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What makes you sure ?
- Thread starter chinu
- Start date
InformedIgnorance
Do you 'know' or believe?
Nothing makes me 100% certain; however I have seen no evidence I would consider even partially credible to indicate that the reverse is at all likely to happen not just to me but to any organism. Given that, I live my life with the reasonable assumption that my current life is all that I will experience of existence; that when I die, my consciousness will be unable to persist and that there is no other facet of my 'essence' or some such that will continue on without the (physical) medium needed to contain the characteristics, the information and cognitive capacities and so forth that make me me.
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Thief
Rogue Theologian
I've been blind seven days....did not stop 'seeing'.
I've known my limbs when they were cold and unresponsive...I did not stop 'feeling'.
The question then sought would be....do my thoughts and feeling go on after the last breath?
I believe so.
There are too many copies of a learning device...the body...to assume each occasion will fail completely.
Billions of copies...and no chance of surviving the last breath?
Billions to none?
I've known my limbs when they were cold and unresponsive...I did not stop 'feeling'.
The question then sought would be....do my thoughts and feeling go on after the last breath?
I believe so.
There are too many copies of a learning device...the body...to assume each occasion will fail completely.
Billions of copies...and no chance of surviving the last breath?
Billions to none?
InformedIgnorance
Do you 'know' or believe?
Are you talking about the survival of the species (the billions) or the survival of the individual (the one)
If the billions, then in a way they persist by virtue of passing on that which we have obtained through civilization, our centers of learning and so forth. If the individual, how do you believe such a thing (not merely the knowledge we learned and recorded for prosperity in books and so forth, but the memories and cognitive capacities that makes an individual itself) persists without the body to act as the container / storage and processing medium?
If the billions, then in a way they persist by virtue of passing on that which we have obtained through civilization, our centers of learning and so forth. If the individual, how do you believe such a thing (not merely the knowledge we learned and recorded for prosperity in books and so forth, but the memories and cognitive capacities that makes an individual itself) persists without the body to act as the container / storage and processing medium?
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Alceste
Vagabond
What makes you sure that you will not get any new birth after your death ? or what makes you sure that you will not exist somewhere after your death ?
Doesn't matter.
chinu
chinu
Ok, which type of evidence do you need to consider it as 100% certain ?
chinu
chinu
Why, doesn't matter ? Alceste.
chinu
chinu
Good point.
InformedIgnorance
Do you 'know' or believe?
While for all intents and purposes I am functionally certain there is no afterlife (I live my life under the impression that there is no afterlife due to the extremely significant confidence I have that there is nothing to suggest there might be one), I can never be absolutely 100% certain it is not possible - because it is a completely unfalsifiable proposition.
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chinu
chinu
This is one sided decision you are making, Further, to continue the topic am just asking you that if there would have been evidence for this, than which type of evidence would make you 100% sure ?
If nothing can make you 100% sure, than it means that you don't want to tell me anything.
InformedIgnorance
Do you 'know' or believe?
I am not suggesting it is 100% possible to be certain there is no afterlife - I am suggesting it is not possible to be 100% certain that there is no afterlife
Because the very concept of becoming certain, of obtaining definitive evidence in order to inform my reasoning capabilities to make a decision on whether or not I hold an afterlife to be possible - is one that would require that I be dead before obtaining the information for evaluation; which of course is a process which would not be possible without cognitive function, thus if I was indeed to die and not have cognitive function it would be impossible for me to know.
I have said it might be possible (despite believing it extremely unlikely that it is) for there to be an afterlife, nothing can make me 100% sure either way... I do not know what you are asking me.
Because the very concept of becoming certain, of obtaining definitive evidence in order to inform my reasoning capabilities to make a decision on whether or not I hold an afterlife to be possible - is one that would require that I be dead before obtaining the information for evaluation; which of course is a process which would not be possible without cognitive function, thus if I was indeed to die and not have cognitive function it would be impossible for me to know.
I have said it might be possible (despite believing it extremely unlikely that it is) for there to be an afterlife, nothing can make me 100% sure either way... I do not know what you are asking me.
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Me Myself
Back to my username
T be fair, chinu is presenting a reasonable question and it comes with the question , where is the burden of proof lying here?
I only know consciousness, and have no reason to think it will end with my body.
