's own? Either God's will be done, or man trumps God in a battle of will, which I don't see happening.


So there it is ... God's will vs. Man's will. Who shall be the victor and who shall fall flat. My guess is that God has got this covered despite man's efforts to control. I'm of the mind that when it comes to the will of man in contrast to the will of God, that we're not nearly as powerful as we'd like to think ourselves to be. Either God has got this completely under control or man controls the destiny of man regardless of what God's will for us is.

 

[Sleeppy]

YOU long to perceive a GOD that dominates.

Have you seen the work of your GOD, in the prayers to end so many WRONGS OF, Chernobyl, the Gulf of Mexico, world hunger... no.

So what does your GOD demand SHALL BE no matter what YOU CHOOSE? (WRONG)

You are a self-delusional FOOLS--YOU DO NOT CHOOSE FOR THE EARTH, but your own immediate wealth.

Haven't you live long enough to KNOW that what WE(each and every one of us) CHOOSE MATTERS. Apparently not, your a special flavor of idiot.

YOU LONG TO CLING TO ANOTHER, and FAIL TO THINK for yourself, FEEL for yourself, BE YOURSELF.

What are you... just another shallow shell, a sad joke, PERSONA, not a person.

That's what I perceive in YOU. Struggle for better for a decade or two and YOU WILL MAKE ALL BETTER only if you have a GOOD HEART and SOUND/WELL EDUCATED MIND. OK, if worse than that, WHOLE is not that trivial., but a good heart and sound mind are a start, and that's more than is now...

"SPECIAL FLAVOR OF IDIOT"...

A good heart and a sound mind would definitely help.. And that is more than you've provided.

 

[ZenMonkey]

YOU long to perceive a GOD that dominates.

Have you seen the work of your GOD, in the prayers to end so many WRONGS OF, Chernobyl, the Gulf of Mexico, world hunger... no.

So what does your GOD demand SHALL BE no matter what YOU CHOOSE? (WRONG)

You are a self-delusional FOOLS--YOU DO NOT CHOOSE FOR THE EARTH, but your own immediate wealth.

Haven't you live long enough to KNOW that what WE(each and every one of us) CHOOSE MATTERS. Apparently not, your a special flavor of idiot.

YOU LONG TO CLING TO ANOTHER, and FAIL TO THINK for yourself, FEEL for yourself, BE YOURSELF.

What are you... just another shallow shell, a sad joke, PERSONA, not a person.

That's what I perceive in YOU. Struggle for better for a decade or two and YOU WILL MAKE ALL BETTER only if you have a GOOD HEART and SOUND/WELL EDUCATED MIND. OK, if worse than that, WHOLE is not that trivial., but a good heart and sound mind are a start, and that's more than is now...

I'm a panentheist, so I (in a nut shell) view the sum total of all things, a.k.a. existence to be the force that dominates all living creatures. We're all at the mercy of what is. Sure, we have choices, but then our choices derive from life, our experiences, abilities, genetic makeup, and of course our limitations. Go ahead, revel in your delusion of control and have your power trip, but in the end ... resistance is futile. We are at the mercy of life ... like it or not. It's a good thing that the consequential experiences of good and evil lead to both wisdom and morality, eh?


Listen, I care about the earth, my fellow man, and a very large portion of the creatures that inhabit this planet. I'm all for making the world a better place, but to make the world better, we must first know and understand how to do so. I've gone to great lengths to conserve electricity, to recycle cans and what not. I don't drive and I don't use non biodegradable plastics ... such as cups and plates, and trash bags, etc.


Lack of free will does not absolve us from responsibility. We are still the most dominating species on this planet. As the most dominate species, we can either be good stewards or we can continue to destroy this earth. We have the option available, but then no one ever said humans are very intelligent. We have more advanced abilities than other creatures, but our abilities don't make us smart. This is why knowledge (as I alluded to in another post) is so crucial.


