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What Shall We Do about Radar-Confirmed UFOs?

Nietzsche

The Last Prussian
Premium Member
Given the way this is written - neither.

Or, why galaxy far, far away, when it could be within our own solar system, or own galaxy for sure.
I was making a Star Wars joke, dear.

And/or, if government doesn't want anyone to know, they why are they showing their hand? And why in current wars are they not utilizing such technology to put an end to feebly fought wars that are relying on primitive technology?

Being UFO, it is truly unidentified (by all humans), so the neither response makes most sense, really. If it's other world aliens (and some of us know this) or is us/hidden government, then technically not a UFO (in either case). Or if it is a UFO, then by such a loose definition, I personally see UFO's every day. Might be identified by other humans and known what they are, but for me they are unidentified FO's.
Oh, you do? You got any hard evidence for this, Agent Mulder? Or is this just another "totes for real" take your word on it kinda thing, like people who claim to have touched Bigfoot or rode the Loch Ness Monster?
 

Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
Actually, it's quite unlikely that any intelligent alien life is aware of intelligent life on earth yet. If they were, I think that they would be attempting to visit, or at least communicating. Also, keep in mind that the human species is theoretically in a very early stage of intelligence and communications, so we may not be detecting many of the signals from intelligent extraterrestrials, who may well be using media of communications that we have not yet developed. Bear in mind we have only recently developed radio astronomy, and can't even get manned spacecraft past the moon. This level of development could be comparable to the Stone Age in comparison to more highly evolved civilizations.

We can only hope they are intelligent enough to identify jokes and other humorous forms.
 

BSM1

What? Me worry?
Not long ago I came across an article at listserve.com that briefly describes “10 Mysterious UFO Incidents Confirmed By Radar”. I wasn't familiar with all of these cases, but I had read a little about a couple of them.

Ironically, as its only source for the March 30-31, 1990 sightings in Belgium (item #2), the article links to a Wikipedia entry, the majority of which consists of two sections, the first pertaining to a single photo that the Wikipedia article claims was taken in 1990 and was a hoax, on the basis of a statement of an anonymous person claiming 20-years later to have been the hoaxer. However, as one can easily discover, the photo shown is not the one that appeared on the cover of the 1991 publication of Société belge d'étude des phénomènes spatiaux (SOBEPS), and which was examined in the early 1990s by numerous scientists, including a former NASA scientist and 2 scientists at France's CNES, who authenticated that, inter alia, the photo showed no indication of tampering, that “the middle light is very different from the three other lights,” and that the photographer was stationary while the object was moving (the person claiming to be the hoaxer apparently said he took a photo of a painted styrofoam triangle with flashlights embedded in it and hanging from a string). As Belgium Major General De Brouwer explains in a chapter he wrote in Leslie Kean's UFOs: Generals, Pilots and Government Officials Go on the Record (Foreword by John Podesta), digital analysis of the original photo in 2002 by nuclear physics professor Andre Marion of University of Paris-Sud and CNES revealed that the object was surrounded by a “halo” in which photons were aligned in patterns, similar to the “lines of force” patterns of iron filings in a magnetic field, leading Marion to speculate that the craft may have employed some form of magnetoplasmadynamic propulsion. It was on the basis of these and other facts about the photo that Marion concluded that it was very unlikely to be a fake. (From DeBrouwer's footnote 4, quoting Marion's paper: “The existence of the 'lines of force' is a strong argument against the thesis of a hoax, which would be particularly sophisticated. Moreover, it is unclear why a forger would have bothered to imagine and realize a complex phenomenon, especially since it is not noticeable without sophisticated processing of the slide."). The Wikipedia article does not indicate that there has been any expert examination of the photo shown in the article, much less that it has been found to exhibit these same unique characteristics as the original photo.

In addition, a Brussels shopkeeper has provided a video of a similar object (triangular formation of lights), which the Wikipedia article doesn't mention.