Sure, I cant evidence it wont, but I sure cannot evidence it will either,
Given consciousness is all we know, and we have no evidence to think it is going to end, why think it will?
InformedIgnorance
Do you 'know' or believe?
Well, 'to be fair' I have stated each time, I am NOT 100% certain it does not exist.
I cannot understand why this might be considered something other than fair; all I have done is to state that the concept is unfalsifiable. There is NO way to falsify the concept in the abstract form (though more specific afterlife concepts may perhaps be falsified if they provide falsifiable concepts such as reputedly observable, predictable phenomena, the abstract super-set of afterlife concepts as a whole does not share this capacity to be falsifiable). Thus, since the abstract concept as a whole cannot be falsified, I am not 100% certain there is no afterlife. How could this be considered something other than fair? I am not saying it doesnt exist, only that it can never be shown to not exist.
I do not believe that there is a burden of proof on ANYONE - unless they are attempting to persuade someone to believe their claim. I am not attempting to persuade anyone that there is no afterlife - because I cannot be sure that is the case. I might, however (if so inclined) attempt to persuade someone that there is no credible evidence of an afterlife, that is an entirely different thing, and not an argument I have attempted to proselytize as it were. Instead, I was asked what makes me 'sure', I answered that question with my own reservations about the capacity to BE sure.
I cannot understand why this might be considered something other than fair; all I have done is to state that the concept is unfalsifiable. There is NO way to falsify the concept in the abstract form (though more specific afterlife concepts may perhaps be falsified if they provide falsifiable concepts such as reputedly observable, predictable phenomena, the abstract super-set of afterlife concepts as a whole does not share this capacity to be falsifiable). Thus, since the abstract concept as a whole cannot be falsified, I am not 100% certain there is no afterlife. How could this be considered something other than fair? I am not saying it doesnt exist, only that it can never be shown to not exist.
I do not believe that there is a burden of proof on ANYONE - unless they are attempting to persuade someone to believe their claim. I am not attempting to persuade anyone that there is no afterlife - because I cannot be sure that is the case. I might, however (if so inclined) attempt to persuade someone that there is no credible evidence of an afterlife, that is an entirely different thing, and not an argument I have attempted to proselytize as it were. Instead, I was asked what makes me 'sure', I answered that question with my own reservations about the capacity to BE sure.
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Me Myself
Back to my username
Sure, and I might if I am so inclined try to persuade someone by pointing out there is no evidence that consiousness ends with the body.
I understand you said you are not 100% sure of your position, I just wonder, why do ou feel it is the most likely.
By syaing you dont think anyone has the burdeof proof, I assume you dont see a logical reason why it is more likely, but at e same time expressing your feelings about it( feelings of levels of certainty) you express to be more inclined to feel there is no afterlife, givethere is no evidence.
So I am asking about that. I am not saying you are saying you are sure of your position , my question is not a debate if you will, it is a direct question out of curiiosity.
I understand you said you are not 100% sure of your position, I just wonder, why do ou feel it is the most likely.
By syaing you dont think anyone has the burdeof proof, I assume you dont see a logical reason why it is more likely, but at e same time expressing your feelings about it( feelings of levels of certainty) you express to be more inclined to feel there is no afterlife, givethere is no evidence.
So I am asking about that. I am not saying you are saying you are sure of your position , my question is not a debate if you will, it is a direct question out of curiiosity.
InformedIgnorance
Do you 'know' or believe?
I am not 100% certain of the position: 'there is no afterlife' - but I am as close to 100% certain as is possible of my own position: 'there is probably no afterlife'
There is a great deal humanity as a whole (let alone I as a single individual) does not know; there is also much that we have at times believed we knew but later discovered was incorrectly believed either the result of belief systems or because of misconceptions about the nature of our universe. Thankfully however humanity has managed to develop the most important tools we could ask for to refine our understanding of existence: logic, philosophy, critical examination, methodological analysis... the capacity to examine our preconceptions, to identify misconceptions and to expand the domain of human knowledge.
There is nothing to suggest there exists any form of supernatural energy, element or dimension to existence - there is a great deal we don't understand, but nothing suggests comprehension is not (theoretically at least) possible of any phenomena in our existence, nor that the rules by which they operate can not be discerned. Yet unfasifiable concepts are a direct contradiction of this - they hold to be even theoretically impossible to disprove.
