What makes you think Islam is a false religion?

[Right_Path]

Says who? Who makes that decision? Shi'a Muslims are by definition muslim. Right? :yes:

Nope...some call themselves Muslims, but certain acts can make them (Khareg al Milla) out of creed, according to Muslim scientists.

For example one who denies the prayers is considered an outcast, (not one who does not pray)

 

[Right_Path]

[2.6] As to those who reject Faith, it is the same to them whether thou warn them or do not warn them; they will not believe.
[2.7] God hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they (incur).


Sorry, but non-believers will always remain non-believers because God makes sure of it. We're all screwed.

Why did you ignore this 'As to those who reject faith'?

 

[Storm]

Why do you ignore this?
God hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they (incur).

Isn't it rather injust to punish someone for something you've done to them?

 

[Right_Path]

It would take me away from that religion more than it would draw me to it. I don't need a lifestyle that scares others. I also think I am not alone in that.

A religion must combine between fear and hope because God has power and mercy.

But note that fear here refers to fear out of respect, not being 'scared'.

are essential in the propaganda rather. this type of totalitarian propaganda might have worked on illiterate people centuries ago (or illiterate people in the 21 century), but it has no place among progressive people, it is insulting to direct it at modern human beings.

Whats 'insulting' in that?

If you work for a company, you are told that you will get rewarded for good work and face penalty for mistakes, does the latter sound insulting?

 

[Caladan]

Originally Posted by Caladan
It would take me away from that religion more than it would draw me to it. I don't need a lifestyle that scares others. I also think I am not alone in that.

That is not me you are quoting.

as for your allegory to a company. the company's board of directors doesnt condemn people who dont buy their products or work for competing companies to hell.

 

[Riverwolf]

Why did you ignore this 'As to those who reject faith'?

I don't. Aren't those who reject faith non-muslims? Such as myself? Therefore there is nothing you can do to save me from the fire, and God has veiled my eyes so that no matter what I hear, there is no hope for me. Because I am not muslim and do not worship anything.

Doesn't mean I don't read the Quran, understand. I do read and enjoy it. I certainly do not deny that it is a masterpiece in religious literature. And the translation I use is beautifully worded, though the translator's grammar is rather lacking...

 

[YmirGF]

Yes, it is not reasonable, but thats why I am telling a non-believer, know more so that you might become a believer.

From this answer I can only conclude that you are unable to appreciate the resolve in the mind of many unbelievers. By "unbelievers" here, I mean people like myself, who have taken the time to study Islam and know enough about its "Prophet" to choose to reject it all, as there is no half way in Islam. I will never reach a point where I will become a believer. Please, try to understand that, doubly so since I am quite aware of the fate that Islam claims awaits me, and people like me.

Again YmirGF, you give no answer, and yet open another argument to evade the question.

*sigh*

Why would someone seeking control, start his mission by going against the stalwarts of the village??

It would seem reasonable to me that he didn't want to join their system, but rather, he wanted to supplant their system and replace it with his own. Is this all that difficult to grasp?

Anyways, the Quran is what makes Muslims sure that they are not dealing with fabrications...the book has an answer to every question.

It is also the source of circular reasoning (also known as begging the question) that forms the basis of Islamic thought.

Why don't you call it strong faith, rather than 'bound in their dogma'.

This is amusing as your question verifies that the only difference is in perspective.

And I can only assume that have very little understanding to the nature of the people of the Arab Peninsula 1400 years ago...and very little knowledge about this particular phase regarding Arabs turining to Islam.

Granted I have only read about the subject for the last three years, so I am hardly an expert. However, I do know human nature and elementary psychology fairly well.

There is almost no incident where Mohamed persuaded someone to Islam using 'FEAR'.

Hmmm. You are sure about this? I understand that Muslim sources tend to gloss over this point, but simply put yourself in the shoes of those peasants. Abandon all 21st century thinking and consider that you are faced with this guy who is raving on and on about god, hellfire and how he is the messenger of this god. Methinks, many simply hedged their bets IN CASE what he was saying WAS true. Superstition, my friend... superstition.

I can tell you several stories of people who have turned to Islam...it was all about the Quran and its influence on people...they were convinced it was word of God without listening to verses of punishment.

Are you seriously expecting me to be moved by this kind of so-called evidence?

From the start....What would be much higher than being the King of Arabia?, and then it would be much easier for him to achieve his...'empire'.

