What makes you sure ?

[OurCreed]

@ourcreed

I did, it is still unclear and makes huge assumptions which need explanation and/or justification - for example why would having a conscious necessitate the existence of an afterlife; there re significant explanations needed for the reasoning used (but certainly not presented) to make such conclusions.

God created you before when you were absolutely nothing.

He created your soul and then breathed life into it, and sent that soul to a body on Earth.

When you die, don't you think God has the power to re-claim that soul again that HE Himself created?

There is one story that has been remembered and retold.

Anyway, it goes like this.

There was one man who lived up to a very old age, and he himself was very worried because he had committed so many sins in his life, it would be impossible for him to enter the paradise in the next world.

So he told his sons that when he finally dies, take his body, and burn it.

Then collect all the ashes, and throw it in the sea. The reason the man said this was that he feared that God would take his soul up and throw him in the fire.

So the man thought that if his body would be split into a million pieces in the form of ashes, and then every ash would be scattered in the ocean, it would be impossible for God to take every particle of ash and reassemble his body on the Day of Resurrection.

So the day finally came where the man died, and his sons, obeying their father, laid their father's corpse on a sheet, and burned his entire body until there was nothing left of him except the ashes and smoke.

The boys collected the ashes and put it in a container and went to the sea and threw the ashes into the sea.

However, the man ended up being resurrected anyway by God Himself!

God had called the man to Him, and the man was shaking with intense fear before The Lord.

God had said, "Why did you tell your sons to burn your body and throw the remains in the sea?"

The man said, "O God, I had done so many sins and I feared you would reassemble me to punish me, so I ordered my sons to scatter my ashes so that you wouldn't be able to reassemble me again."

God said, "Do you think that I would not be able to reassemble you, even though I was the one who had created you out of a sperm drop before whence you were nothing? Very well, I have forgiven you, every sin, and you may enter My Paradise."

This story tells us two things.

First, that God has the power to do all that He Wills. He has the power to take every single particle of that man's body and reshape him into what he was previously to judge him on the Day of Resurrection, nothing it out of the power of God, nothing can detain God.

The second thing that this tells us, is that God is EXTREMELY Merciful.

God saw the innocence in this man's heart, and this pleased Him entirely, so he had forgiven every single sin the man committed, because the man truly feared God, and God loves those who fear him.

 

[InformedIgnorance]

Interesting; but why would I believe that I or anyone else for that matter has a 'soul' since I am not even clear on what one is let alone why I would need one.

 

[OurCreed]

Interesting; but why would I believe that I or anyone else for that matter has a 'soul' since I am not even clear on what one is let alone why I would need one.

What makes you different than an animal?

 

[InformedIgnorance]

My brain has developed more significant cognitive capabilities - that is the only real difference.

 

[OurCreed]

My brain has developed more significant cognitive capabilities - that is the only real difference.

And why not the animals? There are millions of different types of species of animals...

How come only humans?

 

[InformedIgnorance]

If there are animals with similar degrees of brain development then they are not so different from us - regardless of their form.

 

[OurCreed]

If there are animals with similar degrees of brain development then they are not so different from us - regardless of their form.

And have these animals advanced as greatly as humans have?

 

[InformedIgnorance]

I take it you refer to brain development (a mouse is just as evolved as a human in a wholistic sense, you would need to narrow down the area of development that you were referring to in order to suggest one was somehow 'more' developed)- none that I am aware of; however the fact that other animals have not evolved their cerebrium, their hippocampus or their medial temporal lobe to the extent we have does not indicate anything other than that we have a genetic advantage over them when it comes to cognitive faculty - it does not indicate the existence of a 'soul' or any other characteristic by which to determine that we are in any way 'better' than for example a goat, but rather that we have significantly more advanced intellectual and perhaps emotional capabilities.

