What"s with all the secrecy???

[Riverwolf]

Ahh, thank you.

Your right to think this isn't enough for me, ofcourse. My previous message in this thread made that clear. What Id like to know is why is this enough for you? I hope you will give me a detailed reply. More or less everything that justifies your 'faith', as well as your faith in Amma.

I want to believe, and have no reason not to right now. However, I fully admit that my faith is a suspension of logic, which I try to apply to all other aspects of my life, and to my thinking. Sages, authors, poets, and most every religious teacher from all faiths and all times have taught that logic can be a detriment to the spiritual path. Considering the numbers, and the fact that many of these people would not necessarily have been aware of each other, that's enough for me to consider that they may have a point. Giving it a bit of thought myself, it could make sense that logic can sometimes be a detriment, since it can only tell us so much, and the default position must always be that something is false until it can be definitively demonstrated to be true. For someone on the spiritual path, this can be a serious distraction. If someone is able to walk a spiritual path without letting logic get in the way, that's great. However, I'm very easily distracted, so I have to suspend my logic for my path. Once I can develop more focus, then I can start bringing more logic into it.

I also do agree with what Spock said in Star Trek VI: logic is the beginning of wisdom, not the end. That's actually why I do apply logic to other aspects of my life, and even to parts of my beliefs, as well. This does allow me to catch when a Sage's teaching may be flawed somehow, if not outright wrong, which does happen now and then.

One very important thing you need to understand is the beliefs are actually part of the path; why in the world would I perform Puja to the Linga if I didn't believe it was a representation of Brahman, or pray to Lord Ganesha if I didn't believe he would remove obstacles? These actions are part of the path and require beliefs for them to have any real effect, even if it's just placebo. So far, they haven't been a detriment to me or my growth.

Just as a clarification, however. The Hindu concept of an avatar is a bit more complicated than "God comes down to earth", and does need a bit of explanation. Simply put: avatars by and large incarnate as humans, and act the part. No miracles, no magic tricks, just acting as humans, faults and all, for the sake of proving a point or teaching a message. The full avatars are actually quite rare, and only come if the world is in SERIOUS jeopardy, such as Rama or Krishna.

I'd go into more detail, but it's getting late and dinner's getting cold. ^_^

 

[Acim]

I don't know if you're aware of this but you have summarized a serious philosophical argument known as the argument from divine hiddenness or the argument from nonbelief. Simply put, a divine creator would make every reasonably honest person believe the creator is real if the creator was really serious about convincing people that s/he/it was real. I find it a very impressive and persuasive argument when applied to revealed religions. Some skeptics will even put the burden on theists to prove their beliefs by stating extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence to validate them.

I like to do the 'extraordinary claim' thing on idea of physical existence. You / we can treat it as ordinary claim all we desire, but truth is, we have no objective evidence for said existence. We validate the physical by using physical senses. Akin to validating the Bible is word of God because the Bible says so.

What I find instead are pathetic excuses for why we don't have powerful, overwhelming evidence demonstrating these claims. Did Jesus rise from the dead? Well, in the 40 days between his resurrection and his ascension, why didn't he write his own gospel on papyrus scrolls and sign his name for all the world to see along with the signature of his disciples who were with him as witnesses? Why not give irrefutable proof that he is indeed alive and risen by writing on papyrus scrolls or thin golden plates about his life, about God's plan, giving humanity all the proofs it could ever need or want that Jesus is risen and alive?

While I can see the 'logic' in this, I assure you, this would not lead to any conviction. Instead, through various versions of revelation (some personal, but not all personal), one learns that Jesus instead went a bit out of his way to make his physical mission non evidential. There is already enough Christian idolatry of physical Jesus, and is precisely why Jesus didn't go further to establish 'him' as the way. Christ is the Way, Jesus was but one (of several) examples. If one looks around, for progressive revelation, one sees that Christ has authored (but of course not scribed) several texts. IMO, all the 'good' ones are in last 50 years or so.