Nope... he was much cleverer than the average Muslim appreciates, I suspect. My guess is that he didn't want a mere country, he wanted all of the known world. The "fact" that he was offered anything and everything to renounce Allah and Islam simply told Muhammed that they were terribly frightened by him and the potential he had. If someone approached me with this, I would turn them down too, as I would realize that half the battle was already over.

I understand...just give yourself a chance HONESTLY.

Honesty is the key here sir.

Actually, Right_Path, you do not understand otherwise you would not make such a ludicrous suggestion. So am I to think that anyone who disagrees with Muhammed and Islam is not being honest with themself?

Not 'sound' reasonable, but when you apply it on yourself, I mean if you followed Mohamed's teachings, you will be adamant you are going right...billions have done that...very few knew about him and then rejected him.

I guess I am one of those "few" then. Aside from this your advice is laughable. So you expect me to "try out" living the Islamic model and eventually I will see why it is all so reasonable... if I am honest. I will pass, thanks.

Your view suggests that the info about every historic personality is doubtful.

Not every historical figure, but we know very little about many people from the past. There is no way to get around this glaring reality. There is no hard evidence that Moses, Abraham or Jesus even existed, to name a few. There is also zero evidence that Adam, Eve or Noah existed either.

God is speaking against everyday everywhere via the QURAN...as I said, the Quran can answer every religion.

Have it your way. This kind of assertion doesn't warrant serious discussion.

 

[YmirGF]

it is a masterpiece in religious literature.

Oddly, I think it is very poorly written and would venture to say that if this is the pinnacle of Arabic literature then that does not bode well for Arabic literature in general.

 

[LuisDantas]

Nope...some call themselves Muslims, but certain acts can make them (Khareg al Milla) out of creed, according to Muslim scientists.

For example one who denies the prayers is considered an outcast, (not one who does not pray)

Would you agree with me that someone who considers himself (or herself) a Shia will most likely also be a Muslim (in his/her own opinion at least)?

Does it make sense to consider oneself a "non-Muslim" Shia?

 

[.lava]

Why do you ignore this?
God hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they (incur).

Isn't it rather injust to punish someone for something you've done to them?

good question. there are two kinds of veil but one post would not be enough to explain it all. but shortly; hearts are not sealed before one's rejection. there is a decision one makes with his free will. people do not reject because their hearts are sealed. that would be injustice, of course. besides those veils would be taken away if one wishes to reach God.


.

 

[.lava]

Doesn't mean I don't read the Quran, understand. I do read and enjoy it. I certainly do not deny that it is a masterpiece in religious literature. And the translation I use is beautifully worded, though the translator's grammar is rather lacking...

it is OK to read Qur'an. however there is one fact about verses of Qur'an that none could get over with on his own.

3 / AL- `IMRAN - 7: He (Allah) is the one Who has sent the Book down to you. In it are some basic or fundamental verses (of established meaning; closed to doubts or comments), which are (clear and meaningful enough) in UMMUL KITAB (Mother of the Book). Others are allegorical (need explanation for the real meaning; have hidden meaning) verses. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the allegorical part of the Book, wishing to do mischief and interpreting them as they want. However no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are RASIHUN (firmly grounded in knowledge; the owner of RUSUH) say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is sent down from our Lord." None will grasp the Message but ULUL ELBAB (men of understanding; men to whom the secrets of Allah are revealed)

you can not understand or you'd misunderstand some verses. those translations of Qur'an were not make by Ulul Elbab. this is very high level of Islam in Sufism/Tasavvuf. those words (Ulul Elbab) means the owners of the treasures of the Divine Secrets. one could only earn it.

5. Ûlu’l Elbâb (the owners of continuous zikir, consequently of the treasures of the divine secrets).

most of the corruption in Islam comes from those men who translate and explain verses that have hidden meanings, although they are not Ulul Elbab.


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[Tsarkoe Selo]

The whole killing of all the male jews of that one tribe gets to me tbh.

 

[Riverwolf]

it is OK to read Qur'an. however there is one fact about verses of Qur'an that none could get over with on his own.