 

[OurCreed]

I take it you refer to brain development (a mouse is just as evolved as a human in a wholistic sense, you would need to narrow down the area of development that you were referring to in order to suggest one was somehow 'more' developed)- none that I am aware of; however the fact that other animals have not evolved their cerebrium, their hippocampus or their medial temporal lobe to the extent we have does not indicate anything other than that we have a genetic advantage over them when it comes to cognitive faculty - it does not indicate the existence of a 'soul' or any other characteristic by which to determine that we are in any way 'better' than for example a goat, but rather that we have significantly more advanced intellectual and perhaps emotional capabilities.

Exactly.

If I asked these same questions to an animal in their own way of communication, do you think they would know the answer?

 

[InformedIgnorance]

To an animal on earth?

(Asuming for a moment, they beleived that you were one of their own species rather than a human) They would probably be aware of human development due to our domination of the planet (they could likely see the extent to which we are able to form complex things and create 'unnatural' phenomena - things that scare them, the thunder of cars and so forth) so they would probably be able to identify not just themselves but us as well as being intelligent beings - but they may not have the mental faculty by which to understand what you mean by such concepts that are so far divorced from the reality of their every day life even if they DID have similarly developed cognitive capacity, where I do not believe any animal on earth has been shown to have extensive faculty to the extent that it could be comparable.

I must admit though to being somewhat intrigued by how you think to link this to the concept of an afterlife; because at the moment I believe the two concepts quite removed.

 

[OurCreed]

To an animal on earth?

(Asuming for a moment, they beleived that you were one of their own species rather than a human) They would probably be aware of human development due to our domination of the planet (they could likely see the extent to which we are able to form complex things and create 'unnatural' phenomena - things that scare them, the thunder of cars and so forth) so they would probably be able to identify not just themselves but us as well as being intelligent beings - but they may not have the mental faculty by which to understand what you mean by such concepts that are so far divorced from the reality of their every day life even if they DID have similarly developed cognitive capacity, where I do not believe any animal on earth has been shown to have extensive faculty to the extent that it could be comparable.

I must admit though to being somewhat intrigued by how you think to link this to the concept of an afterlife; because at the moment I believe the two concepts quite removed.

According to us religious folks...God created this entire universe for us humans, to test us.

Everything else that is created is meant for our benefits. God created certain animals to be eaten by us, some animals to help us like the bees and worms, some animals control the population of the animal kingdom.

Everything God created in this world, has a purpose, a purpose to SERVE us humans.

We can already see, not only animals, but everything serves us humans.

Look, the trees produce oxygen for us humans through the process of photosynthesis. Not only for us humans, but for all land animals.

Similarly, we produce CO2 for the trees so that they can continue producing oxygen for us! It is a never ending cycle. And look how perfectly it was designed as the universe was created.

The Sun serves us. Not only us, but the entire Earth. The Sun gives is light, warmth, and is responsible for growth, as well as photosynthesis as I have just mentioned. Without the Sun, there'd be no life.

The Moon serves us in many ways. First, it provides us with light at night so that we can see. It also controls the tides of the sea. Also, we use it to determine the time in our calendars.

I can go on and on.

The bee, this miraculous insect produces something called honey, and science shows how great of a disease killer this honey can be, it has so much medical properties and benefits for US humans.

Now we humans actually have the capabilities of understanding the significance of many many things in this universe and using it for our own benefits.

However, everything else is not capable of this power. This is why humans have progressed, and animals have stayed being animals. It was meant to be like this.

If there was no Creator that was governing all of this, then that means animals and other life forms had the same possible chances of being just like us humans.

But no, only humans are the unique mammals, and although many animals have their own 'unique' abilities, it is still not comparable to the advancements that have been brought forth by humanity.

The after life consists of Paradise, and the Hellfire, and we will enter one depending on our conclusive Judgement from God. If we were good, we enter paradise, if we were bad, to the Hellfire, though Hell is temporary.

How it relates?

See animals are doing what they are supposed to be doing. There is no morality that exists for animals and other creations within this universe.

However, there is one for humans, it is like...we are being judged, we are being watched over our actions.