And all the (good) ones I am familiar with, make it I would say very clear, that Christ is within you. If "Christ" is some sort of hang up that makes it harder to understand or receive message, then go with what works, say instead to "my self." Another thing a "good" scripture does, though this is my opinion, is instruct you to put the book aside when own (inner) Counsel is realized. The Word of God is not found in a book. The symbolic form of Word may be. But Word is within, and "good" books are all about connecting you to that, not having you become reliant on an outer message / outer guru. For awhile that outer teaching may be necessary, but if not set aside, it can, rather easily, became an idol that one would hold as more important than anything, including God Self.

 

[ScottySatan]

if the supernatural does exist. what's with all the secrecy? out of all of the gods "known" to man throughout history, not a single one has made his actual existence known. never did a sky daddy come down to show himself to everyone... why??

If a god had done that, the people would write about it and tell everyone about it. Would you believe them?

 

[bushidogrendel]

If a god had done that, the people would write about it and tell everyone about it. Would you believe them?

no need to believe in writings and hearsay....... god can simply drop down into the stadium at the world cup finale, or at the superbowl..... plenty people there within the stadium, plenty people watching LIVE on their tv.........IRREFUTABLE

 

[bushidogrendel]

God gave us free will, and if we were so sure that God was watching our every move, we wouldn't be able to act upon our free will, because it would virtually disappear.

i disagree my friend...... if we knew for a fact that god exists we would use our free will to submit, or refuse to submit to him.... those who chose to refuse to submit, wouldnt care if god was watching them after that, because they knew for a fact they would go to hell anyway.....

also, realize that through your statement above, you have involuntarily admitted to agnosticism.....you are implying that BELIEVERS only have free will because they are not really sure whether god exists, because if they did know that god existed, they wouldnt be able to act upon their free will ACCORDING TO YOU. L.O.L.:clap

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

Holy Wow! I just found a Jack Pot of answers as to why all the secrecy.
I think you will love this! It is just one article and very worth reading if you want to continue on this debate.

The Value of the Veil - Liahona Dec. 1991

Tell me if that does not solve all your questions!

 

[heretic]

God has given us many evidences of his existence through the ongoing creation of everything around us , ll the universal and natural phenomenon and the natural laws behind it clearly proves the evidence of the existence of a powerful intelligence

God used many ways to guide us to him , through his prophets , messengers , angels ,and holy books ,in addition to the things mentioned before. how to know if those books are true this is another story

God in his own essence , has a will (or a form of desire) of building a unique relationships with someone else , thus he created man , and gave him the required characteristics to involve in such a relation (love , mercy , sympathy , intelligence , valuing knowledge , thinking , ... and most important imagination which is the uniqueness of human above all other creatures , the instinct to search for the divine being , and free will

Now human has everything required to make his own philosophy of life, existence and God , and he has the will to believe why should believe in God ,or does God worth to believe in and love .this differs him from other beings who don't have the free will to make their own faith , this what make the relationship between God and human more expensive and worthy .

How this all work if we could see God just like I see my friends , or family, as a normal habit or activity , for me , I prefer not to see him in this life , unless I know a certain level of knowledge about him ,and really I enjoy seeking it

 

[Quagmire]

And you know this how exactly?

No answer.

That's OK, wasn't really expecting one.

 

[Blackdog22]

God has given us many evidences of his existence through the ongoing creation of everything around us , ll the universal and natural phenomenon and the natural laws behind it clearly proves the evidence of the existence of a powerful intelligence

Not really. First off I would ask which God? Then, if you could prove that God was the actual God that created us I would ask, is he proof that a God created him? This would go on forever and actually proves nothing.

God used many ways to guide us to him , through his prophets , messengers , angels ,and holy books ,in addition to the things mentioned before. how to know if those books are true this is another story

You pretty much answered this one. Between the contradictions and the extraordinary claims. There is no way anyone can believe any of the things these prophets claimed without faith. A virtue I personally find embarrassing. Also God speaking to a couple dudes and then deciding that this was enough is completely ridiculous. Besides the fact that these messages sometimes contradict each other, why exactly are these people so special? They get a personal hotline with God, but the rest of us don't? We get to have faith or hell? Hmmm

How this all work if we could see God just like I see my friends , or family, as a normal habit or activity , for me , I prefer not to see him in this life , unless I know a certain level of knowledge about him ,and really I enjoy seeking it

Really? Like... really, really? So if God showed up to you to show you personally what he was all about you would be upset? I think you are being a bit dishonest here to make up for the fact that your God doesn't really exist.