The next section of the Wikipedia article, “Skeptical Explanations,” quotes two people asserting that the thousands of reports of seeing such object(s) were merely due to a “mass delusion” or “psycho-social phenomenon”. This fails to account for the facts in more than one way. The initial sightings and descriptions of the UFO in November 1989 were made independently by 5 Belgian gendarmes within a short while of each other. A total of 13 gendarmes and more than 250 private citizens in this area gave similar reports that day. It is beyond implausible that the Eupen area of Belgium suddenly had a lot of hallucinating federal police officers all having the same hallucination. In March 1990, a group of people at a private dinner party reported unusual bright lights in the sky; the gendarme who responded witnessed these multi-colored (color-changing) lights, and at the same time the Glons NATO radar station detected an unknown object at the location of the reports. Three other radar stations reported the same signal. These facts are not accounted as a mass delusion or hallucination. The Belgian Air Force scrambled two F-16s, which, during a 75-minute chase, had brief radar contact and locked on the target 3 times, each time the lock quickly breaking as the object made freakish changes in altitude, direction and speed. See the official report by the Belgian Air Force.

The Wikipedia article also quotes someone's comments made on a skeptoid.com podcast claiming that “upon analyzing the data, all three radar locks were on each other.” The Belgian Air Force report says no such thing, and its description of the behavior of the target and the breaking of the locks unequivocally contradicts such possibility. Neither the Wikipedia article nor the transcript of the podcast cite any analysis of the radar data. The podcaster's next sentence is: “The other contacts were all found to be the result of a well-known atmospheric interference called Bragg scattering.” But no source is cited for such a “finding,” and the facts noted in the Belgian Air Force report explicitly rule out the conditions for such false echoes (“during the radar observation, there was no meteorological inversion in progress”), in addition to the facts that (a) the behavior of the radar contacts rule out false echoes, (b) the signal was seen on 4 different radar systems, and (c) the contacts were “in the same area as visual observations.” It seems the only verifiable delusions or fabrications relating to this incident are those of the “skeptics”.

One of the more succinct and thorough video reports that I've found on this incident is this, apparently a segment from the Unsolved Mysteries TV show. It includes interviews with, inter alia, the officers who initially reported seeing the UFO, and video of the F-16 radar screen. In fact, the Wikipedia article mentions this episode in it's initial section, noting that “narrator Robert Stack added in an episode of Unsolved Mysteries, the sudden changes in acceleration and deceleration would have been fatal to one or more human pilots.” But this detail did not originate with Stack or the TV program; rather, it was noted in the July 1990 Paris Match article whose source was the Belgium Defense Ministry: “But the object had speeded up from an initial velocity of 280 KPH to 1,800 KPH, while descending from 3,000 meters to 1,700 meters...in one second! This fantastic acceleration corresponds to 40 Gs. It would cause immediate death to a human on board. The limit of what a pilot can take is about 8 Gs.”

Item #9 on the Listserve article describes the 2004 sighting in Campeche, Mexico by the Mexican air force. The video of the infrared footage does not exist at the link provided, but you can find it here.

There does not seem to be any explanation of these 11 crafts as being human-made, and certainly this was not some kind of natural atmospheric phenomenon.

Most aerial phenomena that are reported to authorities as unidentified by the observers are found to have entirely prosaic explanations. However, the 1999 report by the French COMETA--a committee of scientific and military experts and pilots commissioned by the Institut des hautes études de défense nationale (IHEDN) for the purpose of in-depth study of UFOs (UAPs)--found that in 62 countries between 1948 and 1999 there were 489 well-documented UAP cases classified as Category D, i.e., “phenomena that cannot be identified despite the abundance and quality of the data,” representing 4-5% of all UAP sightings that had been documented and studied. Of these 489 Category D cases, 101 (21%) were “radar/visual” incidents, in which there was a visual sighting that was associated with a radar detection. COMETA noted the same rate for the 363 cases of examined UFO incidents collected in the USAF Blue Book Project (1947-1969): 21% were “radar/visual” incidents. COMETA Report Part 1 and Part 2.

