"What Jesus REALLY meant was ...."

[John1.12]

Can you even believe what you wrote yourself:

• “God raised up Jesus…”
• “God resurrected Jesus…”

How is Jesus ‘God’ if it was GOD that raised up Jesus?NO, it does not say that…. You are using wordplay…
It is OBVIOUS that three are mentioned BUT not as you say.

Jesus is EXEMPT from the ACT OF RAISING as Jesus is the SUBJECT that is raised.

The Holy Spirit IS THE SPIRIT OF THE FATHER; the Spirit of God.

So ‘God’ and ‘Father’ are titles of the ONE ALMIGHTY - not TWO PERSONS.

God SENDS his spirit to do his works… this sending does not make HIS SPIRIT a person.

A human Being has a SPIRIT unique to that human Being. It is the spirit of that person that DIRECTS the actions of the body of the person. The spirit of a man is not ‘another man’.

God never leaves his position of power, his seat of glory, his throne. All God’s commands are carried out by means of his Holy Angels, or his OWN HOLY SPIRIT.

Because what your doing is presuming unitarianism every time you say ' God ' . You think only the Father is God .

 

[Soapy]

Because what your doing is presuming unitarianism every time you say ' God ' . You think only the Father is God .

Hello!!! I don’t just ‘THINK’ that only the Father is God - JESUS CHRIST and the Scriptures tell us so:

1. “[FATHER], …. This means eternal life, that they believe in YOU, THE ONLY TRUE GOD….” (John 17:3)
2. “For us, there is ONLY ONE GOD; THE FATHER….” (1 Cor 8:6)
3. “For there is ONE God [The Father], and ONE MEDIATOR [Jesus Christ] between God and men, THE MAN Christ Jesus.” (1 Timothy 2.5)

In 1., the previous two verses sets the scene in which Jesus Christ is praying to his God and Father (one person… by reverential title (God) and by dutiful reference (Father)):

• (17:1) After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you.

Jesus acknowledges GOD as his spiritual Father. He prays that GOD should glorify HIM (The Father’s Son)… so that in doing so the Son RETURNS that glory to the Father… GOD GIVES AND GOD REQUIRES THE RETURN OF WHAT HE GIVES. The glory that God gives should be reflected back by a dutiful son of God. It can hardly be said that the first RECEIVER is EQUAL TO the first SENDER. No! The SENDER is GREATER than he who he SENDS TO (else do you say that the Apostles are EQUAL TO THE FATHER when they RECEIVE the gift of the Father at Pentecost?)

• (17:2) For you granted him authority over all people [SO THAT] he might give eternal life to all those you have given him.

Jesus acknowledges that the Father, his God, GRANTED him the authority that he received from the Father. And that it is this GRANTING that allows him to GIVE LIFE to those whom he WILL GIVE ETERNAL LIFE TO at the judgement seat at the end of time.

This leads to verse 3 wherein Jesus states emphatically that the eternal life he will grant to believers DEPENDS on the believers acknowledging THE FATHER AS THE ONLY TRUE GOD, and, acknowledging that Jesus Christ (himself) IS the MESSIAH, the CHRIST, that THE FATHER SENT.

And note carefully that there is ONLY ONE GOD - the Father. No one, and certainly not THREE persons, are named as ‘GOD’. Trinity has no explanation as to why, if a trinity god is three persons, only one is acknowledged as ‘ONLY TRUE GOD’.

And, indeed, the apostles also acknowledge that the Father is the ONLY TRUE GOD, their ONLY GOD and Father, AND that Jesus is MAN, and mediator between GOD - and - man.

It is certainly true that:

• GOD IS NOT A MEDIATOR

… else BETWEEN WHOM is GOD MEDIATING??

The truth: Jesus Christ is the only sinless holy and righteous being, a man consecrated BY GOD, his spiritual Father, and mediates between

• ALMIGHTY GOD who cannot look upon sin

and:

• Sinful man who cannot look upon ALMIGHTY GOD

And here is more truth:

• Jesus says to pray TO THE FATHER for our needs, for aid in our wellbeing, to ease our suffering, to help us resist sin
• Jesus says to pray this way IN HIS (Jesus’) NAME to the Father

This “pray in Jesus’ name” means the following:

1. In ACKNOWLEDGEMENT of the Son of God as the mediator
2. In RIGHTEOUSNESS
3. In TRUTHFULNESS
4. In HONESTY
5. In SELFLESSNESS
6. In REVERENCE

Jesus Christ acts as a GATEWAY, a FILTER, a MONITOR for our prays so that ONLY those prayers conforming entirely to items 1 to 6 EVER REACH THE SPIRITUAL EAR OF THE FATHER, the Spiritual ear of GOD.