 

[sojourner]

if the supernatural does exist. what's with all the secrecy? out of all of the gods "known" to man throughout history, not a single one has made his actual existence known. never did a sky daddy come down to show himself to everyone... why?? why does god not make his existence known, and then let everyone decide whether or not they would like to worship him for eternity??? why turn it into a silly game of hide and seek, where only some humans claim that the gods have revealed themselves to them, while others are left in the dark....... why not just make his existence known and let us make the decision whether or not to follow him.... we will still have free will of course....

Who said God is a "sky daddy?" Who said God is even a particular being? I maintain that there are signs of God all around and within us. We can't help it if you're looking for bridge mix in an auto repair shop.:faint:

 

[sojourner]

I don't know if you're aware of this but you have summarized a serious philosophical argument known as the argument from divine hiddenness or the argument from nonbelief. Simply put, a divine creator would make every reasonably honest person believe the creator is real if the creator was really serious about convincing people that s/he/it was real. I find it a very impressive and persuasive argument when applied to revealed religions. Some skeptics will even put the burden on theists to prove their beliefs by stating extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence to validate them.

What I have noticed is that many believers in revealed religion will expect skeptics to be impressed with arguments that employ very weak standards of evidence. For example, some Christians will cite the appearance of the risen Jesus to over 500 people in 1st Corinthians 15 in a creed that was supposedly given to St. Paul by other apostles. What I notice is that believers never provide the names of any of these 500+ people, never describe exactly what each of them saw, never provide any independent verifiable documentation from these 500+ people, explaining who they are, what their background and level of education was, what they saw, how they knew it was Jesus, whether they were Jewish, Greek, Roman, or any other cultural background. We don't know how other alternatives were ruled out or how we know the 500+ people were being honest.

I was reading a book written by a Mormon on Tuesday afternoon at a local library. I recall thinking that if Joseph Smith Jr was right and he did translate the Book of Mormon from plates that were compiled by Mormon and hidden in a hill by Moroni, then why aren't these plates in an archeological museum? If the risen Jesus really did appear to Native Americans, why didn't Jesus write down on golden plates the gospel in it's "fullness"? Why didn't Jesus write a statement for all the world to read, signing it with his very own finger, to be a testimony to all the nations that, yes, he really was alive after his resurrection and really was on the North American continent?

What I find instead are pathetic excuses for why we don't have powerful, overwhelming evidence demonstrating these claims. Did Jesus rise from the dead? Well, in the 40 days between his resurrection and his ascension, why didn't he write his own gospel on papyrus scrolls and sign his name for all the world to see along with the signature of his disciples who were with him as witnesses? Why not give irrefutable proof that he is indeed alive and risen by writing on papyrus scrolls or thin golden plates about his life, about God's plan, giving humanity all the proofs it could ever need or want that Jesus is risen and alive?

I think we do have powerful, overwhelming evidence, but you'll probably dismiss that, too, in your worship of blind skepticism.

 

[sojourner]

I wouldn't be convinced anyway. A written scroll is unimpressive. There are lots of extraordinary writings, and I have no reason to think that any of them are of divine origin. I would need a lot more than this. I would need to see Jesus, hopefully speak to him, see miracles, take a trip to heaven to verify that it is a real place. This is the kind of evidence which would convince me that Jesus is real. Faith that develops from seeing a piece of writing is unjustified. How about curing the world of all forms of disease? Or preventing all natural disasters? But even then, how would we know God did it? Maybe aliens did it. Maybe we are in a simulation. There are plenty of other possible explanations that come to mind.

I'm calling you out. I doubt you'd believe even if you were standing face-to-face with him. Many people did stand face-to-face with him, and they doubted. This call for "powerful, overwhelming evidence" is nothing more than a cheap smokescreen for some to hide behind. It's a very convenient excuse for some to be able to say, "I haven't seen anything to satisfy me, so I'm exempt from the difficult work of seeing with the inner eye."

