What makes you think Islam is a false religion?

[MFaraz_Hayat]

Exactly, there is no other religion either in the past or in modern times that is this intolerant and savage. This is why if there ever was a false religion, Islam is it. Islam has more in common with Nazism than it has with divinity.

A religion which is suppose to be divine would never have things like this. This is what my own religion says:

O citizens of the world!
Live in harmony and concord.
Be organized and cooperate
Speak with one voice
(Rig 10.191.2)

If something is divine it would not be telling you to go around on killing sprees and damning most of the worlds population.

Your religion is not divine in my opinion. It is the antithesis of it.

Bravo! Bravo! misquoting my original post..... did you even bother reading it. This just proves how intent you are, on proving that Islam is wrong. That regardless of any evidence presented, you'll just say "Islam is bad"............
Here is my original post (read it fully):
Obviously none...... Don't you get it? Islamic system tells us about ow to setup and run a state(apart from religious philosophies)! First of all you show me a religion that talks about having it's own state (as in a religious political state, ordained by God) then we'll continue the argument. Islam is not only about religious philosophy. It is a complete code, for individuals to state. If a state is charging taxes (to those living on it's land) is it wrong?
Plus, the word fight is a mis-translation. The arabic word Jihad used, means to strive(if you don't believe me, feel free to consult a dictionary)..........
I will never take your example of being a good Hindu. You go against the very things forbidden in your religion. You misquoted me, the Quran and propagated lies.

 

[Surya Deva]

Again, you portray lack of comprehension.

I will give you a scenorio. I am a 5 year old Arabic boy in Afghanistan and I pick up the Quran and read this:

Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

I then then grow up and join an Islamic terrorist group fighting against the non-belivers. Is it because I misunderstand what I read or did exactly what I was told to do by Allah?

 

[MFaraz_Hayat]

I will give you a scenorio. I am a 5 year old Arabic boy in Afghanistan and I pick up the Quran and read this:

Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

I then then grow up and join an Islamic terrorist group fighting against the non-belivers. Is it because I misunderstand what I read or did exactly what I was told to do by Allah?

At a young age, islam pardons any sin. However, once you have grown older, you must have had the chance to read the other verses as well. Or are you implying that in his entire life, that you only get to read this verse of the Quran and choose to follow it blindly.... (impractical example)

 

[Surya Deva]

and choose to follow it blindly

There is nothing blind about it: Fight the non-believers. If I am fighting them I am doing exactly what I have been told.

Which verse contradicts this Faraz?

 

[MFaraz_Hayat]

There is nothing blind about it: Fight the non-believers. If I am fighting them I am doing exactly what I have been told.

Which verse contradicts this Faraz?

The many verses I gave before, which state that muslims should never begin hostilities. They should never fight those, who are not fighting them. And even in the fight are supposed to show kindness. Plus, when he grows up he can read the Quran and understand that this verse talks of Islamic state.........

 

[Surya Deva]

Then post those verses again so I can see them. I have not seen any verses that contradict "Fight the non believers" yet.

 

[darkendless]

At a young age, islam pardons any sin. However, once you have grown older, you must have had the chance to read the other verses as well. Or are you implying that in his entire life, that you only get to read this verse of the Quran and choose to follow it blindly.... (impractical example)

So it would be easy to forgive the sins of an adolescent suicide bomber? Is that why children as young as 14 are recruited by extremist Islamic militants?

Im pretty sure theres some hypocrisy in your statements, saying Muslims never begin fights is a rather bold statement. So wars against Israel in the past were not started by Muslims? I do not see any kindness is those that call themselves muslims and murder western people trying to stop muslims from starving to death and living in poverty. If Islam wants to be left alone should we leave your "Islamic states" and watch your people suffer?
Please do not contradict me with verses, they're meaningless, use you head and tell me what you think?

 

[kadzbiz]

My question at post #400 has not been answered yet.

 

[stacey bo bacey]

My question at post #400 has not been answered yet.

Join the club!

 

[Riverwolf]

Again, we see a demonstration of hanging on small certain verses at the expense of all others. I equate that with hanging onto a single sentence to describe an entire philosophy in a 500,000 word book.

I'm reading the Qur'an right now. While there are things in it I disagree with, I can say that the ones to whom violence is directed to are people who are hostile themselves towards Islam. Unbelievers who aren't violent or hostile towards Muslims so far haven't been mentioned at all.

 

[.lava]

Let me just ask this simple question, can I as a non-muslim live in peace in a muslim occupied region?

hi it depends. if Sharia was applied according to Qur'an, you'd peacefully live. if a Muslim nation was ruled by ignorant bigots, then even being a Muslim would not guarantee that. so to speak, if there was wrong-doings, it effects everyone.


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[.lava]

Again, we see a demonstration of hanging on small certain verses at the expense of all others. I equate that with hanging onto a single sentence to describe an entire philosophy in a 500,000 word book.