Jesus Christ is the true mediator - and a mediator is not the GOD whom he mediates FOR.

 

[Marcion]

Hello!!! I don’t just ‘THINK’ that only the Father is God - JESUS CHRIST and the Scriptures tell us so:

I will have to correct you there, NOT Jesus did so but only some early Christians did, who wrote down their BELIEF in the Christian scriptures.
I choose however to see those beliefs as created fantasy, meant to keep the likes of you under the spell of their created religion.
And you buy it, that is your choice.
There are too many of such religious fantasies around for me to be impressed by your enthousiasm.
As we say in Dutch, it is nothing but 'baked air' to me (stories that sound good but are actually meaningless).

 

[joelr]

The ' trinity ' ( God head ) is at odds with every non Christian denomination. Its at odds with people who are looking for a god like a man . A god that is not greater than, beyond full comprehension in this life . The Scriptures reveals things about God that man cannot fully grasp. We should expect this about God.

There is nothing man cannot "grasp". Theologians cannot fully explain the holy spirit because it's nonsense. I've watched priests give talks on it and they go around in circles saying it's "this" but then it isn't "that", it "this"....blah blah blah...
What it is is another syncretic borrowing from older religions:

The three major Hindu Gods are Brahma, Vishnu and Siva - Creator, Sustenance and Destroyer.


We find the concept of trinity in many other beliefs systems:

- the Egyptian Trinity of a transcendental god Amun that also manifests as Ra and Ptah. Of God Ra that has a daughter Maat (Wisdom, Knowledge) that is a consort or sister of God Thoth (Divine Word or Logos of Ra). This was soon replaced with Osiris, Isis and Horus.

- the Greek Trinity consisting of Zeus (the God), Hera (the Goddess) and Hercules (their son)

the Babylonian holy Trinity consisting of Ninki (later became Ishtar) the mother, Enki (later became Namakh) the father, and Marduk the son. Three animal icons associated with the three Sun ‘gods’ are: the lion for the goddess, the bull for the father, and dragon for the son.

- The three sacred Vedic energy manifestations – Tamas (inertia, darkness, destruction), Rajas (preservation, movement, dynamic), and Satvas (creation, existence, order, purity).

Trinity has been part of religious thought for ever. People cannot grasp it because it's meaningless so they go to great lengths to give long winded explanations. It would have made more sense if the early Israelites who believed Ashera was the consort of Yahweh were able to continue their beliefs into the 2nd temple period when the OT was re-worked, adding Persian and Greek concepts. Then it would have been Yahweh, Ashera, Jesus.


There were many other Gods around before this period in Judaism but they were not to be worshipped
Exodus 34:14 has it: "For thou shalt worship no other god: for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God."

But at the beginning of the 2nd temple period they decided there was only one God,
I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God” (Isaiah 44:6).


Ah, Ashera, from the Wiki 2nd temple page:

"There was a sharp break between ancient Israelite religion and the Judaism of the Second Temple.[37] Pre-exilic Israel was polytheistic;[38] Asherah was probably worshiped as Yahweh's consort, within his temples in Jerusalem, Bethel, and Samaria, and a goddess called the Queen of Heaven, probably a fusion of Astarte and the Mesopotamian goddess Ishtar, was also worshiped.[39] Baal and Yahweh coexisted in the early period but were considered irreconcilable after the 9th century.[40] The worship of Yahweh alone, the concern of a small party in the monarchic period, only gained ascendancy in the exilic and early post-exilic period,[38] and it was only then that the very existence of other gods was denied.[41]"


During that period they also got the idea for Jesus from the Persians:


"The Persian period saw the development of expectation in a future human king who would rule purified Israel as God's representative at the end of time – that is, a messiah. The first to mention this were Haggai and Zechariah, both prophets of the early Persian period. They saw the messiah in Zerubbabel, a descendant of the House of David who seemed, briefly, to be about to re-establish the ancient royal line, or in Zerubbabel and the first High Priest, Joshua (Zechariah writes of two messiahs, one royal and the other priestly). These early hopes were dashed (Zerubabbel disappeared from the historical record, although the High Priests continued to be descended from Joshua), and thereafter there are merely general references to a Messiah of (meaning descended from) David."

 

[Soapy]

Because what your doing is presuming unitarianism every time you say ' God ' . You think only the Father is God .

John 10:36:

• “what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'?”

GOD, the Father of the created, SET APART JESUS CHRIST AS HIS OWN…

• Consecrated
• Sanctified
• Made Holy

This is, of course, the event at the river Jordan where Jesus was ANOINTED with Holy Spirit if God AND WITH POWER, and a voice from Heaven said:

• ‘This is my Son in whom I am well pleased!’

