• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

What"s with all the secrecy???

if the supernatural does exist. what's with all the secrecy? out of all of the gods "known" to man throughout history, not a single one has made his actual existence known. never did a sky daddy come down to show himself to everyone... why?? why does god not make his existence known, and then let everyone decide whether or not they would like to worship him for eternity??? why turn it into a silly game of hide and seek, where only some humans claim that the gods have revealed themselves to them, while others are left in the dark....... why not just make his existence known and let us make the decision whether or not to follow him.... we will still have free will of course....
 

Flat Earth Kyle

Well-Known Member
Well in the Old Testament, if many people saw God face to face they would shrivel up and die. You should study up on conditions in seeing God on The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, or go to Mormon.org and chat with a missionary.

I think you will find some answers as to why God is so mysterious by studying up on the importance of faith on the same websites.

A recommendation is to pray and ask God to help you, then go searching and see if the Lord guides you to the answers you are looking for.
 
Hello,

I don't think there is any secrecy at in God. I think the existence of God is clear enough for someone who sincerely seeks him. Only if your standard of what is clear enough is unrealisticly high then it appears as a bunch of secrecy to you.
 

Quagmire

Imaginary talking monkey
Staff member
Premium Member
if the supernatural does exist. what's with all the secrecy? out of all of the gods "known" to man throughout history, not a single one has made his actual existence known.

And you know this how exactly?
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
if the supernatural does exist. what's with all the secrecy? out of all of the gods "known" to man throughout history, not a single one has made his actual existence known. never did a sky daddy come down to show himself to everyone... why?? why does god not make his existence known, and then let everyone decide whether or not they would like to worship him for eternity??? why turn it into a silly game of hide and seek, where only some humans claim that the gods have revealed themselves to them, while others are left in the dark....... why not just make his existence known and let us make the decision whether or not to follow him.... we will still have free will of course....

God likes hide-and-seek. ^_^ My God is a playful God.

Still, I do believe that God incarnates as various people all the time; there are such avatars even now. I've met one of them.
 

Matthew78

aspiring biblical scholar
if the supernatural does exist. what's with all the secrecy? out of all of the gods "known" to man throughout history, not a single one has made his actual existence known. never did a sky daddy come down to show himself to everyone... why?? why does god not make his existence known, and then let everyone decide whether or not they would like to worship him for eternity??? why turn it into a silly game of hide and seek, where only some humans claim that the gods have revealed themselves to them, while others are left in the dark....... why not just make his existence known and let us make the decision whether or not to follow him.... we will still have free will of course....

I don't know if you're aware of this but you have summarized a serious philosophical argument known as the argument from divine hiddenness or the argument from nonbelief. Simply put, a divine creator would make every reasonably honest person believe the creator is real if the creator was really serious about convincing people that s/he/it was real. I find it a very impressive and persuasive argument when applied to revealed religions. Some skeptics will even put the burden on theists to prove their beliefs by stating extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence to validate them.

What I have noticed is that many believers in revealed religion will expect skeptics to be impressed with arguments that employ very weak standards of evidence. For example, some Christians will cite the appearance of the risen Jesus to over 500 people in 1st Corinthians 15 in a creed that was supposedly given to St. Paul by other apostles. What I notice is that believers never provide the names of any of these 500+ people, never describe exactly what each of them saw, never provide any independent verifiable documentation from these 500+ people, explaining who they are, what their background and level of education was, what they saw, how they knew it was Jesus, whether they were Jewish, Greek, Roman, or any other cultural background. We don't know how other alternatives were ruled out or how we know the 500+ people were being honest.

I was reading a book written by a Mormon on Tuesday afternoon at a local library. I recall thinking that if Joseph Smith Jr was right and he did translate the Book of Mormon from plates that were compiled by Mormon and hidden in a hill by Moroni, then why aren't these plates in an archeological museum? If the risen Jesus really did appear to Native Americans, why didn't Jesus write down on golden plates the gospel in it's "fullness"? Why didn't Jesus write a statement for all the world to read, signing it with his very own finger, to be a testimony to all the nations that, yes, he really was alive after his resurrection and really was on the North American continent?

What I find instead are pathetic excuses for why we don't have powerful, overwhelming evidence demonstrating these claims. Did Jesus rise from the dead? Well, in the 40 days between his resurrection and his ascension, why didn't he write his own gospel on papyrus scrolls and sign his name for all the world to see along with the signature of his disciples who were with him as witnesses? Why not give irrefutable proof that he is indeed alive and risen by writing on papyrus scrolls or thin golden plates about his life, about God's plan, giving humanity all the proofs it could ever need or want that Jesus is risen and alive?
 

idea

Question Everything
if the supernatural does exist. what's with all the secrecy? out of all of the gods "known" to man throughout history, not a single one has made his actual existence known. never did a sky daddy come down to show himself to everyone... why?? ....