So these are my questions:

How do you account for these UFOs, such as the ones noted here? Are there rational reasons to conclude that the Belgian and Mexican incidents (for instance) are not of extraterrestrial origin?

Should governments withhold from the public the findings of their own investigations on such incidents? Doesn't secrecy by a government imply there is something more to these incidents than ordinary aerial phenomena (or hallucinations)?

Should military and aviation personnel be prosecuted for publicly speaking about their own sightings and experiences?

Do you support Congressional hearings where government and aviation employees can testify with immunity from prosecution?


I was a radar tech in the Navy during in the early 70's. One night in some Mediterranean port me and another tech were calibrating the repeaters. We noticed a blip appear at the edge of the screen so we tracked it because it was moving fast. We were able calculate the speed of the contact at about 2500 mph. As amazing as that was we were looking at the surface radar so the thing could not have been more than ten feet off the surface of the water. Weird, huh?
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
So we confirmed that these are unidentified? Not much left to do but identify them.
What method would you use in order to identify them--at least as best you can identify them?

How about first eliminating what they definitely are not?
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
There's nothing we can do to change the illusions that are put in our individual minds. If you see a UFO or aliens, then you're one of the lucky ones who gets these kinds of illusions to observe.

Against unidentified objects posing unthreats I take unaction.

I think we should continue to appease them by offering our cows and redneck anuses to be chopped-up or probed at their pleasure, as well as allowing them only to be photographed using cameras capable of producing grainy, low-resolution images. In thus way, we can hopefully stave off a massive expansion of their butt probing and cattle butchering activities.

Meanwhile....on mars

How-to-change-background-in-photoshop-1024x724.jpg

Ehh maybe shorten your post next time. Just a suggestion. Anyway, I certainly believe in intelligent alien life since we live in a universe of hundreds of billions of galaxies, each containing hundreds of billions of stars (on average). Don't believe any of them have ever visited earth yet however.

Man you can sure be wordy, can't you?

Pro-tip;

UFO doesn't mean alien. UFO means "Unidentified Flying Object". That is to say "It's certainly a flying thing, but I'm not sure what".

Tell me, what do you think is more likely; some intelligence from a galaxy far, far away or an aircraft by a human government who doesn't want anyone to know what it has?

And filmed only by those apparently suffering from advanced Parkinson's.
Were these two questions too difficult for you guys:

How do you account for these UFOs, such as the ones noted here? Are there rational reasons to conclude that the Belgian and Mexican incidents (for instance) are not of extraterrestrial origin?

?
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Tell me, what do you think is more likely; some intelligence from a galaxy far, far away or an aircraft by a human government who doesn't want anyone to know what it has?
There is zero probability that “a human government who doesn't want anyone to know it has” a particular aircraft would parade it over densely populated areas of Europe, with multi-colored lights beaming from it in the early evening. There is zero probability that “a human government who doesn't want anyone to know it has” an aircraft that is radar-visible would fly it through radar-protected air space night after night for several months.

Man you can sure be wordy, can't you?
Did one of my sentences state a fact that you already knew? If so, which one?

Pro-tip;

UFO doesn't mean alien.
Pro-tip: read closely enough to recognize that I never said or implied any such thing. The word "alien" doesn't even occur in the OP.
 

Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
Were these two questions too difficult for you guys:

How do you account for these UFOs, such as the ones noted here? Are there rational reasons to conclude that the Belgian and Mexican incidents (for instance) are not of extraterrestrial origin?

?

<<fbitrackingcode:initiate//2ab.10010/type:forum|id:nous**:32aYzQp82.|.>>
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
From my experiences, science seems to trump science. What you see and proclaim as truth today is not what you see and proclaim as truth tomorrow, even if it takes years.
That's true for some things. But the proclamation and belief that the earth is spheroid has endured for a good while now. I don't know of any scientific fact that is likely to persuade anyone of anything different.

