What makes you think Islam is a false religion?

[tariqkhwaja]

Oddly, we call those "fringe benefits" here in Canada.

You make it sound like he was pretty happy to receive those "fringe benefits". But if that is so then tell me why when the Angel Gabriel first came to him and told him to "Read" he simply said "But I cannot read"? Why didn't he gladly accept the responsibility about to be put on his shoulders? Why did he have to be shaken so hard for him to accept what was his destiny? And when he finally found out the responsibility that was put on his shoulders, why did he come all shaken up to his wife?

You said the angel treated him harshly. That was why it was harsh. Because, indeed, the burden placed on the shoulders of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) would have broken anyone else's back.

You believe they were hallucinations fine. But those illusions told Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) of the greatest burden he was to carry. If he was so happy with his soon to come power, why didn't he go celebrate with his wife instead of reaching her house in a stricken state?

By the way your last answer to my queries is still awaiting my reply, I think. Forgive me for the delay.

 

[YmirGF]

How absurd!

The Arabs offered Prophet Mohammed at the beginning of his message while he was still alone and weak, and Muslims are so few and poor, to make him the King of ALL arabs and to give him money, as much as he wants, and give him all the most beautiful women in arabia, just to do them one favor, which is to stop spreading this message called Islam.

What did prophet Mohammed say?

He said by God, if they put the sun on my right hand and the moon on my left, i would never give up this message till Allah spread it or i die while trying to do so.

Power? are you kidding me?!

You still think it was about power?

A poor man, like Mohammed, living in a small simple house, barely finding something to eat everyday. All what he was eating was dates and water, no meat, no fanc food, no fancy clothes, no fancy house, no nothing. He was fixing his own clothes by himself, was working so hard even after the Muslims' situation gotbetter and could have their own money and own city. You still say power? How delusional!

Um...
Muhammed married Khadijah, a successful merchant, in 595 AD
His vision of Gabriel in the cave on Mount Hira, wherein he was commanded to "read/recite" was in 610 AD
He began to preach in public in 613 AD and that is when the persecution began against him by his fellow Meccan's.
Muhammed and his followers migrated to Medina in 622 AD
Khadijah died in 623 AD

If Khadijah was a successful, highly respected, merchant and therefore probably wealthy, why was Muhammed mending his own clothes?

 

[tariqkhwaja]

If Khadijah was a successful, highly respected, merchant and therefore probably wealthy why was Muhammed mending his own clothes? Are you speaking about the time when he first got to Medina?

But that is the thing. His wealth was spent in alms giving to the poor and the needy. Himself, he kept hardly anything for himself. On his deathbed (when he was all powerful) he asked his wife if there was any money left. And she told him some small amount was left. And he told her to give it away as well for "what answer would I give God regarding that money" (gist).

 

[tariqkhwaja]

With all due respect then, how can anyone be expected to believe a single word that any of you are claiming then?

That is why in disputes I bring the original text of the Quran to support my claim in all my discussions with them because there is no dispute in the authenticity of that text between us Muslims. You decide for yourself then.

Um, even the famous Karen Armstong cites several of these elements although I do recall that she does not mention mental illness a single time.

The who? Some uniter of Abrahamic religions says something and that is your credibility? If you like scholars so much should I start quoting honest men (non-Muslims) who have studied his life and made their judgement? Some of whom were harsh critics of Islam.

 

[YmirGF]

The who? Some uniter of Abrahamic religions says something and that is your credibility? If you like scholars so much should I start quoting honest men (non-Muslims) who have studied his life and made their judgement? Some of whom were harsh critics of Islam.

Many Muslims like to quote Karen Armstrong, that is the only reason I cited her. In theory, she is pretty unbiased. As to the harsh critics... sure... fill yer boots.

 

[tariqkhwaja]

Many Muslims like to quote Karen Armstrong, that is the only reason I cited her. In theory, she is pretty unbiased. As to the harsh critics... sure... fill yer boots.

Well I see why you quoted her. I never heard of her till you mentioned it and did some research.
My boots? Is that a yes?

 

[YmirGF]

Well I see why you quoted her. I never heard of her till you mentioned it and did some research.
My boots? Is that a yes?

"Fill yer boots" = "Go for it" = "If you are so inclined"

 

[tariqkhwaja]

The Holy Prophet Muhammad(saw) in the Eyes of Non-Muslims

Instead of copy/pasting here. Problem is people don't read links and by experience I have seen that they would rather not have to go to a pointer. But that is their choice.

 

[Right_Path]

Yes. And whatever Muhammad followers may have added, after Muhammad's death.

The notion of Mohamed's followers adding something to the Quran after his death is unreasonable.

Take this as an example of the extreme conservativeness of prophet Mohamed's followers:

During Mohamed's life, the Quran was never written collectively, it was memorized by the companions of the prophet PBUH.
However, after his death, Abu Bakr suggested that the Quran must be collected in a unified book.