 

[crocusj]

One of the reasons God doesn't make His existence clearly known to mankind is because He wants us to believe in His existence, rather than have clear cut knowledge that He exist. Many things can happen throughout a person's life that can point to the Divine. However, God gave us free will, and if we were so sure that God was watching our every move, we wouldn't be able to act upon our free will, because it would virtually disappear. God wants to give us eternal reward for fighting our evil inclinations and living a fulfilling life of family, good deeds, and obedience to His Will. With perfect knowledge of God's existence, the purpose of life wouldn't be served.

You have repeatedly asserted that you have clear cut knowledge that your god exists. You have repeatedly offered absolute proof that your god exists. Under these circumstances, how does your free will not disappear as you describe above.
BTW, you may have evil inclinations, I do not.

 

[839311]

I'm calling you out. I doubt you'd believe even if you were standing face-to-face with him. Many people did stand face-to-face with him, and they doubted. This call for "powerful, overwhelming evidence" is nothing more than a cheap smokescreen for some to hide behind. It's a very convenient excuse for some to be able to say, "I haven't seen anything to satisfy me, so I'm exempt from the difficult work of seeing with the inner eye."

Standing face-to-face is unimpressive. Like I said, I would have to see a lot more before I would accept that this person standing in front of me is somekind of 'superbeing'. What reason is there to accept him as such if he hasn't proven it? How many delusional people are out there that claim extraordinary things? We both know there are plenty. So, what kind of evidence would I need? Well, if he is claiming that he has power, then Id like to see it. If he is claiming he is the Son of God, then I would need some kind of evidence of that also. Maybe a trip to heaven to meet God and hear it from him that this person is his son. Being credulous regarding such claims is foolish.

Also, if God is real, then I am inclined to think that he would not respect credulity. Logic, wisdom, and reasonable thinking, however, are always respectable. Unfortunately, Sojourner, I think credulity isn't worth a nickel - and I think God would agree. Whether or not your faith has a true foundation is something you should reflect on.

A dose of skepticism would be wise. Maybe were in a simulation and this being is nothing more than part of the program, as might God be. How could we ever be sure that we arent in a simulation? How could even God be sure he isnt in a simulation?

 

[bushidogrendel]

Who said God is a "sky daddy?"

Dr. PULICA FRANARU did. now i ask you. who said god is not a sky daddy?

Who said God is even a particular being?

MR. SARUTAM CURU did, now i ask you. who said god is not a particular being? in fact, who said god in an imparticular being?

I maintain that there are signs of God all around and within us. We can't help it if you're looking for bridge mix in an auto repair shop.:faint:

and i maintain that there are no signs of god anywhere around or within us. we cant help it if youre looking for a bible in a strip club.

 

[heretic]

Not really. First off I would ask which God? .

I'm not agree with your approach , we can't prove God existence starting with the Gods we know at least and study whether this God is the real God or not , like I said we start with what around us and a little concentrating and thinking logically we will be sure that there's a higher intelligence created all those we sense , this initiates the first perception of God , then along journey of seeking and evaluating to find and believe in what is most logical , appropriate , which has no contradictions with science.

Then, if you could prove that God was the actual God that created us I would ask, is he proof that a God created him? This would go on forever and actually proves nothing.
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Actually this proves that a being created universe and what included from nothing, and was not created , how to prove that is not easy and I don't know what for, to prove that God exist? , It's much in-hand to prove from bottom-up not up-down. any way I'll seek for it and may be discuss what we find .

But for now ,we all know the imaginary number i=sqrt(-1) , which mathematically impossible because -1 * -1 = 1 , but does it really exist ?,the answer is yes it does ,physics , atomic engineering and many practical equations -in aircraft constructions for example - were not be possible without i
what I want to say, is if you don't know something this doesn't mean that it doesn't exist .There is a great creativity in the universe , which cannot be doubted that an intelligent being make it , it cannot exist by chance or by a mere theory of evolution. If we couldn't prove that God has no God created him , this doesn't prove that universe and us have no God created them.
I remembered wgat Einstein once said

"I believe in a God who reveals Himself in the lawful harmony of the world"​

You pretty much answered this one. Between the contradictions and the extraordinary claims. There is no way anyone can believe any of the things these prophets claimed without faith. A virtue I personally find embarrassing. Also God speaking to a couple dudes and then deciding that this was enough is completely ridiculous. Besides the fact that these messages sometimes contradict each other, why exactly are these people so special? They get a personal hotline with God, but the rest of us don't? We get to have faith or hell? Hmmm


.