So, how do you account for the UFOs noted in the OP? Is there rational reason to conclude that the Belgian and Mexican incidents are not of extraterrestrial origin?
 

Kemosloby

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
What method would you use in order to identify them--at least as best you can identify them?

How about first eliminating what they definitely are not?
They definitely are not identified, so we can rest assured these are definitely unidentified flying objects.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
And/or, if government doesn't want anyone to know, they why are they showing their hand?
Oh, I see you already said that. Thank you.

And why in current wars are they not utilizing such technology to put an end to feebly fought wars that are relying on primitive technology?
Another good point.
 

Wu Wei

ursus senum severiorum and ex-Bisy Backson
Were these two questions too difficult for you guys:

How do you account for these UFOs, such as the ones noted here? Are there rational reasons to conclude that the Belgian and Mexican incidents (for instance) are not of extraterrestrial origin?

?

Not to hard at all, just did not take it seriously. It had already been stated a UFO does not mean aliens, it means Unidentified Flying Object. I have a great UFO picture at home and I have yet to have anyone identify it when it is shown to them, there for it is a UFO. However it is a white Frisbee, rather high up and with the sun hitting it just right......
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
They definitely are not identified, so we can rest assured these are definitely unidentified flying objects.
So you can't answer either of these questions:

]What method would you use in order to identify them--at least as best you can identify them?

How about first eliminating what they definitely are not?
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I was a radar tech in the Navy during in the early 70's. One night in some Mediterranean port me and another tech were calibrating the repeaters. We noticed a blip appear at the edge of the screen so we tracked it because it was moving fast. We were able calculate the speed of the contact at about 2500 mph. As amazing as that was we were looking at the surface radar so the thing could not have been more than ten feet off the surface of the water. Weird, huh?
That is weird. Thank you.

By the way, did you get meteorological false echoes on the radar you were using? If so, were you able to distinguish false blips from solid objects?
 

Kemosloby

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
So you can't answer either of these questions:

]What method would you use in order to identify them--at least as best you can identify them?

How about first eliminating what they definitely are not?
They tried that, it ended up being Superman. I would just not worry about it, who cares, it's when we know what they are that we might have a problem.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Not to hard at all, just did not take it seriously. It had already been stated a UFO does not mean aliens, it means Unidentified Flying Object. I have a great UFO picture at home and I have yet to have anyone identify it when it is shown to them, there for it is a UFO. However it is a white Frisbee, rather high up and with the sun hitting it just right......
So you were able to account for the UFO in the picture you have at home.

So I will ask again: How do you account for the UFOs noted in the OP? Are there rational reasons to conclude that the Belgian and Mexican incidents are not of extraterrestrial origin?
 

Wu Wei

ursus senum severiorum and ex-Bisy Backson
So you were able to account for the UFO in the picture you have at home.

So I will ask again: How do you account for the UFOs noted in the OP? Are there rational reasons to conclude that the Belgian and Mexican incidents are not of extraterrestrial origin?

Are there rational reasons to conclude that the Belgian and Mexican incidents are of extraterrestrial origin?
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
They tried that, it ended up being Superman. I would just not worry about it, who cares, it's when we know what they are that we might have a problem.
But if you were to reach the level of maturity beyond the need to troll here, would you be able and willing to answer the simple questions asked in the OP?
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Are there rational reasons to conclude that the Belgian and Mexican incidents are of extraterrestrial origin?
Yes, all you need to do is eliminate that the objects were either human-made or natural atmospheric phenomena.
 

Kemosloby

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
But if you were to reach the level of maturity beyond the need to troll here, would you be able and willing to answer the simple questions asked in the OP?
I don't know, something is only true if the "authorities" say it's true. Other than that I do not have an answer for you, just smart-*** comments.
 
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