Omar protested against this at the very beginning, why?

''Would you do something the prophet has not done," said Omar.

After staudying the matter carefully, the operation was completed at last because Abu Bakr and Omar feared that any of the Quran would be lost.

Conclusion: If they were that cautious just over collecting the Quran in one piece, do you think they had the guts to alter something in it after Mohamed's death?

However, reading some of verses in regarding to Adam and Satan, or Solomon commanding army of jinns or communicating and commanding animals, makes me believe that this god of yours, love spinning tall tales. It sounds like from fairytales for children. They are the reasons why I don't believe in the Qur'an.

Well this depends on how you perceive it, as long as you read the verse from that narrow viewpoint, you will observe it like a child observes a fairytale.

But, for example, when you honestly look into Solomon's story (as well as every single story in the Quran), you will find out that its much more than a fairytale.


[27:18] When they approached the valley of the ants, one ant said, "O you ants, go into your homes, lest you get crushed by Solomon and his soldiers, without perceiving."

[27:19] He smiled and laughed at her statement, and said, "My Lord, direct me to be appreciative of the blessings You have bestowed upon me and my parents, and to do the righteous works that please You. Admit me by Your mercy into the company of Your righteous servants."

It might appear to you as a 'childish' dialogue with an ant, but can't you see that:

1- There is a miracle in which a man can understand the language of ants.
2-The situation prompted Soloman to realize God's grace upon him and eventually thank him for that grace.
3- It reaffirms the following verse
[6:38] All the creatures on earth, and all the birds that fly with wings, are communities like you. We did not leave anything out of this book. To their Lord, all these creatures will be summoned.

Again, every single story in the Quran holds a number of significant sermons behind it.

Power.

I guess Tasha mentioned a terrific example to reply against this.

 

[kai]

The notion of Mohamed's followers adding something to the Quran after his death is unreasonable.

Take this as an example of the extreme conservativeness of prophet Mohamed's followers:

During Mohamed's life, the Quran was never written collectively, it was memorized by the companions of the prophet PBUH.
However, after his death, Abu Bakr suggested that the Quran must be collected in a unified book.

Omar protested against this at the very beginning, why?

''Would you do something the prophet has not done," said Omar.

After staudying the matter carefully, the operation was completed at last because Abu Bakr and Omar feared that any of the Quran would be lost.

Conclusion: If they were that cautious just over collecting the Quran in one piece, do you think they had the guts to alter something in it after Mohamed's death?



Well this depends on how you perceive it, as long as you read the verse from that narrow viewpoint, you will observe it like a child observes a fairytale.

But, for example, when you honestly look into Solomon's story (as well as every single story in the Quran), you will find out that its much more than a fairytale.


[27:18] When they approached the valley of the ants, one ant said, "O you ants, go into your homes, lest you get crushed by Solomon and his soldiers, without perceiving."

[27:19] He smiled and laughed at her statement, and said, "My Lord, direct me to be appreciative of the blessings You have bestowed upon me and my parents, and to do the righteous works that please You. Admit me by Your mercy into the company of Your righteous servants."

It might appear to you as a 'childish' dialogue with an ant, but can't you see that:

1- There is a miracle in which a man can understand the language of ants.
2-The situation prompted Soloman to realize God's grace upon him and eventually thank him for that grace.
3- It reaffirms the following verse
[6:38] All the creatures on earth, and all the birds that fly with wings, are communities like you. We did not leave anything out of this book. To their Lord, all these creatures will be summoned.

Again, every single story in the Quran holds a number of significant sermons behind it.










I guess Tasha mentioned a terrific example to reply against this.

are you seriously asking me to beleive that Solomon could converse with Ants? arnt you going to say its an allagory or something? do ants have vocal chords? did they speak Hebrew?

 

[tariqkhwaja]

re you seriously asking me to beleive that Solomon could converse with Ants? arnt you going to say its an allagory or something? do ants have vocal chords? did they speak Hebrew?

Not really. I will open a new thread on this. But I don't believe Solomon conversed with animals. In brief, the armies he controlled were named after animals depending on their characteristics. Ants for spying I think. And I think history bears testament to this ... in a new thread. It is a very good lesson for kings and rulers.

 

[YmirGF]

Omar protested against this at the very beginning, why?

My guess is that Omar probably wasn't the sharpest tack in the box. In retrospect however it is a great pity that Omar wasn't able to dissuad Abu Bakr from compiling the Qur'an into book form.

After staudying the matter carefully,

LOL. It might be more accurate to say, "After doing a head count of those left who had committed the Qur'an to memory..."

the operation was completed at last because Abu Bakr and Omar feared that any of the Quran would be lost.

I agree with this part, at least, at the future of the Qur'an was beginning to be doubtful in it's (then) current form.