Which tallies with Isaiah 42:1 where GOD, the Father prophesied:

• HERE IS MY SERVANT in whom my heart delights, MY CHOSEN ONE ON WHOM I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT…

Jesus, preaching at the Festival of Tablenacles (John 17…)

• 16Jesus answered, “My teaching is not my own. It comes from the one who sent me.

(God consecrated Jesus and sent him into the world - that is, against the evil world)

• 17Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.
• 18Whoever speaks on their own does so to gain personal glory, but he who seeks the glory of the one who sent him is a man of truth; there is nothing false about him.

Really, John 1.12, you can’t see the truth in front of your eyes?

 

[Marcion]

- The three sacred Vedic energy manifestations – Tamas (inertia, darkness, destruction), Rajas (preservation, movement, dynamic), and Satvas (creation, existence, order, purity).

This cannot be compared to the Christian Holy Trinity.
It is no "sacred Vedic energy manifestation" but part of (tantric) spiritual philosophy about the relationship between Consciousness and Creation.

God is pure Consciousness beyond space and time.

Within God however at one point the Cosmic Mind came about and within that Cosmic Mind the sense of being ("I-ness") was formed. This pure sense of being without any thought or form is called Sattva (sentient principle - 'I am').
From this pure sense of being or Sattva came the sense of doing or creating. This is called Rajas ('I am doing'), the creative principle.
From this creative principle or Rajas came the sense of doership called Tamas ('I have done') or the static principle.

These three principles, 'I am', 'I do' and 'I have done' then combined in triangles to bring forth matter and energy and thus the universe with all that is in it including living beings.

Every particle contains these three principles and the influence of Tamas is increased as matter condenses.
But in the minds of living beings, the distribution slowly shifts in the opposite direction from the dominance of Tamas towards the dominance of Rajas and then towards the dominance of Sattva.

This results in ever higher life forms and eventually the transcendence of all of the three principles back into the pure Cosmic Consciousness which is spiritual liberation of the individual (Jesus calls this the (return to the) 'Rule of God').
In a way life is the reversal of Tamas into Rajas into Sattva, whereas the creation of matter and energy in the universe goes in the opposite direction. This is also called the Circle of Creation or Brahmachakra.

 

[Soapy]

There is nothing man cannot "grasp". Theologians cannot fully explain the holy spirit because it's nonsense. I've watched priests give talks on it and they go around in circles saying it's "this" but then it isn't "that", it "this"....blah blah blah...
What it is is another syncretic borrowing from older religions:

The three major Hindu Gods are Brahma, Vishnu and Siva - Creator, Sustenance and Destroyer.


We find the concept of trinity in many other beliefs systems:

- the Egyptian Trinity of a transcendental god Amun that also manifests as Ra and Ptah. Of God Ra that has a daughter Maat (Wisdom, Knowledge) that is a consort or sister of God Thoth (Divine Word or Logos of Ra). This was soon replaced with Osiris, Isis and Horus.

- the Greek Trinity consisting of Zeus (the God), Hera (the Goddess) and Hercules (their son)

the Babylonian holy Trinity consisting of Ninki (later became Ishtar) the mother, Enki (later became Namakh) the father, and Marduk the son. Three animal icons associated with the three Sun ‘gods’ are: the lion for the goddess, the bull for the father, and dragon for the son.

- The three sacred Vedic energy manifestations – Tamas (inertia, darkness, destruction), Rajas (preservation, movement, dynamic), and Satvas (creation, existence, order, purity).

Trinity has been part of religious thought for ever. People cannot grasp it because it's meaningless so they go to great lengths to give long winded explanations. It would have made more sense if the early Israelites who believed Ashera was the consort of Yahweh were able to continue their beliefs into the 2nd temple period when the OT was re-worked, adding Persian and Greek concepts. Then it would have been Yahweh, Ashera, Jesus.


There were many other Gods around before this period in Judaism but they were not to be worshipped
Exodus 34:14 has it: "For thou shalt worship no other god: for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God."

But at the beginning of the 2nd temple period they decided there was only one God,
I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God” (Isaiah 44:6).