Our sole dominance over this Earth shows us, that we are what we are for a purpose. Our SOULS are more conscious and aware of WHAT really is going on in this world.

I am pretty sure an animal doesn't know what the 'universe' is, let alone the Big Bang, or...God.

So how is it possible that the Earth just happened to have one dominant species, and the rest have all stayed the way they are? All humans are one, one specie, though different races, we really are just one.

The intelligent designer that was behind all of this, has to exist. This wasn't by chance, it wasn't random. This creator DOES exist, and we are indeed being judged, because we CAN be compared with other living organisms such as animals.

 

[InformedIgnorance]

It is no more valid to suggest that the entirety of existence is for the purposes of human use than it is to say that the entirety of existence is for the continued use by goats. All of your discussion about air and trees, the sun and moon all apply to animals and even plants - to suggest humans are somehow special is merely to serve our own interests and there is nothing in nature to suggest that our own rather beneficial development of advanced cognitive capacity grants us greater authority in some respect.

Other animals DO have the capacity to one day evolve similar intellectual capacity as our species have done, the most likely candidate species for such an evolution is probably another from the great apes. And other animals have not 'stayed' the way they were, back before there were individuals of the species that we would call homo sapiens, other animals too had reached a different point in their evolutionary status than they do now. We managed to evolve as the only individual species with significant cognitive capacity, why that is is not certain (though if we HAD managed to have a intelligent competitor species we would likely have murdered them all) - it certainly doesnt indicate that we are special in any way.

You yourself allude to the idea that like our minds, it is we humans that seem to have ideas about morality, it is our minds that determine such things that does not mean that we are being judged or that we have souls, all it means is that our cognitive capabilities are able to identify what we and others find desirable and the potential impacts of our actions and those of others.

 

[johnhanks]

According to us religious folks...God created this entire universe for us humans, to test us.

Everything else that is created is meant for our benefits. God created certain animals to be eaten by us, some animals to help us like the bees and worms, some animals control the population of the animal kingdom.

Everything God created in this world, has a purpose, a purpose to SERVE us humans...

Mycobacterium tuberculosis and the malarial parasite are doing a darned fine serving job, aren't they?

 

[Quintessence]

According to us religious folks...

Stop. Stop right there. Because according to this "religious folk" I strongly disagree with many of the statements you make after this presumptuous phrase. In fact, if my religion had a concept of blasphemy, the blatant anthropocentrism and disrespect of the gods demonstrated by the rest of this post would definitely fall under that category.

So no, not "according to us religious folks." According to you, and your perspective. You're free to them, but for the love of the gods, don't claim to speak for all of "us religious folks." You don't.

 

[OurCreed]

Mycobacterium tuberculosis and the malarial parasite are doing a darned fine serving job, aren't they?

Don't question the authority of The Source, it is all under His Will.

 

[johnhanks]

Don't question the authority of The Source, it is all under His Will.

Why are you posting on a debate forum when your mind is closed to debate?

 

[InformedIgnorance]

Don't question the authority of The Source, it is all under His Will.

This sort of approach to disagreement might 'cut it' with one of the DIR forums, however as johnhanks notes, it is not a suitable attitude for a debate (or even a general discussion) forum - if you believe that it cannot be legitimately questioned or have inquiries made about it and peripheral issues, then there is no point discussing the issue at all. All that such an attitude means is that people are more likely to ignore your comments, it may not change the validity of the position, but it certainly undermines the openness with which people will examine any argument you might forward.

He has a very valid point - there are certainly many aspects of existence, such as parasites and dangerous microbes which do not 'serve' humans; you might perhaps suggest these are part of the 'test' in some way (as opposed to the service aspect), but to simply assert that we should not question your claim is incredibly lazy, arrogant and ineffectual. If you are unwilling to provide the justification for your reasoning then so be it - but your assertion will not hold weight for most people unless you are willing to provide reasons (and often evidence) for people to believe your argument.