I'm reading the Qur'an right now. While there are things in it I disagree with, I can say that the ones to whom violence is directed to are people who are hostile themselves towards Islam. Unbelievers who aren't violent or hostile towards Muslims so far haven't been mentioned at all.

this is what i was trying to explain. people keep bringing verses about war. that is true, if there was war and if people were killing your people then yes, Muslims are commanded to fight back. even though they are not commanded to fight all the disbelievers. they were commanded to fight those who start war and fight them.

God does not forbid you from being good to those who have not fought you over religion or driven you from your homes, or from being just towards them. God loves those who are just. God merely forbids you from taking as friends those who have fought you over religion and driven you from your homes and who supported your expulsion. Any who take them as friends are wrongdoers. (Qur'an, 60:8-9)

If any of the associators ask you for protection, give them protection until they have heard the words of God. Then convey them to a place where they are safe…. As long as they are straight with you, be straight with them. God loves those who do their duty. (Qur'an, 9:6-7)


if there was no war, then God commands us to keep peace and not to break it. in a peaceful nation, killing a man is considered as killing entire humanity.

"...if someone kills another person-unless it is in retaliation for someone else or for causing corruption in the earth-it is as if he had murdered all mankind..." (Qur'an, 5:32)

Seek the abode of the hereafter with what God has given you, without forgetting your portion of the world. And do good as God has been good to you. And do not seek to cause corruption in the earth. God does not love corrupters. (Qur'an, 28:77)


Then, is it to be expected of you, if you were put in authority, that you will do mischief in the land, and sever your ties of kinship? Such are the people God has cursed, making them deaf and blinding their eyes. (Qur'an, 47:22-23)


There are only grounds against those who wrong people and act as tyrants in the earth without any right to do so. Such people will have a painful punishment. (Qur'an, 42:42)

dictatorship and tyranny has no place in Islam. if some Muslims ignored that and turn a land into a battle zone and in case if they killed public, i am sorry to say they have nothing to do with Islam. you either follow the book or you don't.


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[kai]

I am afraid for all the verses for this and verses for that aside, if one looks at the history of Islam it must give you a perspective on how the Quran is interpreted by Muslims themselves, It has been a history of military expansionism from Arabia under the Rashidun and Umayyad Caliphs Muslim dynasties were soon established and subsequent empires such as those of theAbbassids ,Almoravids, Seljuks,Moguls, in India and Safavids in Persia and Ottoman were among the largest and most powerful in the world.

Muslims tell me this was all peaceful and benign or they were not Islamic at all.History tells me otherwise.Empires are not made by self defence! they are made by conquest.

Self defense is a very important notion to understand in Islam because of the idea of the Ummah "the Islamic community" , self defense can be used as a reason to attack just about anywhere or anyone for a Muslim with the inclination to feel the justification in doing so. If the Ummah is under Attack in Afghanistan Iraq,Palestine,the Balkans, then it can be seen as his duty to use violence to defend the Ummah.

Even at Glasgow airport if need be.


you can stand there and explain how Islam is the religion of peace till you are blue in the face ,and do not mean to offend anyone but the evidence to the contrary is a little overwhelming. Or how do so many Muslims get the irrefutable word of God so wrong?

 

[Riverwolf]

Personally I think the problems started at the beginning, after the Qur'an was fully revealed. Once Muslims started quarreling amongst themselves, they immediately lost the path by demonizing each other, as well as other "non-believers". Just like Jesus said, a nation divided is doomed to fall.

I defend the Qur'an and the Islam religion, not the political leaders who claimed (and to an extent still claim) to follow it. I do not defend any of its political expansions any more than I defend the crusades. But neither do I let the crusades decide my opinion of the Bible; so neither will I let whatever bloody history Islam has decide my opinion of the Qur'an.

I only defend the Qur'an, and what it's supposed to be. But as I always say, there's a difference between the way things should be and the way things actually are.

So, Kai, however the "muslims" get the word of God wrong, they clearly did get it wrong in the past, and many still do.

 

[.lava]

I am afraid for all the verses for this and verses for that aside, if one looks at the history of Islam it must give you a perspective on how the Quran is interpreted by Muslims themselves, It has been a history of military expansionism from Arabia under the Rashidun and Umayyad Caliphs Muslim dynasties were soon established and subsequent empires such as those of theAbbassids ,Almoravids, Seljuks,Moguls, in India and Safavids in Persia and Ottoman were among the largest and most powerful in the world.

Muslims tell me this was all peaceful and benign or they were not Islamic at all.History tells me otherwise.Empires are not made by self defence! they are made by conquest.

Self defense is a very important notion to understand in Islam because of the idea of the Ummah "the Islamic community" , self defense can be used as a reason to attack just about anywhere or anyone for a Muslim with the inclination to feel the justification in doing so. If the Ummah is under Attack in Afghanistan Iraq,Palestine,the Balkans, then it can be seen as his duty to use violence to defend the Ummah.