Ah, Ashera, from the Wiki 2nd temple page:

"There was a sharp break between ancient Israelite religion and the Judaism of the Second Temple.[37] Pre-exilic Israel was polytheistic;[38] Asherah was probably worshiped as Yahweh's consort, within his temples in Jerusalem, Bethel, and Samaria, and a goddess called the Queen of Heaven, probably a fusion of Astarte and the Mesopotamian goddess Ishtar, was also worshiped.[39] Baal and Yahweh coexisted in the early period but were considered irreconcilable after the 9th century.[40] The worship of Yahweh alone, the concern of a small party in the monarchic period, only gained ascendancy in the exilic and early post-exilic period,[38] and it was only then that the very existence of other gods was denied.[41]"


During that period they also got the idea for Jesus from the Persians:


"The Persian period saw the development of expectation in a future human king who would rule purified Israel as God's representative at the end of time – that is, a messiah. The first to mention this were Haggai and Zechariah, both prophets of the early Persian period. They saw the messiah in Zerubbabel, a descendant of the House of David who seemed, briefly, to be about to re-establish the ancient royal line, or in Zerubbabel and the first High Priest, Joshua (Zechariah writes of two messiahs, one royal and the other priestly). These early hopes were dashed (Zerubabbel disappeared from the historical record, although the High Priests continued to be descended from Joshua), and thereafter there are merely general references to a Messiah of (meaning descended from) David."

And, of course, the anglicized name, “Jesus”, is originally, “Joshua” …

And ‘Jesus Christ’ was anointed to be both ‘High Priest to God’ and ‘King over creation’.

 

[Soapy]

I will have to correct you there, NOT Jesus did so but only some early Christians did, who wrote down their BELIEF in the Christian scriptures.
I choose however to see those beliefs as created fantasy, meant to keep the likes of you under the spell of their created religion.
And you buy it, that is your choice.
There are too many of such religious fantasies around for me to be impressed by your enthousiasm.
As we say in Dutch, it is nothing but 'baked air' to me (stories that sound good but are actually meaningless).

I’m not understanding what you are grousing about.

All I said was that Jesus IS NOT GOD, and gave my reasons against those that @John 1.12 sadly was extremely mistaken in.

What is wrong with that?

It is not for anyone to say, ‘I don’t believe in religion so I don’t think what you say is right!’ - what is that to say in a religious debate forum?

 

[Marcion]

I’m not understanding what you are grousing about.

All I was doing was correcting your remark that Jesus was saying such and such.
It is not Jesus who speaks in the New Testament, but Christians who are pretending that Jesus said stuff.
This is not an exceptional idea, many theologians agree with it.
Especially when you use CAPITALS as if you are speaking with some type of authority you need to be corrected.

 

[John1.12]

Hello!!! I don’t just ‘THINK’ that only the Father is God - JESUS CHRIST and the Scriptures tell us so:

1. “[FATHER], …. This means eternal life, that they believe in YOU, THE ONLY TRUE GOD….” (John 17:3)
2. “For us, there is ONLY ONE GOD; THE FATHER….” (1 Cor 8:6)
3. “For there is ONE God [The Father], and ONE MEDIATOR [Jesus Christ] between God and men, THE MAN Christ Jesus.” (1 Timothy 2.5)

In 1., the previous two verses sets the scene in which Jesus Christ is praying to his God and Father (one person… by reverential title (God) and by dutiful reference (Father)):

• (17:1) After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you.

Jesus acknowledges GOD as his spiritual Father. He prays that GOD should glorify HIM (The Father’s Son)… so that in doing so the Son RETURNS that glory to the Father… GOD GIVES AND GOD REQUIRES THE RETURN OF WHAT HE GIVES. The glory that God gives should be reflected back by a dutiful son of God. It can hardly be said that the first RECEIVER is EQUAL TO the first SENDER. No! The SENDER is GREATER than he who he SENDS TO (else do you say that the Apostles are EQUAL TO THE FATHER when they RECEIVE the gift of the Father at Pentecost?)

• (17:2) For you granted him authority over all people [SO THAT] he might give eternal life to all those you have given him.

Jesus acknowledges that the Father, his God, GRANTED him the authority that he received from the Father. And that it is this GRANTING that allows him to GIVE LIFE to those whom he WILL GIVE ETERNAL LIFE TO at the judgement seat at the end of time.

This leads to verse 3 wherein Jesus states emphatically that the eternal life he will grant to believers DEPENDS on the believers acknowledging THE FATHER AS THE ONLY TRUE GOD, and, acknowledging that Jesus Christ (himself) IS the MESSIAH, the CHRIST, that THE FATHER SENT.

And note carefully that there is ONLY ONE GOD - the Father. No one, and certainly not THREE persons, are named as ‘GOD’. Trinity has no explanation as to why, if a trinity god is three persons, only one is acknowledged as ‘ONLY TRUE GOD’.

And, indeed, the apostles also acknowledge that the Father is the ONLY TRUE GOD, their ONLY GOD and Father, AND that Jesus is MAN, and mediator between GOD - and - man.

It is certainly true that:

• GOD IS NOT A MEDIATOR

… else BETWEEN WHOM is GOD MEDIATING??

