What makes you think Islam is a false religion?

[Surya Deva]

I just wanted to answer the OP's question:

I think Islam is a false religion, because I cannot reconcile divinity with violence, bloodshed, extreme hate, mayhem and destruction, and I know of no other religion which has such a bloody history and so many(hundreds of) injunctions on killing in its holy scripture. As well as the gross injustice towards women.

I think all religions have a mixture of truthness and falsity, but if there is a religion which contains more falseness, as per my opinion, then it is Islam. This is just my humble opinion.

 

[.lava]

So what other people are and do have no role whatsoever on whether we love or hate them? Is that what you are saying?

i am not saying it has no role, i am saying it should not. if we depend on conditions, we could not truly know who we are. we only know how we react. better to be the act. sincerely loving even the one who hates you is the highest level of submission/Islam.


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[LuisDantas]

i am not saying it has no role, i am saying it should not. if we depend on conditions, we could not truly know who we are. we only know how we react. better to be the act. sincerely loving even the one who hates you is the highest level of submission/Islam.

I happen to believe that we largely are what our conditions make of us.

 

[.lava]

I happen to believe that we largely are what our conditions make of us.

yes, i know that. but it is not unavoidable. this is pretty much one of the basics of our practices. we call that process purifying ego. at the end one shall be eye of the hurricane. i believe, just because of this, people should spend time in solitude to realize what's within.


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[tariqkhwaja]

I just wanted to answer the OP's question:

I think Islam is a false religion, because I cannot reconcile divinity with violence, bloodshed, extreme hate, mayhem and destruction, and I know of no other religion which has such a bloody history and so many(hundreds of) injunctions on killing in its holy scripture. As well as the gross injustice towards women.

I think all religions have a mixture of truthness and falsity, but if there is a religion which contains more falseness, as per my opinion, then it is Islam. This is just my humble opinion.

Humble opinion, eh?

Most of what you have said is an exaggeration of two key points:
1. Why Islam permits violence under certain circumstances?
2. Women's rights.

I have pointed you to the thread on women's rights several times and implored you to respond to the OP there. You haven't ... what can I say?

As far as violence is concerned it is taught in all schools (and maybe in Hindu schools too, I don't know) that standing up to bullies is a virtue and not a vice. And in that case I think reconciling the Divine with violence (or rather violence in defense) becomes easier.

And opening the "MahaBharata" is enough to learn about the Hindu wars. And Krishna ... what about Krishna. I can't see how you can forget Krishna's battles. I just can't see how that violence and its relation to the Divine does not bother you at all. Really Suraj ... I was told you would irritate me but frankly I feel sorry for you. You are quite unlucky I think. I hope I am wrong.

 

[Surya Deva]

As far as violence is concerned it is taught in all schools (and maybe in Hindu schools too, I don't know) that standing up to bullies is a virtue and not a vice. And in that case I think reconciling the Divine with violence (or rather violence in defense) becomes easier.

I agree standing up to bullies is a virtue Hinduism teaches this too. The Mahabharata is all about standing up to bullies. The Vedas also tell us to stand up against violence.

But sorry there is no sanction anywhere for indescriminate killing. I don't think I've seen sanction for indescriminate killing in any religion except Islam. Even the old testimant isn't as bad.

Sorry it is just my opinion I have not seen so much violence in any other religion as I've seen in Islam. I think you can understand based on that why I would consider it false.

 

[MFaraz_Hayat]

I agree standing up to bullies is a virtue Hinduism teaches this too. The Mahabharata is all about standing up to bullies. The Vedas also tell us to stand up against violence.

But sorry there is no sanction anywhere for indescriminate killing. I don't think I've seen sanction for indescriminate killing in any religion except Islam. Even the old testimant isn't as bad.

Sorry it is just my opinion I have not seen so much violence in any other religion as I've seen in Islam. I think you can understand based on that why I would consider it false.

And perhaps you will enlighten us with some verses of the Quran?

 

[Riverwolf]

Reading the Qur'an myself, it seems to me that the violence is directed towards people who are violent themselves towards muslims.

As for women's rights, it doesn't feel like oppression, but rather separation of the sexes. That men have their roles and women have their roles.

But I've only read the first five surahs, so who knows what I'll find next?

(oh, and if God is supposed to be all forgiving, he should also forgive idolaters, right? "God forgiveth not (the sin of) joining other gods with Him; but He forgiveth whom He pleaseth other sins than this..." 4.116 I don't agree with idolatry, but I forgive others not giving me credit where it is due... why can't God?)

 

[Surya Deva]

Hi Faraz, that debate is old now. I've already posted those verses and the history. I already know your argument that it is defensive. I am not convinced, actually most of the world isn't. I don't need any further arguments, my opinion is formed now. You can disagree, but my opinion is not changing.

 

[Riverwolf]

Hi Faraz, that debate is old now. I've already posted those verses and the history. I already know your argument that it is defensive. I am not convinced, actually most of the world isn't. I don't need any further arguments, my opinion is formed now. You can disagree, but my opinion is not changing.