Conclusion: If they were that cautious just over collecting the Quran in one piece, do you think they had the guts to alter something in it after Mohamed's death? [/quote]Well it was rearranged from longest to shortest ayats, so there was some tinkering. What is it? Isn't the 92nd or 96th, the first actual verse "handed down"?

It might appear to you as a 'childish' dialogue with an ant, but can't you see that:

1- There is a miracle in which a man can understand the language of ants.
2-The situation prompted Soloman to realize God's grace upon him and eventually thank him for that grace.
3- It reaffirms the following verse
[6:38] All the creatures on earth, and all the birds that fly with wings, are communities like you. We did not leave anything out of this book. To their Lord, all these creatures will be summoned.

Again, every single story in the Quran holds a number of significant sermons behind it.

Given that no human has since been blessed with the ability to converse with ants, it does tend to put the verses in a suspicious, self-serving light. How remarkable is it that an army of soldiers is so righteous that stops to implore ants to get to safety lest they get stomped on? If only those who met this army, head on, had been so fortunate, eh.

I guess Tasha mentioned a terrific example to reply against this.

I honestly don't think that Muhammed started off drooling over absolute power, but after he noted that people were flocking to his message, then I would wager he was seduced by it -- absolutely.

 

[tariqkhwaja]

I honestly don't think that Muhammed started off drooling over absolute power, but after he noted that people were flocking to his message, then I would wager he was seduced by it -- absolutely.

Prove it. I disproved it by giving you an example of his level of humility at his deathbed. And I can present several more examples. Why don't you prove it with an example?

You make statements with the assumption that "he must have been like everyone else". Prove the assumption. Give me one example to show he was remotely selfish.

I will give you another example. Where was his thirst of power after the victory over Mekkah? Why did he forgive everyone for all they had done to him? Where was his thirst of power when he entered the city with the Hazrat Bilal (may Allah be pleased with him) (the first African Muslim) on one side. As he entered his head was bowed and he was reciting praises of Allah. Are these signs of a "corrupts absolutely by absolute power"?

 

[TashaN]

are you seriously asking me to beleive that Solomon could converse with Ants? arnt you going to say its an allagory or something? do ants have vocal chords? did they speak Hebrew?

He could understand what ants, birds, or any animal in general would say, not that these animals would speak like human beings do, but he can understand them.

Not really. I will open a new thread on this. But I don't believe Solomon conversed with animals. In brief, the armies he controlled were named after animals depending on their characteristics. Ants for spying I think. And I think history bears testament to this ... in a new thread. It is a very good lesson for kings and rulers.

False. That's your own fabrication. Do you have a proof for this? I'm sure you don't.

Here is my own proof from the Quran that they were REAL ants, and REAL birds.

[16] And Sulaiman was Dawud's heir. He said: "O ye people! we have been taught the speech of birds, and on us has been bestowed (a little) of all things: this is indeed Grace manifest (from Allah.)"

[17] And before Sulaiman were marshalled his hosts, of Jinns and men and birds, and they were all kept in order and ranks.


[18] At length, when they came to a (lowly) valley of ants, one of the ants said: "O ye ants, get into your habitations, lest Sulaiman and his hosts crush you (under foot) without knowing it."

[19] So he smiled, amused at its speech; and he said: "O my Lord! so order me that I may be grateful for Thy favours, which Thou hast bestowed on me and on my parents, and that I may work the righteousness that will please Thee: and admit me, by Thy Grace, to the ranks of Thy righteous Servants." (Quran 27:16-19)

 

[darkendless]

He could understand what ants, birds, or any animal in general would say, not that these animals would speak like human beings do, but he can understand them.

Traiq has a reasonable explination for this, i would actually believe his version. Conversing with animals is completely impossible (unless you're eddie murphy). Also, how do you know this, does the Quran specifically say it, not really, like most Quranic wuotes they could be taken in different ways.

 

[Right_Path]

Traiq has a reasonable explination for this, i would actually believe his version. Conversing with animals is completely impossible (unless you're eddie murphy). Also, how do you know this, does the Quran specifically say it, not really, like most Quranic wuotes they could be taken in different ways.

There is no 'versions' in this case, the only interpretation for the verse is that Solomon did have that gift of understanding animals.

Anyways we're off-topic, the original aim was to say that such stories are not 'fairytales for children'.

 

[tariqkhwaja]

Yes. Lets stay focused here. (Okay Tashan?).

 

[TashaN]

Yep, better to stay on topic.

 

[kai]

whats off topic? it all seem relevant to me?

 

[tariqkhwaja]

whats off topic? it all seem relevant to me?

Actually you are right. The topic asks why you think Islam is a false religion. Most allegations levelled at us are, in themselves, a new sub-topic so to speak but they are very relevant to the OP.

But we can't go into every aspect on this thread alone. It would be very ill-organized and someone new looking at the thread would just back-off by the sheer magnitude.

So maybe we should start stating/replying to allegations on seperate threads and post links here.