The truth: Jesus Christ is the only sinless holy and righteous being, a man consecrated BY GOD, his spiritual Father, and mediates between

• ALMIGHTY GOD who cannot look upon sin

and:

• Sinful man who cannot look upon ALMIGHTY GOD

And here is more truth:

• Jesus says to pray TO THE FATHER for our needs, for aid in our wellbeing, to ease our suffering, to help us resist sin
• Jesus says to pray this way IN HIS (Jesus’) NAME to the Father

This “pray in Jesus’ name” means the following:

1. In ACKNOWLEDGEMENT of the Son of God as the mediator
2. In RIGHTEOUSNESS
3. In TRUTHFULNESS
4. In HONESTY
5. In SELFLESSNESS
6. In REVERENCE

Jesus Christ acts as a GATEWAY, a FILTER, a MONITOR for our prays so that ONLY those prayers conforming entirely to items 1 to 6 EVER REACH THE SPIRITUAL EAR OF THE FATHER, the Spiritual ear of GOD.

Jesus Christ is the true mediator - and a mediator is not the GOD whom he mediates FOR.

Again . Here is the errors your making when you assume unitarianism.
1 ) Taking verses about the humanity of Jesus , as if that means he was not also divine .
2 ) Not understanding the God head
3 ) Quoting partial verses out of Context .

Jesus takes on humanity. God in the flesh . .

 

[Soapy]

All I was doing was correcting your remark that Jesus was saying such and such.
It is not Jesus who speaks in the New Testament, but Christians who are pretending that Jesus said stuff.
This is not an exceptional idea, many theologians agree with it.
Especially when you use CAPITALS as if you are speaking with some type of authority you need to be corrected.

Marcion, what we as Christians believe is what we believe the as christians.

We are not debating OTHER religious beliefs (although it is true that some versions of Christianity certainly are like ‘a different religion’)

The debate IN THIS THREAD post is concerning what the WRITTEN COMMON BOOK (Bible, Torah, Scriptures, Old Testament, New Testament) we as Christians obtain our information about what we believe.

And for this reason (though I cannot control what is said in each persons posts) we DO NOT INCLUDE EXTERNAL MATERIAL such as Creeds, or ‘what Tom, dick, or Harry’ says… but ONLY what the HOLY BOOK we adhere to says.

The controversy between beliefs that causes disharmony is due to differing interpretations of what the gospels say and mean… and certainly what the OP started off with:

• ‘What did Jesus mean by….’

Again, certainly this requires no criticism from those who DO NOT BELIEVE in Jesus Christ (a man made immortal by our God) or whom we call, ‘Our Only God’ as Father of all things.

I am sure there are plenty of posts or threads in appropriate (non-)belief sections where you can discuss you non-belief in this forum. You are welcomed to aire your views there. But this section is for debates WITHIN the common grounds of those who DO BELIEVE.

There would be absolutely no point in having a debate if the common theme was ‘I don’t believe there was a Jesus nor that he said anything that you say he said’….

CHRISTIANITY is about what Jesus said:

• ‘Father…. This means eternal life that they should believe in you, the only true God, and in Jesus Christ whom you sent’

And we, Christians, firmly believe that Jesus spoke those words and that we believe in those words. We may disagree with interpretations of the words but the words are sacrosanct.

 

[Marcion]

Marcion, what we as Christians believe is what we believe the as christians.

We are not debating OTHER religious beliefs (although it is true that some versions of Christianity certainly are like ‘a different religion’)

If you use a false or illogical argument, you should always expect to be corrected.
Calling it a belief is not going to save you from that, so get real.

 

[Soapy]

Again . Here is the errors your making when you assume unitarianism.
1 ) Taking verses about the humanity of Jesus , as if that means he was not also divine .
2 ) Not understanding the God head
3 ) Quoting partial verses out of Context .

Jesus takes on humanity. God in the flesh . .

Trinitarians fling the ‘divine’ word around but really have no idea what they mean by it.

Jesus expressly states that the things he does is because the Father is with him and in him. Yet Trinitarians say that Jesus is ‘divine’ which presumably is their errored version of ‘Being God’.

Yet the scriptures tells us that Jesus was anointed with the Holy Spirit AND WITH POWER…

And also that God said he would put his Holy Spirit on him - which we see at the baptism of Jesus…. Yet Trinitarians say he was ALREADY GOD before he was empowered BY GOD…

The Godhead…. NO TRINITARIAN CAN EXPLAIN WHAT THE GODHEAD IS.

John 1.12, can you explain what the Godhead is?

Which verse(s) have I quoted out of context? The verses that prove against you?

 

[Trailblazer]

Jesus takes on humanity. God in the flesh . .

Trailblazer said: There are so many reasons that Jesus cannot be God and I already posted some of the many verses to this Christian a few months ago.

