What proof do you have of God?

[FearGod]

Please, if you know you can't debate well or have not looked into philosophy much, I ask that you do not post, no offense.

Can we make the question Conversely ?
what proof do you have that god doesn't exist ?

 

[Astravalon]

What proof do you have of God?

All the proof I need, though I’m not sure it’s the proof others might need, since different people seem to have different ideas of what constitutes ‘proof’ (usually depending on what they’re ready to accept at the moment).

So, it's delusional to have faith that you won't die tomorrow?

Or how about faith that there even is a tomorrow?
I can't prove that there's a tomorrow, but that doesn't seem to stop me or anyone else from making plans for its arrival.

 

[Thief]

apparently the "holier than thous" have the proper attitude

Wrong label....open minded as compared to close minded.
True seekers...as compared to nay sayers.

 

[otokage007]

No you didn't there is a very big difference between a fictional claim and a non fictional claim. Trying to compare the two is an obsurd and an intellectually dishonest tactic. A fictional claim does not require, does not provide, nor has any need of justification. A lie requires no evidence. A non-fictional claim must have evidence. Faith must be founded on evidence. I will help you out a little. There is more evidence for the person of Christ than there is for any non-fictional character in ancient history. There is more textual evidence for the bible by far than for any other work of ancient history. It is a little more meaningfull to compare equal things.

Wrong. There's more evidence bout many other ancient character than jesus christ. For example, we have more information about the pharaohs than about jesus. In fact, we have some pharaohs bodies, and we have nothing from Jesus. So for now, i will say God and Harry Potter are still in the same dimension of credibility. Putting God at the same level of, for example, Ramses, would be stupid and childish.

As far as 191 million (anything but small numbers for one man who worked for three years, who has the highest burden of proof in history, and was killed by a small middle eastern mostly illiterate tribe 2000 years ago and when information spread very slowly and even books were rare.)

He claims to have a burden. Let "claims" be claims, and facts be facts. Please.

verses 500 million for a pop culture character that hundreds of millions was spent on to inform the masses about,

Much more money was spent to build the church institution. MUCH MUCH more.

In the information age, and was displayed over the whole civilised world and had no burden of proof. Even your rediculous comparison backfires on you. Mark Twain, A lie can get half way around the world before the truth can get it's pants on. Is there anything so rediculous that it will not be appealed to in order to maintain your comfort zone?

Sure, the lie of God's existence has clearly spread all over the world too fast.

 

[waitasec]

Wrong label....open minded as compared to close minded.
True seekers...as compared to nay sayers.

would you be my nay sayer?
:yes:

so really your position is that you are correct and everyone else is not
and my position is that perhaps every truth seeker is correct...
why would you have a problem with that?

 

[Thief]

would you be my nay sayer?
:yes:

so really your position is that you are correct and everyone else is not
and my position is that perhaps every truth seeker is correct...
why would you have a problem with that?

I don't.
You do.

On many occasion I have been correct, while the supposed expert in the situation failed to make it work.
I am that smart guy in the background that knows better.

Got a problem with that?
I don't.

I know how the Carpenter felt, as He taught the pharisees.
I know His disappointment in His own disciples.
I see such things in your postings.

 

[jasonwill2]

How is this topic still alive?

When u type Jesus Christ on google, u can see only 191 million webpages are mentioning him.

When u type Harry Potter, u can see 439 million mention him.

So I think I won anyway.

Darn, Satan only has 106 million...

...But evil has 783 million lol.

 

[waitasec]

I don't.
You do.

On many occasion I have been correct, while the supposed expert in the situation failed to make it work.
I am that smart guy in the background that knows better.

Got a problem with that?
I don't.

I know how the Carpenter felt, as He taught the pharisees.
I know His disappointment in His own disciples.
I see such things in your postings.

correct for whom?
everyone or just you?


wow...just wow.


and you expect anyone to take this seriously?
really?

your arguments prove :foot:
you fail to persuade as you put your self in someone else's drivers seat

 

[1robin]

Wrong. There's more evidence bout many other ancient character than jesus christ For example, we have more information about the pharaohs than about jesus. In fact, we have some pharaohs bodies, and we have nothing from Jesus. .