Which post so I don't have to go searching through the hundreds of pages this thread already has gone through?

 

[Surya Deva]

Hi River, it has been an ongoing discussion spanning several threads. This is why I am tired of it. Just sift through my post history you will find it. I suggest you look at a website called Answering-Islam.com and read their sections on Islam and violence. Verses like "kill/fight/slaughter the infidels" are very common. About 150 verses on it.
Like I said I know of no other religion which contains so many verses on killing others.

 

[MFaraz_Hayat]

Hi Faraz, that debate is old now. I've already posted those verses and the history. I already know your argument that it is defensive. I am not convinced, actually most of the world isn't. I don't need any further arguments, my opinion is formed now. You can disagree, but my opinion is not changing.

Which posts? Please post the links. And obviously my argument/stance will be defensive........ I mean, aren't you on the accusing side?
The similitude of your statement is to a condition, where a person forms a a wrong idea and is not willing to even change his views (regardless of any arguments and how true they are). Sure, you can post verses (but all taken out of context). If taking out of context is the criteria, then any religious book can be considered false.............
Plus, your opinion is not that of the world........

 

[MFaraz_Hayat]

Hi River, it has been an ongoing discussion spanning several threads. This is why I am tired of it. Just sift through my post history you will find it. I suggest you look at a website called Answering-Islam.com and read their sections on Islam and violence. Verses like "kill/fight/slaughter the infidels" are very common. About 150 verses on it.
Like I said I know of no other religion which contains so many verses on killing others.

anti-islamic sites..... sure, no ones gonna get any biased info from them.

 

[MFaraz_Hayat]

Hi River, it has been an ongoing discussion spanning several threads. This is why I am tired of it. Just sift through my post history you will find it. I suggest you look at a website called Answering-Islam.com and read their sections on Islam and violence. Verses like "kill/fight/slaughter the infidels" are very common. About 150 verses on it.
Like I said I know of no other religion which contains so many verses on killing others.

BTW, their is a site called answering-christianity.com that has refuted every single claim.......

 

[Surya Deva]

Yes, I am aware of answering Christianity as well. Anyway there is no point trying to convince me, this is why I said it is my humble opinion. I have read enough now and engaged in enough debates with Muslims on this forum to know my opinion is right
I know of no other religion which is full of so much violence and nor do I know of a religion where its adherants actually justify indescrimate violence and terrorism.

As I said I cannot reconcile the idea of divinity with what I know about Islam. There are some people who call the Christian god a tyrant, but the Islamic god, I think a new word will need to be invented to describe it. 150 verses on killing non-believers, and a few more hundred on burning and torturing people in hell. He does soundn't like somebody I would ever like to meet in a whole eternity.

 

[MFaraz_Hayat]

Yes, I am aware of answering Christianity as well. Anyway there is no point trying to convince me, this is why I said it is my humble opinion. I have read enough now and engaged in enough debates with Muslims on this forum to know my opinion is right
I know of no other religion which is full of so much violence and nor do I know of a religion where its adherants actually justify indescrimate violence and terrorism.

As I said I cannot reconcile the idea of divinity with what I know about Islam. There are some people who call the Christian god a tyrant, but the Islamic god, I think a new word will need to be invented to describe it. 150 verses on killing non-believers, and a few more hundred on burning and torturing people in hell. He does soundn't like somebody I would ever like to meet in a whole eternity.

Believe in what you wish then. (that still doesn't make you right, till you prove your point)

 

[Sententia]

Believe in what you wish then. (that still doesn't make you right, till you prove your point)

You are an agnostic now? Welcome to the church of I don't know.

 

[Surya Deva]

I have proven my point

In fact just about a year ago I was defending Islam as much as others. I guess you could say I was a liberal and I could not stand it when a vast religion was accussed of terrorism. I would say things like, "No their religion preaches peace" but to be honest I had not read the Quran then. I just felt I had to defend it. But I cannot anymore not after learning about its history and actually reading what it says for myself.

If there ever was a false religion in my opinion that is Islam. I have read on many religions and I've not found one so violent and intolerant. I would become a Christian before I became Muslim. In the history of my country my people were put to death or had their babies heads cut off in front of them for refusing to accept Islam. Let's just say I too would rather accept death than accept Islam.

 

[MFaraz_Hayat]

I have proven my point

In fact just about a year ago I was defending Islam as much as others. I guess you could say I was a liberal and I could not stand it when a vast religion was accussed of terrorism. I would say things like, "No their religion preaches peace" but to be honest I had not read the Quran then. I just felt I had to defend it. But I cannot anymore not after learning about its history and actually reading what it says for myself.

If there ever was a false religion in my opinion that is Islam. I have read on many religions and I've not found one so violent and intolerant.

If you think that you have proven your point, by simply quoting stuff from answering-christianity or other such biased sites, then you are sadly mistaken.