Samtonga43 said:

1. Matthew 1:23
2. Mark 2:5-7
3. John 1:1
4. John 5:18
5. John 20:27-29
6. Philippians 2:5-7
7. Colossians 1:15
8. Colossians 2:9
9. 2 Peter 1:1
10. Hebrews 1:3

(Read all in context, of course).

You cannot avoid it, Tb. You can quibble about what these passages might mean, but there is a pattern here of claims about Jesus that could only be true of God.

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Trailblazer said: I guess you really wanted to make a lot of work for me, but you only ended up disproving that Jesus was God.

1. Matthew 1:23
23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Jesus was “God with us” because He was a Manifestation of God and the Spirit of God with us, but He was not God in the flesh.

“The Christian equivalent to the Bahá'í concept of Manifestation is the concept of incarnation. The word to incarnate means 'to embody in flesh or 'to assume, or exist in, a bodily (esp. a human) form (Oxford English Dictionary). From a Bahá'í point of view, the important question regarding the subject of incarnation is, what does Jesus incarnate? Bahá'ís can certainly say that Jesus incarnated Gods attributes, in the sense that in Jesus, Gods attributes were perfectly reflected and expressed.[4] The Bahá'í scriptures, however, reject the belief that the ineffable essence of the Divinity was ever perfectly and completely contained in a single human body, because the Bahá'í scriptures emphasize the omnipresence and transcendence of the essence of God. "
Jesus Christ in the Bahá'í Writings

2. Mark 2:5-7
5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.
6 But there were certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts,
7 Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?

The scribes were saying that only God can forgive sins so they thought it was blasphemy for Jesus to say that He could forgive sins. That does not mean Jesus was God, not even in the ball park.

3. John 1:1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:1 refers to God, not to Jesus.

John 1 King James Version (KJV)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Those verses are about God, not about Jesus. All things were made through God since God created the heavens and the earth.

The Holy Spirit and the Word are the appearance of God. The Spirit and the Word mean the divine perfections that appeared in Jesus Christ, and these perfections were with God. The Word does not mean the body of Jesus but rather the divine perfections manifested in Jesus. Jesus was like a clear mirror and the divine perfections were visible and apparent in this mirror. That is why Colossians 1:15 says “Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:” Jesus was a mirror image of God, but an image is not what it reflects.

4. John 5:18
18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

The Jews thought that Jesus was claiming to be God because Jesus said that God was His Father, but being the Son of God does not mean Jesus was God. It means that Jesus is not God.

5. John 20:27-29
27 Then saith he to Thomas, reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

That is a flimsy attempt to say Jesus was God if I have ever seen one! Just because Thomas said “My Lord and my God” that does not mean Jesus was God! If you cannot figure out why that does not prove anything, then you need a course in logical proofs.

6. Philippians 2:5-7
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Jesus was in the “form of God” and that means Jesus was not God, because a form is not what it is a form of.

7. Colossians 1:15
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Jesus was in the “the image of God” and that means Jesus was not God, because an image is not what it is an image of.

8. Colossians 2:9
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

ESV For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily,

NIV For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,

The Bible says that God is sprit so it cannot lives in bodily form! Besides that all of God could not “dwell” in a man!

9. 2 Peter 1:1
1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

This is another verse that disproves Jesus being God. It says “God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.” It does not say “God our Saviour Jesus Christ.” That shows that God is separate from Jesus, which means Jesus cannot BE God.

10. Hebrews 1:3
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Again, if Jesus was “the express image is God” that means Jesus was not God, because an image is not
equivalent to what it is an image of.

#1800 Trailblazer

(Continued on next post)

 

[Trailblazer]

You cannot avoid it. (Read all in context, of course). You can quibble about what these passages might mean, but there is a pattern here of that proves that Jesus was not God.

Jesus claimed to reveal God, Whom He called Father, but Jesus differentiated Himself from God:

John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself, even so gave he to the Son also to have life in himself:

John 8:40 But now ye seek to slay me, a man that have spoken to you [the] truth, that I heard of God; Abraham did not this thing.

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

John 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.

Jesus said that God was greater than He was:

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Matthew 4:10 Jesus said to him, 'Away from me, Satan! For it is written: "Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only."

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

How could Jesus pray to and go to the Father if Jesus WAS the God the Father?

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

John 16:16 A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Moreover, Jesus said that no man has ever seen God:

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

1 John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

Jesus said He was from God and that God sent Him, again differentiating Himself from God:

John 17:3 And eternal life means to know you, the only true God, and to know Jesus Christ, whom you sent.

John 7:28 Then cried Jesus in the temple as he taught, saying, Ye both know me, and ye know whence I am: and I am not come of myself, but he that sent me is true, whom ye know not. 29 But I know him: for I am from him, and he hath sent me.