No there is not. How many lines of text concerning specific Pharaohs do you think they carved into stone. Jesus has more than 100,000 words that attest to his existance in the bible alone. He is also mentioned in about 20 extra biblical texts or his existance is easily implicated by the texts. In Egypt many Pharaohs tried very hard to eradicate the record of previous ones. They carved many events and claims in stone that never happened. If you boil it down to what is actualy reliable there is not as much as you think. The mummies are an interesting claim and I will have to think on it. However most mummies have been destroyed and their identity is guessed at. At one time there were so many mummies floating around a traveler to Egypt said he saw them used as fuel in a train. I do not know if that is true, but mummies have had a very uncertain past. As you know there is a very good reason we do not have Christs body because unlike mumies he didn't stay dead. There have been many discoveries one of which was a bone box that was inscribed with James brother of Jesus and son of Joseph on it etc.....

doSo for now, i will say God and Harry Potter are still in the same dimension of credibility. Putting God at the same level of, for example, Ramses, would be stupid and childish.

Ramses did not make thousands of prohesies that came true which can only be explained by a supernaturaland personal mind. There is not a single meaningful equality between Harry Potter and the bible and the fact you think so is disturbing.

He claims to have a burden. Let "claims" be claims, and facts be facts. Please.

No, his claims make the burden inexorably a fact. As critics love to claim extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence which the bible has in spades. 25,000 historical corroberations, an textual tradition that no other work in ancient history can even come close to, scientific claims unknown at the time, etc.... If you are not demanding this burden then you are violateing what critics always appeal to.

Much more money was spent to build the church institution. MUCH MUCH more.

Not a bad counter point. I thought you were not even going to put up a scrap but you are more intellegint than your Harry Potter comparison would suggest.

Sure, the lie of God's existence has clearly spread all over the world too fast.

Not hardly:

The noted scholar, Professor Edwin Gordon Selwyn, says: "The fact that Christ rose from the dead on the third day in full continuity of body and soul - that fact seems as secure as historical evidence can make it."


"Professor Ambrose Fleming, emeritus professor of Electrical Engineering in the University of London, honorary fellow of St. John's College, Cambridge, receiver of the Faraday medal in 1928...one of England's outstanding scientists..." says of the New Testament documents: "We must take this evidence of experts as to the age and authenticity of this writing, just as we take the facts of astronomy on the evidence of astronomers who do not contradict each other. This being so, we can ask ourselves whether it is probably that such book, describing events that occurred about thirty or forty years previously, could have been accepted and cherished if the stories of abnormal events in it were false or mythical. It is impossible, because the memory of all elderly persons regarding events of thirty or forty years before is perfectly clear.

Professor Thomas Arnold, cited by Wilbur Smith, was for 14 years the famous headmaster of Rugby, author of a famous three-volume History of Rome, appointed to the char of Modern History at Oxford, and certainly a man well acquainted with the value of evidence in determining historical facts. This great scholar said: "The evidence for our LORD's life and death and resurrection may be, and often has been, shown to be satisfactory; it is good according to the common rules for distinguishing good evidence from bad. Thousands and tens of thousands of persons have gone through it piece by piece, as carefully as every judge summing up on a most important cause. I have myself done it many times over, not to persuade others but to satisfy myself. I have been used for many years to study the histories of other times, and to examine and weigh the evidence of those who have written about them, and I know of no one fact in the history of mankind which is proved by better and fuller evidence of every sort, to the understanding of a fair inquirer, than the great sign which GOD hath given us that Christ died and rose again from the dead."
Evidence That Demands a Verdict - Ch. 10 p. 2
Can you supply anything like this for your Harry Potter contention?

 

[otokage007]

No there is not. How many lines of text concerning specific Pharaohs do you think they carved into stone. Jesus has more than 100,000 words that attest to his existance in the bible alone. He is also mentioned in about 20 extra biblical texts or his existance is easily implicated by the texts.

Actually if you sum the pharaohs webpages they still outmatch Jesus. Cleopatra alone has 60 million. So as long as u rely on "words that mention him" to prove something, I will still be winning...

Ramses did not make thousands of prohesies that came true.

Nor did Jesus.

There is not a single meaningful equality between Harry Potter and the bible and the fact you think so is disturbing.

How about this: both are fiction works? And very good ones, in fact, both have almost similar sales!

No, his claims make the burden inexorably a fact.

There u go:

Not a bad counter point. I thought you were not even going to put up a scrap but you are more intellegint than your Harry Potter comparison would suggest.

Thanks, I still can't see your intelligence, but I hope I will.

Not hardly:

The noted scholar, Professor Edwin Gordon Selwyn, says: "The fact that Christ rose from the dead on the third day in full continuity of body and soul - that fact seems as secure as historical evidence can make it."