Jesus came down ... I wouldn't say it's hidden - most people in the world know about God.

The Bilderbergs, trilateral commission,Illuminati - those try to be secret... religion is the opposite - missionaries everywhere! everyone welcome to come participate!
 

839311

Well-Known Member
Well, in the 40 days between his resurrection and his ascension, why didn't he write his own gospel on papyrus scrolls and sign his name for all the world to see along with the signature of his disciples who were with him as witnesses? Why not give irrefutable proof that he is indeed alive and risen by writing on papyrus scrolls or thin golden plates about his life, about God's plan, giving humanity all the proofs it could ever need or want that Jesus is risen and alive?

I wouldn't be convinced anyway. A written scroll is unimpressive. There are lots of extraordinary writings, and I have no reason to think that any of them are of divine origin. I would need a lot more than this. I would need to see Jesus, hopefully speak to him, see miracles, take a trip to heaven to verify that it is a real place. This is the kind of evidence which would convince me that Jesus is real. Faith that develops from seeing a piece of writing is unjustified. How about curing the world of all forms of disease? Or preventing all natural disasters? But even then, how would we know God did it? Maybe aliens did it. Maybe we are in a simulation. There are plenty of other possible explanations that come to mind.
 

Yanni

Active Member
if the supernatural does exist. what's with all the secrecy? out of all of the gods "known" to man throughout history, not a single one has made his actual existence known. never did a sky daddy come down to show himself to everyone... why?? why does god not make his existence known, and then let everyone decide whether or not they would like to worship him for eternity??? why turn it into a silly game of hide and seek, where only some humans claim that the gods have revealed themselves to them, while others are left in the dark....... why not just make his existence known and let us make the decision whether or not to follow him.... we will still have free will of course....
One of the reasons God doesn't make His existence clearly known to mankind is because He wants us to believe in His existence, rather than have clear cut knowledge that He exist. Many things can happen throughout a person's life that can point to the Divine. However, God gave us free will, and if we were so sure that God was watching our every move, we wouldn't be able to act upon our free will, because it would virtually disappear. God wants to give us eternal reward for fighting our evil inclinations and living a fulfilling life of family, good deeds, and obedience to His Will. With perfect knowledge of God's existence, the purpose of life wouldn't be served.
 

Matthew78

aspiring biblical scholar
I wouldn't be convinced anyway. A written scroll is unimpressive. There are lots of extraordinary writings, and I have no reason to think that any of them are of divine origin. I would need a lot more than this. I would need to see Jesus, hopefully speak to him, see miracles, take a trip to heaven to verify that it is a real place. This is the kind of evidence which would convince me that Jesus is real. Faith that develops from seeing a piece of writing is unjustified. How about curing the world of all forms of disease? Or preventing all natural disasters? But even then, how would we know God did it? Maybe aliens did it. Maybe we are in a simulation. There are plenty of other possible explanations that come to mind.

I totally agree with you! When I thought of a written scroll or golden plates, I was trying to argue the point that we have no actual evidence by the supposedly risen Jesus himself. I, too, would need much more than this! I would have to have Jesus appear face-to-face with me, and not only witness miracles but shown proof that the miracles are actual miracles and not the sort that can be faked by clever technology that human beings don't have or haven't currently thought of but an alien civilization would've invented already.

I find the statement extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence to be actually problematic. The problem is the demarcation line between "ordinary" and "extraordinary". What does it mean to say that some event or claim is "extraordinary"? Instead, I operate on a different principle: miraculous claims require miraculous forms of evidence to verify them. The only thing in my judgment that can possibly verify a miracle story or claim that Jesus rose from the dead would be an actual miracle performed by the risen Jesus himself to me personally. A collection of writings from 1st century Palestine is not miraculous evidence.
 

Matthew78

aspiring biblical scholar
One of the reasons God doesn't make His existence clearly known to mankind is because He wants us to believe in His existence, rather than have clear cut knowledge that He exist. Many things can happen throughout a person's life that can point to the Divine. However, God gave us free will, and if we were so sure that God was watching our every move, we wouldn't be able to act upon our free will, because it would virtually disappear. God wants to give us eternal reward for fighting our evil inclinations and living a fulfilling life of family, good deeds, and obedience to His Will. With perfect knowledge of God's existence, the purpose of life wouldn't be served.

I think it's appropriate to make a distinction between knowing and trusting. Having irrefutable proof that a divine being exists wouldn't negate free will. If this divine being wanted us to live for a certain purpose and wanted us to trust in him as a guide to discovering what this purpose is, we could still use our free will not to trust him, not to follow his plan, and not to fulfill the purpose for our lives even if we had absolutely certain knowledge that he was, indeed, real. Accepting his existence as a fact is no more a negation of free will than accepting that there's an external world outside our heads is a negation of free will.