Even at Glasgow airport if need be.


you can stand there and explain how Islam is the religion of peace till you are blue in the face ,and do not mean to offend anyone but the evidence to the contrary is a little overwhelming. Or how do so many Muslims get the irrefutable word of God so wrong?

hi i do not know all about it, Kai. Seljuk and Ottoman, i am familiar with and you know why. but, for example Moguls are known as wild and vicious. i am afraid they really were. so what they brought maybe was corruption. but i can not say that for Ottoman. they did not ended justice, they brought justice to the lands where people were ruled by a few rich families. they ended tyranny. it was not public who stood against them. poor ones were suffering. it was only those dictators who did not want to lose their power. each individual is equal in Islam, that's the only reason why dictators did not like the idea. rich would be equal to poor. rich would be judged in case they commit crime. you could not put a rich guy in prison back then. no matter what crime he committed, he would not even be judged. but you are right, it is conquest. yet conquest was not to make people convert Islam.


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[kai]

hi i do not know all about it, Kai. Seljuk and Ottoman, i am familiar with and you know why. but, for example Moguls are known as wild and vicious. i am afraid they really were. so what they brought maybe was corruption. but i can not say that for Ottoman. they did not ended justice, they brought justice to the lands where people were ruled by a few rich families. they ended tyranny. it was not public who stood against them. poor ones were suffering. it was only those dictators who did not want to lose their power. each individual is equal in Islam, that's the only reason why dictators did not like the idea. rich would be equal to poor. rich would be judged in case they commit crime. you could not put a rich guy in prison back then. no matter what crime he committed, he would not even be judged. but you are right,

it is conquest. yet conquest was not to make people convert Islam.

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Hello Lava,you mean it was a by product? a coincidence? I think people have on the whole, a tendancy to take on the attributes of their conquerers especialy if that conquest last hundreds of years

 

[.lava]

Hello Lava,you mean it was a by product? a coincidence? I think people have on the whole, a tendancy to take on the attributes of their conquerers especialy if that conquest last hundreds of years

no coincidence. if a king ruled a nation with dictatorship, he would not let other beliefs to enter there, especially if those beliefs preaching equality among people.

would you please explain your point more? (English failure )


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[.lava]

there is no need trying to convince me.I KNOW THAT I am far too educated to take your arguments seriously. I think everybody can see how tolerant Islam is and how good its adherants are from this dialogue. If yesterday one was trivalising the masscre of 20,000 people by Muslims slander, today one is justifying taxation of non-Muslims slander.

I think the world needs to ask itself why should it be tolerant of something which is the paragon of intolerance.

Non-Muslim Observation About The Reality of The Spread of Islam


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[Surya Deva]

I defend the Qur'an and the Islam religion, not the political leaders who claimed (and to an extent still claim) to follow it. I do not defend any of its political expansions any more than I defend the crusades. But neither do I let the crusades decide my opinion of the Bible; so neither will I let whatever bloody history Islam has decide my opinion of the Qur'an.

As far as I know in the New testimant there are not 161 verses on killing non-believers.

The Crusades were political indeed, but I don't see sanction for it in the bible where it says, "Love thy neighbour" If you look at the earliest history of Christianity it is a very peaceful religion. It is not until Constantine adopts it that violence can be seen in Christian history.

With Islam it is different. Not only is there a lot of sanction for intolerance and killing non-believers, the earliest history itself from the life and times of Mohammed is full of violence for non-believers. I believe I have already posted letters sent by Mohammed himself to various countries to convert to Islam or face dire consequences.

I think it is very presumptious of everybody to keep saying everybody but the Muslims who want to insist their religion is peaceful is wrong. Why would Muslims following their own religion get is so wrong all the time? When in fact Mohammed himself has a history of violence and threats(The Hadiths record many murders commited by the man himself) are we to take the opinions of a few Modern liberal Muslims over what real Islam says?

The truth is these are the opinions of westernized Muslims apologising for their religion, but even these apologies are nothing more than denials and justifications. I think the world should sit up and take notice that if even liberal Muslims are justifying such savagry, what are the orthodoxy like. I think you would genuinely be shocked if you sat amongst orthodox Muslims and gauged their opinion on terrorism etc. In Muslim countries, where hatred for religious minorities is extreme. That hatred is coming from somewhere.

I really don't understand why the world should tolerate the paragon of intolerace. It is clear for everybody to see that Islam has very fundamentally wrong aspects to it that need to be addressed for it to join the modern world. All other religions have reformed and changed, so why not Islam?

 

[Renji]

Why would you reject Islam?

Probably your belief on Jihad (holy war). Would you kill a being created by God (through war) to extend/spread your religion? I have many Muslim friends but I wasn't able to ask them so , I want an answer here.