"Professor Ambrose Fleming, emeritus professor of Electrical Engineering in the University of London, honorary fellow of St. John's College, Cambridge, receiver of the Faraday medal in 1928...one of England's outstanding scientists..." says of the New Testament documents: "We must take this evidence of experts as to the age and authenticity of this writing, just as we take the facts of astronomy on the evidence of astronomers who do not contradict each other. This being so, we can ask ourselves whether it is probably that such book, describing events that occurred about thirty or forty years previously, could have been accepted and cherished if the stories of abnormal events in it were false or mythical. It is impossible, because the memory of all elderly persons regarding events of thirty or forty years before is perfectly clear.

Professor Thomas Arnold, cited by Wilbur Smith, was for 14 years the famous headmaster of Rugby, author of a famous three-volume History of Rome, appointed to the char of Modern History at Oxford, and certainly a man well acquainted with the value of evidence in determining historical facts. This great scholar said: "The evidence for our LORD's life and death and resurrection may be, and often has been, shown to be satisfactory; it is good according to the common rules for distinguishing good evidence from bad. Thousands and tens of thousands of persons have gone through it piece by piece, as carefully as every judge summing up on a most important cause. I have myself done it many times over, not to persuade others but to satisfy myself. I have been used for many years to study the histories of other times, and to examine and weigh the evidence of those who have written about them, and I know of no one fact in the history of mankind which is proved by better and fuller evidence of every sort, to the understanding of a fair inquirer, than the great sign which GOD hath given us that Christ died and rose again from the dead."
Evidence That Demands a Verdict - Ch. 10 p. 2
Can you supply anything like this for your Harry Potter contention?

It's good that u mention some famous people I don't know to strengthen your arguments. What do u have to say about Stephen Hawking, Albert Einstein, Charles Darwin, Arrhenius, Bennet, Chadwik, Watson and Crick, Marie Curie, Dawkins, Edison, Freud, Hamilton, Higgs, Laplace, John McCarthy, Alfred Nobel, Oparin, Oppenheimer, Roger Penrose and Carl Sagan, not being christians? They are among the greatest minds of history so...

 

[1robin]

How is this topic still alive?



Darn, Satan only has 106 million...

...But evil has 783 million lol.

Actually Jesus has 836,000,000 hits, I do not know where that guy got his numbers. Good has over 8 billion. So by these meaningless standards you both lose. Your signature is paradoxicle. You say Satan is the only truth and the bible says that Satan is the father of all lies. I know who I am going with on the issue.

 

[1robin]

Actually if you sum the pharaohs webpages they still outmatch Jesus. Cleopatra alone has 60 million. So as long as u rely on "words that mention him" to prove something, I will still be winning...

Since you value webpages for some unknown reason Jesus has 836 million and that is more than all the pharoah's paltry 26 million combined. I win the meaningless contest you created.

Nor did Jesus.

You didn't say Jesus you said God. At least keep your own claims straight.

How about this: both are fiction works? And very good ones, in fact, both have almost similar sales!

No they are not and no they don't.

There u go:

There is no more simple and uncontroversial point as this one I made. Your appeal to emoticons instead of counterclaims is typical of the loosing side.

Thanks, I still can't see your intelligence, but I hope I will.

Getting a claim from a critic that is not 100% bogus or can't be completely countered off the top of the head in under 30 seconds is no claim to fame.

It's good that u mention some famous people I don't know to strengthen your arguments.

A. The fact you don't know them says more about you than them or me. B. Does whether you know them or not have anything to do with whether they are not the top scholars in the field of evidence presentation which is the actual issue?


[/quote]What do u have to say about Stephen Hawking, Albert Einstein, Charles Darwin, Arrhenius, Bennet, Chadwik, Watson and Crick, Marie Curie, Dawkins, Edison, Freud, Hamilton, Higgs, Laplace, John McCarthy, Alfred Nobel, Oparin, Oppenheimer, Roger Penrose and Carl Sagan, not being christians? They are among the greatest minds of history so...[/quote] Not much when Newton, Pascal, pastur, Bacon, Kepler, Boyle, Faraday, Boole, Mendel, Collins, Kelvin, Reiman, Maxwell, and Eddington etc....were. In fact some of yours were at least deists and some could be called theists. However a scholar war means nothing. I presented the claims of the absolute top minds in the subject that most concerns the issue. Evidence and testimony. What people like Hawkins say outside his lab is meaningless.

 

[jasonwill2]

Actually Jesus has 836,000,000 hits, I do not know where that guy got his numbers. Good has over 8 billion. So by these meaningless standards you both lose. Your signature is paradoxicle. You say Satan is the only truth and the bible says that Satan is the father of all lies. I know who I am going with on the issue.