Jesus even stated specifically that the Father had knowledge which was not possessed by the Son.

Matthew 24:36 No one knows about that day or hour, not even the Son, but the Father only.

Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

Jesus referred to Himself as a Prophet, and was so regarded. Jesus never referred to Himself as God.

Matthew 13:57 And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.

Luke 13:33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.

Matthew 21:11 And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee.

Luke 7:16 And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people.

Jesus IS NOT God Bible Quotes... Continued:

2 Corinthians 1:3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;

1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

2 Corinthians 11:31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.

Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

Acts 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Ephesians 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

Romans 15:6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

Hosea 11:9 I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city.

Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

#1801 Trailblazer

 

[Soapy]

You cannot avoid it. (Read all in context, of course). You can quibble about what these passages might mean, but there is a pattern here of that proves that Jesus was not God.

Jesus claimed to reveal God, Whom He called Father, but Jesus differentiated Himself from God:

John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself, even so gave he to the Son also to have life in himself:

John 8:40 But now ye seek to slay me, a man that have spoken to you [the] truth, that I heard of God; Abraham did not this thing.

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

John 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.

Jesus said that God was greater than He was:

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Matthew 4:10 Jesus said to him, 'Away from me, Satan! For it is written: "Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only."

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

How could Jesus pray to and go to the Father if Jesus WAS the God the Father?

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

John 16:16 A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Moreover, Jesus said that no man has ever seen God:

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

1 John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

Jesus said He was from God and that God sent Him, again differentiating Himself from God:

John 17:3 And eternal life means to know you, the only true God, and to know Jesus Christ, whom you sent.

John 7:28 Then cried Jesus in the temple as he taught, saying, Ye both know me, and ye know whence I am: and I am not come of myself, but he that sent me is true, whom ye know not. 29 But I know him: for I am from him, and he hath sent me.

Jesus even stated specifically that the Father had knowledge which was not possessed by the Son.

Matthew 24:36 No one knows about that day or hour, not even the Son, but the Father only.

Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

Jesus referred to Himself as a Prophet, and was so regarded. Jesus never referred to Himself as God.

Matthew 13:57 And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.

Luke 13:33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.

Matthew 21:11 And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee.

Luke 7:16 And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people.

Jesus IS NOT God Bible Quotes... Continued:

2 Corinthians 1:3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;

1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

2 Corinthians 11:31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.

Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

Acts 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Ephesians 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

Romans 15:6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

Hosea 11:9 I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city.

Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

#1801 Trailblazer

Excellent post, Trailblazer.

How is it that with so many words and verses outlining exactly who Jesus is and who the Father is, and yet people reading the same words and verses still say Jesus is God… even when Jesus himself flatly denies saying that he was God or insinuating any such thing.

And the man-god believers cannot see that they are spouting pagan beliefs even as they deny pagan worship!

They cannot define whom they call their God but even when the scriptures declares it clearly to them.

For instance, The God, the Almighty spiritual personage that is our focus worship - the deity who is our creator whom we call Father (and ‘Father’ means ‘He who creates; he who gives life; he who is the head…’) is ‘SPIRIT’, and the creator, the Father, of Spirits, there are those out there who say, ‘No, he is man’ (aka: Jesus).

Ask them what ‘Father’ means… They will hesitate and come up with a malicious or at least disingenuous answer.

Nonetheless, ask them if Jesus is Father… they say,

• ‘Don’t be absurd, no, of course not!”

Yet ask them who created all things and they will say, ‘Jesus, of course’.

Then ask why Jesus is not called ‘Father’?

They will refer you to the verse in Isaiah wherein the messiah, the Son to be given, is referred to as ‘Eternal Father’…. They know what this means but it’s their only response that they can give…

Of course, you, I, AND THEY, know that this refers to the end of time when Jesus GIVES ETERNAL LIFE TO those whom he deems worthy for his kingdom.

Since one of the definitions of ‘Father’ is ‘He who gives life to..’ and since the life that Jesus will give to those whom he chooses will be an ETERNAL LIFE, Jesus is rightly entitled AT THAT TIME, as prophesied by prophets of the almighty God, to be called ‘ETERNAL FATHER’.

Why would anyone argue with such a beautiful reward for the ignominy and death that Jesus suffered. Indeed, those naysayers are doing exactly what Satan tried to tempt Jesus with in the wilderness: To be sat on the throne of the world BEFORE completing the task he was assigned to do…

I can write more but this should suffice as I can see so far that you are a truth believer.

 

[Trailblazer]

How is it that with so many words and verses outlining exactly who Jesus is and who the Father is, and yet people reading the same words and verses still say Jesus is God… even when Jesus himself flatly denies saying that he was God or insinuating any such thing.