There is a great deal we know we do not know, and many things that we currently believe will be revised over the years to reflect a more accurate understanding of the universe as we obtain new knowledge - yet proposing a domain of phenomena that cannot (even in principle) be rationally examined is to hold assertion to be beyond 'mere' reason. In a way such a mindset seeks to maintain that despite the readily evidenced success of the capacity of the human mind to refine knowledge, that assertion of a non falsifiable concept is of itself worth entertaining for no other reason than that it has been created in such a way as to be unfalisfiable.
It does not mean that such unfalsifiable concepts are of necessity false; and indeed for those who are emotionally invested in such things, I hope it helps them; that does not make an unfalsifiable assertion worthy of my rational consideration.
There is a great deal humanity as a whole (let alone I as a single individual) does not know; there is also much that we have at times believed we knew but later discovered was incorrectly believed either the result of belief systems or because of misconceptions about the nature of our universe. Thankfully however humanity has managed to develop the most important tools we could ask for to refine our understanding of existence: logic, philosophy, critical examination, methodological analysis... the capacity to examine our preconceptions, to identify misconceptions and to expand the domain of human knowledge.
There is nothing to suggest there exists any form of supernatural energy, element or dimension to existence - there is a great deal we don't understand, but nothing suggests comprehension is not (theoretically at least) possible of any phenomena in our existence, nor that the rules by which they operate can not be discerned. Yet unfasifiable concepts are a direct contradiction of this - they hold to be even theoretically impossible to disprove.
There is a great deal we know we do not know, and many things that we currently believe will be revised over the years to reflect a more accurate understanding of the universe as we obtain new knowledge - yet proposing a domain of phenomena that cannot (even in principle) be rationally examined is to hold assertion to be beyond 'mere' reason. In a way such a mindset seeks to maintain that despite the readily evidenced success of the capacity of the human mind to refine knowledge, that assertion of a non falsifiable concept is of itself worth entertaining for no other reason than that it has been created in such a way as to be unfalisfiable.
It does not mean that such unfalsifiable concepts are of necessity false; and indeed for those who are emotionally invested in such things, I hope it helps them; that does not make an unfalsifiable assertion worthy of my rational consideration.
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What makes you sure that you will not get any new birth after your death ? or what makes you sure that you will not exist somewhere after your death ?
No one is sure, as far as I'm aware at least.
If anyone needs evidence all we need to do is look inside an atom. This is what we are all made of. I think you will be extremely shocked. Also realise that everything is dual, so has a positive and negative force. If these forces are balanced then they cancel eachother out to form a neutral or 'divine' state. I urge you to raise your vibrational frequency.
We are all energy. Therefore,
E = MC2
Energy = mass + Speed of light (c)
If we reduce mass by raising our vibrations we become light!!
The science speaks for itself.
We are all energy. Therefore,
E = MC2
Energy = mass + Speed of light (c)
If we reduce mass by raising our vibrations we become light!!
The science speaks for itself.
Hello Chinu,
What am "I"? Well, let's see.
Am I a body? Am I a mind? Am I a soul? If I am only one of these things, then how can it be determined that I am not the other things as well?
Or am I all three of these things at once? If so, then don't "I" dissolve whenever the composite ceases to function harmoniously together?
What makes you sure that you will not get any new birth after your death ? or what makes you sure that you will not exist somewhere after your death ?
What am "I"? Well, let's see.
Am I a body? Am I a mind? Am I a soul? If I am only one of these things, then how can it be determined that I am not the other things as well?
Or am I all three of these things at once? If so, then don't "I" dissolve whenever the composite ceases to function harmoniously together?
YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
Though I have a very high level of certainty on this topic, I am in no way 100% sure of the outcome. My point is, I know what "I" am and so the need for passion plays has ended. Aside from this, I can't quite explain to you or anyone what it is like to be in your "last" lifetime. The only thing I can assure you of is that when you find yourself at that juncture, you will know it. That said, I'm not a big fan of certainty, but in this area it has seemed to stick.
I would never say such a thing for starters, LOL. You have my personal assurance that I will be, within certain constraints, wherever I wish to be.or what makes you sure that you will not exist somewhere after your death ?
The bottom line is that even if I do decide to come back for one more romp around the block, NO ONE else will force the decision on me. It will be my choice and my choice alone.
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