3 / AL- `IMRAN - 7: He (Allah) is the one Who has sent the Book down to you. In it are some basic or fundamental verses (of established meaning; closed to doubts or comments), which are (clear and meaningful enough) in UMMUL KITAB (Mother of the Book). Others are allegorical (need explanation for the real meaning; have hidden meaning) verses. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the allegorical part of the Book, wishing to do mischief and interpreting them as they want. However no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are RASIHUN (firmly grounded in knowledge; the owner of RUSUH) say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is sent down from our Lord." None will grasp the Message but ULUL ELBAB (men of understanding; men to whom the secrets of Allah are revealed)

you can not understand or you'd misunderstand some verses. those translations of Qur'an were not make by Ulul Elbab. this is very high level of Islam in Sufism/Tasavvuf. those words (Ulul Elbab) means the owners of the treasures of the Divine Secrets. one could only earn it.

5. Ûlu’l Elbâb (the owners of continuous zikir, consequently of the treasures of the divine secrets).

most of the corruption in Islam comes from those men who translate and explain verses that have hidden meanings, although they are not Ulul Elbab.


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I read it because I enjoy it and want to understand more about Islam. I can't read or speak Arabic at the moment, so I'm stuck with English translations; someday I intend to learn Arabic so I can read it in its original form.

Understanding God is not on my agenda; attaining the Mystery doesn't interest me at all. (the Mystery being things that we simple-minded mortals cannot even come within a universe's span to any shred of the slightest fathoming... things we can't perceive even with the most powerful computers a century from now)

 

[.lava]

I can't read or speak Arabic at the moment

even if you knew original language, you could not still understand some. that was my point.


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[Darkness]

We are talking about religion here sir...Good news for believers and a warning for non-believers are essential for the message.

It is for this reason that I am a Disciple of Lucifer. "Do what I say or die in endless horror" is the ravings of a psychopathic dictator, not a loving Father. What does Lucifer say? "Pay for your sins by suffering as you have made others suffer." His is the true path of righteousness, not some warped and demented God who takes lessons from Hellraiser and Event Horizon.

Inter-faith marriage is only prohibited if one of the spouses is a pagan...I don't see much of a problem in that...because a believer in God cannot marry a non-believer...a conflict would occur when a child is born.

Only if you are intent on brainwashing your child into believing the same Theology that you do. It is much better to give information from all sides of the issues and let him or her decide what to believe. This is the way of the Lightbearer.

 

[Riverwolf]

even if you knew original language, you could not still understand some. that was my point.


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That's okay.

I barely understand some things that were written in English, anyway. I don't mind if some or even most verses of the Qur'an have meanings which escape me.

 

[darkendless]

It is for this reason that I am a Disciple of Lucifer. "Do what I say or die in endless horror" is the ravings of a psychopathic dictator, not a loving Father. What does Lucifer say? "Pay for your sins by suffering as you have made others suffer." His is the true path of righteousness, not some warped and demented God who takes lessons from Hellraiser and Event Horizon.

Only if you are intent on brainwashing your child into believing the same Theology that you do. It is much better to give information from all sides of the issues and let him or her decide what to believe. This is the way of the Lightbearer.

If i could frubal this post about 5 times i would.

There is nothing wrong with inter-marriage, people just have a mental block about it because of pointless traditions which do not serve a purpose in the child's life. Also, these traditions remove the childs right to choose their own path, and well.... thats just wrong.

A God that preaches death to those who do not submit is a tyrant. Submission is selling your soul. I plan to live the life i want to live on earth, the satanic bible teaches to worship ones self, to have respect, and not to be caught up in silly little arguements concerning meaningless words.

 

[LuisDantas]

Y'know, this is in fact the first time ever that I happen to agree so completely with a Luciferianist (or two, whatever the case). To the point that I feel duty-bound to frubal both.

Interfaith marriages are not only ok, they're a great early opportunity to learn about respecting others' beliefs.

 

[Darkness]

I always get good support when I espouse Luciferian Philosophy.

 

[UnityNow101]

It is for this reason that I am a Disciple of Lucifer. "Do what I say or die in endless horror" is the ravings of a psychopathic dictator, not a loving Father. What does Lucifer say? "Pay for your sins by suffering as you have made others suffer." His is the true path of righteousness, not some warped and demented God who takes lessons from Hellraiser and Event Horizon.

. You have just made a very convincing argument for why religions who use blind faith and worship as a necessity are not to be taken seriously. Luciferian Philosophy seems to make sense to me, especially in this respect. I have always felt that Lucifer receives a bad rap in all of the religions that espouse the existence of him. Not that I believe in any of it. Just that if I were to believe, I would question the whole Lucifer/God relationship a bit more than the God-fearing religious types do.