Knowledge enables us. It empowers us in that knowledge leads to understanding, and then understanding then leads to wisdom. Without educating ourselves, w/o gaining knowledge, w/o developing understanding, we'll never grow past our destructive ways. Wisdom is the principle thing, but wisdom is a learned behavior, as is morality.

 

[ZenMonkey]

"SPECIAL FLAVOR OF IDIOT"...

A good heart and a sound mind would definitely help.. And that is more than you've provided.

:clap

 

[ZenMonkey]

It's all well and good ... and as it should be. They guy can't help but be who he is, act and speak as he does, and think the way he thinks. He's a product of the sum total of his personal experiences. Chew on that for a minute SELF DIRECTED. All is not lost.

 

[Virus]

I believe in free will and the consequences of my actions, so does the law....

 

[bobhikes]

An odd belief, but okay.

Yes an odd belief but the key to choice. If the definition of life is the ability to choose then life is the definition of free will.

People get hung up that we are some how highly advanced to all the other life around us. We are special we even have a god that cares about us. Evolution from the ape is highly insulting even though its wrong. The fact that we have a common ancestor to the ape is insulting. Yet there isn't that much difference between us and lots of other animals. If we can have free will why can't they. Weirder if they have free will Plants have to have free will. If plants have free will so do bacterium. In fact the definition of life should be the ability to choose.

 

[Willamena]

Having the mental faculty to make a choice based on volition is a tricky thing. We can certainly do what we desire, but then our desires are a product of many variables playing on our mind and emotions. Desire is there, and then an ability to act also, but these do not come freely. As a determinist, I hold that every human event, act, and decision is the inevitable consequence of antecedent states of affairs.

The myriad variables that can "play" on mind are the mind, so played upon.

 

[Thief]

If there is evidence of freewill...it is in denial.

You are defined by that you to which you say....'nay'.

 

[George-ananda]

What is your stance on free will?

I believe the answer is relative to the observer.

From the ultimate perspective there is no free will. It is all scripted by God.

From our everyday perspective we definitely have free will.



(einstein got a noble prize for his relativity theory; i can't even get a frubal for mine)

 

[Jainarayan]

I do not believe free will exists. I believe that everything we do is conditioned and dependent on other factors (dependent origination) no matter how remote those factors are.

 

[Skwim]

Yes an odd belief but the key to choice. If the definition of life is the ability to choose then life is the definition of free will.

Just as if the definition of life is the ability to laugh then life is the definition of sense of humor. Nice, but hardly meaningful.

People get hung up that we are some how highly advanced to all the other life around us.

If you say so, but it's something I've never seen (getting "hung up" on it).

We are special we even have a god that cares about us.

And I disagree.But what does this have to do with the freewill v. determinism issue?

Evolution from the ape is highly insulting even though its wrong. The fact that we have a common ancestor to the ape is insulting. Yet there isn't that much difference between us and lots of other animals.

Another irrelevancy. Let's stick to the issue.

If we can have free will why can't they.

But we can't, so why should they?

Weirder if they have free will Plants have to have free will. If plants have free will so do bacterium. In fact the definition of life should be the ability to choose.

Think a plant would actually think: "Gee, I think I'll face North this afternoon" ? Or a bacterium would think, "Hmm, today I'm going to wiggle my way over to the other side of this petri dish"?

 

[bobhikes]

Think a plant would actually think: "Gee, I think I'll face North this afternoon" ? Or a bacterium would think, "Hmm, today I'm going to wiggle my way over to the other side of this petri dish"?

Exactly, you get me.:bow:

 

[Thief]

What is your stance on free will?

I believe the answer is relative to the observer.

From the ultimate perspective there is no free will. It is all scripted by God.

From our everyday perspective we definitely have free will.



(einstein got a noble prize for his relativity theory; i can't even get a frubal for mine)

I thought the award was for an economics model....not the famous equation.

 

[Thief]

I do not believe free will exists. I believe that everything we do is conditioned and dependent on other factors (dependent origination) no matter how remote those factors are.

On the contrary...the extreme factors give us the ability.

If we were of lesser factors we would do, as we cannot do otherwise.