I can't prove that a book or a message is totally false or totally true ,because they were under many tries to change along the history , but I think this opens an opportunity to research ,evaluate and choose , not to reject

Really? Like... really, really? So if God showed up to you to show you personally what he was all about you would be upset? I think you are being a bit dishonest here to make up for the fact that your God doesn't really exist.

I believe that I will meet God in afterlife , not this one , till that time I prefer to build my own relationship with God ,

you can't suppose what is my belief ,and you were wrong in your supposition. Here I like to debate and exchange ideas , not to assess my believes or others'.

in fact we build our believes each in own many ways, and we see things through those believes.

 

[Matthew78]

I think we do have powerful, overwhelming evidence, but you'll probably dismiss that, too, in your worship of blind skepticism.

My "worship of blind skepticism"? What is that supposed to mean?

What powerful, overwhelming evidence do you believe exists?

 

[Matthew78]

I'm calling you out. I doubt you'd believe even if you were standing face-to-face with him.

I'm calling you out! I doubt you would disbelieve that the Bible is the word of any god even if the flaws of the Bible were pointed out to you and the bones of Jesus exumed and paraded before you.

Many people did stand face-to-face with him, and they doubted.

I defy you to prove this actually happened.

This call for "powerful, overwhelming evidence" is nothing more than a cheap smokescreen for some to hide behind. It's a very convenient excuse for some to be able to say, "I haven't seen anything to satisfy me, so I'm exempt from the difficult work of seeing with the inner eye."

I defy you to prove this! The call for powerful, overwhelming evidence is exactly what any honest, rational person should ask for. You dismiss it as a smokescreen. Why? Well, I'm guessing because you believe that infidels like me are just a bunch of selfish, spoiled, immature brats who don't want to worship God and we're engaged in childish rebellion against him. Isn't that right?

I have news for you. The lack of powerful, overwhelming evidence is not my chief reason for disbelief. My historical reason for disbelief is that the Bible has flaws in them: discrepancies, errors, and failed prophecies. The Bible has flaws in it that no divine being would ever inspire. I used to believe that the Bible was the "inerrant, inspired, infallible word of God" and that Jesus Christ was God incarnate in human flesh, that he died for our sins, and rose from the dead. I'm embarrassed that I had these beliefs but I woke up.

Before you or other Christians like you advise me to read nonsense by Christian authors like Josh McDowell, Lee Strobel, or other apologists, let me spare you the trouble. I have read their books. I have read pathetic nonsense like The Case for Christ and Evidence That Demands a Verdict. I have read pathetic nonsense like Gleason Archer's The Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties. I'm very confident that the Christian faith is utter nonsense and that attempts to defend it are intellectual quackery at best and dishonest spin at worst.

So, you want to back up your pathetic and silly accusation that I "worship" this "blind skepticism"?

 

[Azekual]

why does god not make his existence known, and then let everyone decide whether or not they would like to worship him for eternity??? .

If a god were to make it's existence known to mankind, you wouldn't have a choice, especially if it's the Creator-god. You would know that it exists and you would be expected to worship. To not do so would be denying it's divinity, and that would hurt its fragile ego (Greco-roman mythology is a prime example of big gods with fragile egos), then they'd have to kill you.
It would been like you having a kid, not seeing him for several years, then come back (possibly with gifts and presents) only for your kid to say "You're not my father", which is devastating for any father.

 

[Yanni]

You have repeatedly asserted that you have clear cut knowledge that your god exists. You have repeatedly offered absolute proof that your god exists. Under these circumstances, how does your free will not disappear as you describe above.
BTW, you may have evil inclinations, I do not.

There are different levels of knowledge. I have clear cut knowlegde that God exists. However, I never experienced a direct communication with God, hearing God's own voice, that would make my body shudder from fear and awe. I haven't yet experienced that form of knowledge. And regarding evil inclinations, everybody has some kind of desire for something that he/she knows is either wrong or bad (like having a desire to eat more cake for someone who's trying to lose a significant amount of weight). It doesn't necessarily refer to a desire for "evil." It's just a general term referring to our desires for not-such-good things (smoking might be one of them).