The best I can say is that they have been indoctrinated by the Church so they cannot see it any other way. They have been taught that Jesus is God, even though it makes absolutely no sense at all that God could become a man and it is not supported by the scriptures in any way. When asked why the Trinity cannot be understood they will just say that the Trinity is a mystery since they cannot explain it so that it makes sense.

In short, these Christians do not believe what Jesus said, they believe what the Church teaches, what it has taught from the third century onward.

 

[natasha levchenko]

Hi Natasha, you are right that the scriptures are the word of God…. But be careful and take note of what Jesus says about ‘Wolves in Sheep's clothing’.

Anything you have even an inkling of a doubt about, check for a corresponding verse elsewhere in the Scriptures. If you cannot find one then treat the verse you were reading as suspicious.

For instance, Trinitarians claim that Jesus said he would raise himself from the dead.

Do you believe that?

What does the scriptures say about Jesus being raised from the dead? Does it say that Jesus raised himself from the dead?

I think you will find the answer is ‘NO’.

So what does it say?

Doesn’t it say that the Father raised up Jesus?

So if you are going to believe Trinitarians then Jesus would need to be the Father!!!

So what did Jesus mean by saying he would raise up the TEMPLE in three days.

Note carefully that Jesus DID NOT SAY that he would raise himself up in three days - or at all - it is TRINITARIANS that say that Jesus said that… and it turns out, as you see, that Jesus did not raise himself up…

Jesus was speaking of the ‘temple of the true worship of his Father, GOD’, which means Jesus cannot be God if his Father is God… and it was GOD that raised up Jesus from the dead!!

Explanation: After Jesus died, the disciples SCATTERED for fear that their Lord and Master was gone…. Yes, the ‘Temple of truth’ was pulled down…

But what happened after Jesus was raised up again by God? Jesus REVIVED the temple of truth by showing himself to the disciples….

That is what Jesus meant - AND what he did!

Natasha, that is an example of how you check the validity of what you read in the scriptures.

Thanks a lot for your concern))) I sincerely appreciate it!
I always study the Bible carefully. I never take the Bible for granted.
Jesus instructed his disciples to share with others the light of divine truth that they had received from him. “You are the light of the world,” he said. “Let your light shine before men.” (Matt. 5:14-16; Acts 13:47)This is an important matter because, as Jesus Christ said, people’s prospects for eternal life depend on their knowing the only true God and the one whom he sent forth,Jesus Christ.
Today millions of people may “have a zeal for God; but not according to accurate knowledge.They need to come to know “the only true God,” and to learn how to serve him properly.
I also pray before reading and studying the Bible;so that I could understand the Scriptures properly . I’m proud to be a Christian who’s aware of “”wolves in sheep clothing “ who like to distort the information)

 

[joelr]

This cannot be compared to the Christian Holy Trinity.
It is no "sacred Vedic energy manifestation" but part of (tantric) spiritual philosophy about the relationship between Consciousness and Creation.

God is pure Consciousness beyond space and time.

Within God however at one point the Cosmic Mind came about and within that Cosmic Mind the sense of being ("I-ness") was formed. This pure sense of being without any thought or form is called Sattva (sentient principle - 'I am').
From this pure sense of being or Sattva came the sense of doing or creating. This is called Rajas ('I am doing'), the creative principle.
From this creative principle or Rajas came the sense of doership called Tamas ('I have done') or the static principle.

These three principles, 'I am', 'I do' and 'I have done' then combined in triangles to bring forth matter and energy and thus the universe with all that is in it including living beings.

Every particle contains these three principles and the influence of Tamas is increased as matter condenses.
But in the minds of living beings, the distribution slowly shifts in the opposite direction from the dominance of Tamas towards the dominance of Rajas and then towards the dominance of Sattva.

This results in ever higher life forms and eventually the transcendence of all of the three principles back into the pure Cosmic Consciousness which is spiritual liberation of the individual (Jesus calls this the (return to the) 'Rule of God').
In a way life is the reversal of Tamas into Rajas into Sattva, whereas the creation of matter and energy in the universe goes in the opposite direction. This is also called the Circle of Creation or Brahmachakra.

Combined in triangles to form matter and energy? Cool story, just needs evidence. Interjecting consciousness into quantum fields or excited parts of the field (or does the whole field have it as well?) sounds made up.

Why would this result in higher life forms? Evolution doesn't trend toward higher life forms it trends towards whatever can survive and adapt better.

 

[joelr]

And, of course, the anglicized name, “Jesus”, is originally, “Joshua” …

And ‘Jesus Christ’ was anointed to be both ‘High Priest to God’ and ‘King over creation’.

Yes, myths taken from the Persians were folded into Israelite theology and a Jewish version of the savior demigod movement was formed.