 

[Surya Deva]

If you mean by stuff actual quotes from the Quran by translations rendered by Muslims themselves then sure. Nope sorry it is proven. The Quran is full of teachings which preach violence. I know of no other religion which does, certainly not to this extent:

[4.89] ...take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah’s way; but if they turn back [to their homes], then seize them and kill them wherever you find them...
[4.90] Allah has not given you a way against them [Allah supposedly does not allow Muslims to fight people friendly to Muslims]. [4.91]...seize them and kill them wherever you find them...


Excerpt K 8:005
Set 25, Count 58 Even as your Lord caused you to go forth from your house with the truth, though a party of the believers were surely averse;Excerpt K 8:007
Set 26, Count 59 ...Allah promised you one of the two (enemy) parties, that it should be yours: Ye wished that the one unarmed should be yours, but Allah willed to justify the Truth according to His words and to cut off the roots of the Unbelievers.Excerpt K 8:009-010
Set 27, Count 60+61 [8.9]...I will assist you [in Jihad] with a thousand of the angels following one another [see K 008:012]. [8.10] ...Allah only gave it as a good news and that your hearts might be at ease thereby; and victory is only from Allah; surely Allah is Mighty, Wise.Excerpt K 8:012
Set 28, Count 62 ...make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.Excerpt K 8:015-017
Set 29, Count 63-65 [8.15] ...when you meet those who disbelieve marching for war, then turn not your backs to them. [8.16] ...for the sake of fighting... [8.17] So you did not slay them, but it was Allah Who slew them, and you did not smite when you smote (the enemy), but it was Allah Who smote [Allah gets the credit for Jihad]...

8.65] O Prophet! urge the believers to war; if there are twenty patient ones of you they shall overcome two hundred, and if there are a hundred of you they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they are a people who do not understand [in other words, do not understand totalitarian ideologies like Islam]. [8.66] ...if there are a hundred patient ones of you they shall overcome two hundred, and if there are a thousand they shall overcome two thousand by Allah's permission... [8.67] It is not fit for a prophet that he should take captives unless he has fought and triumphed in the land; you desire the frail goods [i.e., ransom money] of this world... [8.68] ...ransom... [8.69] Eat then of the lawful and good (things) which you have acquired in war [war spoils]...[8.70] O Prophet! say to those of the captives [non-Muslims] who are in your hands: If Allah knows anything good in your hearts, He will give to you better than that which has been taken away from you [in Jihad]

Excerpt K 9:005
Set 33, Count 91 ...slay the idolaters wherever you find them...take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush...Excerpt K 9:012-014
Set 34, Count 92-94 [9.12] ...fight the leaders of unbelief...[9.13] What! will you not fight a people...[9.14] Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace, and assist you against them and heal the hearts of a believing people.Excerpt K 9:016
Set 35, Count 95 ...those of you who have struggled hard [in Jihad]Excerpt K 9:019-020
Set 36, Count 96+97 [9.19] ...strives hard in Allah's way?... [9.20]...strove hard [Jihad] in Allah's way with their property and their souls...Excerpt K 9:024-026
Set 37, Count 98-100 [9.24] ...striving in His way [Jihad]:, then wait till Allah brings about His command [to go on Jihad]: ... [9.25] Certainly Allah helped you in many battlefields and on the day of [the Battle of] Hunain, when your great numbers made you vain, ... [9.26] ...chastised those who disbelieved [Muhammad gives credit to angels and Allah for the actions of Jihadists]...
Fight those who do not believe in Allah...nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.Excerpt K 9:036
Set 39, Count 102 ...fight the polytheists all together as they fight you all together...Excerpt K 9:038-039
Set 40, Count 103+104 [9.38] ...Go forth in Allah's way [to Jihad]... [9.39] If you do not go forth [to go on Jihad], He will chastise you with a painful chastisement and bring in your place a people other than you [to go on Jihad]...

Go forth light [lightly armed] and heavy [heavily armed], and strive hard in Allah's way [Jihad] with your property and your persons...Excerpt K 9:044
Set 42, Count 106 ...striving hard with their property and their persons [Jihad] ...Excerpt K 9:052
Set 43, Count 107 ...Allah will afflict you with punishment from Himself or by our hands...Excerpt K 9:073
Set 44, Count 108 ...strive hard [Jihad] against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them...Excerpt K 9:081
Set 45, Count 109 ...they were averse from striving in Allah's way [Jihad] with their property and their persons, and said: Do not go forth [to Jihad] in the heat...Excerpt K 9:083
Set 46, Count 110 ... shall you fight an enemy with me [in Jihad]...Excerpt K 9:086
Set 47, Count 111 ...strive hard [in Jihad] along with His Apostle

A few hundred more here: "164 Jihad Verses in the Koran -- Passages in the Quran about Islamic Holy War" compiled by Yoel Natan

Sorry but I cannot reconcile this with divinity.