I personally don't see why a creator wouldn't prove his existence beyond a shadow of any possible doubt and still leave free will intact for us by allowing us to choose his plan or our own. Only if a creator proved his existence beyond a shadow of a doubt and forced our worship, our allegiance, and forced us to do his bidding on a daily basis would I agree that free will had been taken away. Otherwise, I don't see the conflict between absolute certainty as far as divine existence goes and free will.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
Works in what way?

Charity, humanitarian efforts, free schools and healthcare, that sort of thing.

I'm talking about Amma, BTW. No magic trick miracles as far as I'm aware; just total karma yoga.
 

839311

Well-Known Member
Charity, humanitarian efforts, free schools and healthcare, that sort of thing.

I'm talking about Amma, BTW. No magic trick miracles as far as I'm aware; just total karma yoga.

Ahh, thank you.

Your right to think this isn't enough for me, ofcourse. My previous message in this thread made that clear. What Id like to know is why is this enough for you? I hope you will give me a detailed reply. More or less everything that justifies your 'faith', as well as your faith in Amma.
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
if the supernatural does exist. what's with all the secrecy? out of all of the gods "known" to man throughout history, not a single one has made his actual existence known. never did a sky daddy come down to show himself to everyone... why?? why does god not make his existence known, and then let everyone decide whether or not they would like to worship him for eternity??? why turn it into a silly game of hide and seek, where only some humans claim that the gods have revealed themselves to them, while others are left in the dark....... why not just make his existence known and let us make the decision whether or not to follow him.... we will still have free will of course....

My primary response is that God is within, in literally the most obvious place to look. If God were to incarnate (in way I hear you asking), it would, I argue, leave a lot to be desired. Such an understanding would leave far more confusion than lead to clarity, a la Jesus.

But a key is to pretend God is within, and so that would mean a) with physical eyes, God cannot be 'seen' and b) with non-physical eyes (aka Vision), and sense of discernment (at least) and Grace (at best) God could be seen in everyone. I have seen in this way where experience was crystal clear that everyone is God manifested. The 'game of hide and seek' that you speak of was completely unraveled. But I gather that if I go and tell anyone / everyone about this, it will come off as subjective, possibly delusional, and arguably able to be relegated to another 'plausible' explanation. Therefore, even if God was seen in everyone, but say not by everyone, and instead seen by "you" it would not be enough (for all).

But there are two things that the experience clearly taught me. One I already was aware of and that is that the mind is split, and it is something within us, perceived as us, that is convinced separation from God is reality. It is epitome of existence in physical world, and not only does it manifest the physical, it is that which believes survival is in doubt and self is constantly (or very often) being threatened. Let's call this ego. The other thing, which the experience taught me, and that I didn't realize until then, is the other way of seeing (where you truly receive all as brethren, with no exceptions), is always occurring, and is 'real world.'

Now that I feel a sense of distance (not forgotten, but not quite elevated) to Grace experience, I relate to idea of 'separation' and that it just doesn't feel totally okay to see everyone, without exception, as divine brothers / sisters. Yet, because of shift in perception that comes with Grace, I also just can't buy into separation anymore. I relate to it in intellectual way, but it feels very deceptive, and like being asleep.

The key I'm (trying) getting across is that divine experience is both natural and what is going on all around us, all the time, even while we may pretend (with unbelievable conviction) that it is otherwise.

As I understand things, until we collectively put away the belief in the physical, the split will occur. This makes it seem like lots of work, could take an eternity. But it isn't really that way. It takes but one to make the shift to realize it is 'already happening' and that one can have profound influence on many, arguably all, since space / time are understood as in the Hands of One who Knows.

In summary:
- God is within each and everyone - 'hidden' in most obvious place to look
- Hide and seek is game we are playing. We hide self/mind from Knowledge and seek as if looking outside / around us will get us closer
- Grace teaches that divine realization is natural and always occurring. You / we need not worry, for it is inevitable that God will be found, when we are no longer willing to see illusion and instead allow for truth. Here is where shift in perception occurs. Knowledge is (once again) known.
 

pwfaith

Active Member
This reminds me of the sermon series our pastor did a few weeks ago titled "God - Hidden In Plain Sight". I thought it was an interesting title. I looked up "what does hidden in plain sight mean", I knew what it mean I was just curious as to if there was anything "deeper" in it, and I found this:

It means that something is visible to a person but because it blends in with other items or its environment, or because it is not where the person looking for it expects it to be, it is hard to locate.

For example, I was looking in my bookshelves for a book by a particular author. I thought the book had a red cover, so I was looking for a red cover. I was wrong; it had a white cover. I probably glanced at the book 3 or 4 times without recognizing it. It was hidden (meaning I didn't recognize it) in plain sight (it was perfectly visible).

I wonder how often God has been right before us, perfectly visible, yet we weren't looking for Him or we were simply expecting something else so we miss Him. I was hoping they would have that series online but it doesn't look like they do yet. Interesting thought though, at least to me :)
 
Top