You know what, I keep thinking about it, and your right. Satan can't be the only truth because the Bible says hes the father of lies and a murderer from the beginning.

I was once a Christian, but I think I lost my way. How do I find my way back to Christ?

Spoiler: are you serious?

not serious just want to make a point that just because some book says it doesnt mean its true. I don't want to go to Christ becuase it has never worked for me and I could only conclude that if Jesus lied about everything else he probably lied about Satan too =D

 

[otokage007]

Since you value webpages for some unknown reason Jesus has 836 million and that is more than all the pharoah's paltry 26 million combined. I win the meaningless contest you created.

Truth is you are still losing, because if u use "Jesus", you are not getting only the Jesus Christ webpages. And yes, there's much more people called Jesus, not only your saviour! And u can't use God neither, because there's more than one God.

You didn't say Jesus you said God. At least keep your own claims straight

Sure, whatever Jesus, God, or the Virgin, they did not such prophecies. Do u know a prophecy must become reality to be called that way?

No they are not and no they don't.

Grrr... Yes! Yes! and a thousand times yes!

There is no more simple and uncontroversial point as this one I made. Your appeal to emoticons instead of counterclaims is typical of the loosing side.

Getting a claim from a critic that is not 100% bogus or can't be completely countered off the top of the head in under 30 seconds is no claim to fame.

:thud:

 

[1robin]

You know what, I keep thinking about it, and your right. Satan can't be the only truth because the Bible says hes the father of lies and a murderer from the beginning.

I was once a Christian, but I think I lost my way. How do I find my way back to Christ?

Spoiler: are you serious?

not serious just want to make a point that just because some book says it doesnt mean its true. I don't want to go to Christ becuase it has never worked for me and I could only conclude that if Jesus lied about everything else he probably lied about Satan too =D

That was a lot of work you went through. I don't have time to go through all the lines of evidence and philosophy to establish what is right and I do not think that it would matter anyway. I find most people reject God on preference and evidence is just an inconvenient hurdle that must be removed by any method available right or wrong. Where is it you gather what you think you know about Satan if you reject the most accepted book on the subject? Since the bible is known as the religous text that has the greatest likely hood of being true if any are, and in that text Satan gets his tail kicked why would you gamble on the loser? I am not being sarcastic I actually wanted an answer as your the reason for your faith is very confusing.

 

[1robin]

Truth is you are still losing, because if u use "Jesus", you are not getting only the Jesus Christ webpages. And yes, there's much more people called Jesus, not only your saviour! And u can't use God neither, because there's more than one God.

Well what percentage of the web is devoted to non Christ, Jesus'. Even at 40% which is an obsurd figure he still has more hits. Christ alone has more than 400 million. This issue doesn't matter anyway. I was just just playing along.

Sure, whatever Jesus, God, or the Virgin, they did not such prophecies. Do u know a prophecy must become reality to be called that way?

Yes since they did come true, that is why I called them prophecies. Since it is claimed by competant people that every one that was supposed to, has come true and the bible even makes that standard 100% correct fulfillment, is the claim that none are true a meaningfull statement and even worth the effort? I have never even heard a scholar critic claim that, even though there are I am sure a few that do. That is simply an obsurd claim and does no benifit to your credability.

Grrr... Yes! Yes! and a thousand times yes!

I have forgotten what this is about thank goodness.

:thud:

In my experience the quality of the argument is inversely puportional to the use of emoticons. They are meaningless pictorial substitutes for claims that could not be made.

 

[1robin]

Oh, poor bigot, I wish I could indulge you, but alas all I have ever gotten from you is your ignorant mocking.

A strange post in response to one in which I said I was serious and wanted an actual answer. It is very hard to discuss the father of evil without sounding sarcastic. I would not have attemted an explenation to what can't be explained either.

 

[jasonwill2]

A strange post in response to one in which I said I was serious and wanted an actual answer. It is very hard to discuss the father of evil without sounding sarcastic. I would not have attemted an explenation to what can't be explained either.

No, I won't give you ammunition to mock, for every time I have tried to show you my beliefs in the past or where they rest you tell me I am "confused", "lied" to, "illogical", "irrational", or ignoring the 'obvious' truth.

 

[otokage007]

Your theology is the most historically and theologically incorrect piece of religion I have ever seen (Baptist) to claim to be based on the Christian Bible, considering how it is at odds with the original texts. All you do is say words that are hallow, shallow, bigoted, ignorant, and meaningless.

Fruballs, fruballs and more fruballs!

 

[jasonwill2]

Fruballs, fruballs and more fruballs!

Well I'm glad that at least someone is a fan.