What Spiritual Goal is Served By Modest Dress?

[Debater Slayer]

I find it interesting that when asked an open-ended question about modesty, just about everyone in this thread responded in terms of sexuality alone. AFAICT, nobody spoke to another major aspect of modesty: ostentatiousness and displays of wealth.

From what I've seen, perceived displays of the former usually seem to be frowned upon and talked about more than the latter two. I realize that may differ from culture to culture, but most times I've heard "modest" dress code being discussed, it was primarily referring to sexuality-related aspects of it.

Now that you mentioned displays of wealth, I hear far more people criticizing certain clothing styles for being "too revealing" as opposed to this kind of thing, for instance:

 

[Father Heathen]

yes music can be spiritual when it is deliberately composed to be so , when it is composed or dedicated to the purpose of bringing ones attention to something beyond the material , physical realm for the purpose of trancending the material platform .
sex , allthough enjoyable is merely a bodily function , you may for one small moment have the sensation of unity with another but it is not a yoga by which one unites with god.
yes there is more to sex than self gratification , it is a method of bringing children into the world . abstainance is as much a way of experiencing life as is indulgence , to understand life one needs to experience both , the sensations you refer to aply to physical stimuli experienced by the physical sences , these senses belong to the body not the spirit .
it is through controling the physical senses one may become aware of ones spiritual nature .

You insist that the corporeal/physical and the spiritual/mental are opposed, whereas I believe they can be harmonized. To shy from life and the experiences it provides is not spirituality. It's death.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

From what I've seen, perceived displays of the former usually seem to be frowned upon and talked about more than the latter two. I realize that may differ from culture to culture, but most times I've heard "modest" dress code being discussed, it was primarily referring to sexuality-related aspects of it.

It varies from denomination to denomination, too. Mystic and I touched on the Mennonites before; they're a Christian denomination whose ideas of "modest dress" aren't just about covering skin; they're also about avoiding displays of wealth or pridefulness.

Other denominations have different takes on this, obviously.

Now that you mentioned displays of wealth, I hear far more people criticizing certain clothing styles for being "too revealing" as opposed to this kind of thing, for instance:

Yeah - for the most part, when I hear criticisms of religious leaders wearing fancy expensive clothes, it's not usually on the grounds that it's immodest... in my experience, it's usually on other grounds; e.g. that they talk about helping the poor and (judging by their clothes) have the wealth to do a lot of good in that regard, but choose not to.

However, hints of the idea that ostentatiousness is immodest sometimes sneak in... for instance, there's that scene in Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade where Indy has to choose the Holy Grail from a table covered in cups and goblets, and he chooses a plain, unadorned cup.

 

[Father Heathen]

It varies from denomination to denomination, too. Mystic and I touched on the Mennonites before; they're a Christian denomination whose ideas of "modest dress" aren't just about covering skin; they're also about avoiding displays of wealth or pridefulness.

Other denominations have different takes on this, obviously.


Yeah - for the most part, when I hear criticisms of religious leaders wearing fancy expensive clothes, it's not usually on the grounds that it's immodest... in my experience, it's usually on other grounds; e.g. that they talk about helping the poor and (judging by their clothes) have the wealth to do a lot of good in that regard, but choose not to.

However, hints of the idea that ostentatiousness is immodest sometimes sneak in... for instance, there's that scene in Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade where Indy has to choose the Holy Grail from a table covered in cups and goblets, and he chooses a plain, unadorned cup.

Greed and immodesty (regarding wealth) are one of the many dissonances regarding christian conservatives.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I just thought I'd raise the point of ostentatiousness because, at least in my mind, it's probably the aspect of modesty that most clearly relates to spiritual goals:

- a community where displays of wealth are common can exclude those who can't afford displays of wealth themselves. Anyone can afford to dress modestly, so a religious community (or any community, for that matter) where displays of wealth are discouraged can be one that's welcoming to all.

- monetary wealth can be seen as "worldly". If a person is focused on displaying their wealth (and presumably acquiring the wealth he displays), this could be a sign that he's doing this at the expense of "spiritual" concerns.

Edit:

- also, if a religion is concerned about the welfare of others (e.g. the poor), then when a person decides to use their resources to decorate themselves rather than to help others, then this can be a sign that they're not really concerned with other people (or at least not as much as they're supposed to be), since they're putting a want for themselves ahead of a need for someone else.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I just thought I'd raise the point of ostentatiousness because, at least in my mind, it's probably the aspect of modesty that most clearly relates to spiritual goals:

- a community where displays of wealth are common can exclude those who can't afford displays of wealth themselves. Anyone can afford to dress modestly, so a religious community (or any community, for that matter) where displays of wealth are discouraged can be one that's welcoming to all.

- monetary wealth can be seen as "worldly". If a person is focused on displaying their wealth (and presumably acquiring the wealth he displays), this could be a sign that he's doing this at the expense of "spiritual" concerns.

Edit:

- also, if a religion is concerned about the welfare of others (e.g. the poor), then when a person decides to use their resources to decorate themselves rather than to help others, then this can be a sign that they're not really concerned with other people (or at least not as much as they're supposed to be), since they're putting a want for themselves ahead of a need for someone else.

I think some of those are actually pretty reasonable, regardless of whether or not one sees them as having any spiritual value. The first one in particular definitely makes sense to me, and I'd understand why someone saw it as having at least some spiritual value.

 

[Father Heathen]

I just thought I'd raise the point of ostentatiousness because, at least in my mind, it's probably the aspect of modesty that most clearly relates to spiritual goals:

- a community where displays of wealth are common can exclude those who can't afford displays of wealth themselves. Anyone can afford to dress modestly, so a religious community (or any community, for that matter) where displays of wealth are discouraged can be one that's welcoming to all.

- monetary wealth can be seen as "worldly". If a person is focused on displaying their wealth (and presumably acquiring the wealth he displays), this could be a sign that he's doing this at the expense of "spiritual" concerns.

Edit:

- also, if a religion is concerned about the welfare of others (e.g. the poor), then when a person decides to use their resources to decorate themselves rather than to help others, then this can be a sign that they're not really concerned with other people (or at least not as much as they're supposed to be), since they're putting a want for themselves ahead of a need for someone else.

What I don't understand is how people who are typically obsessed with hell fire and damnation could be so confident that their god would abide such cherry picking.

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram mr penguin ,

I find it interesting that when asked an open-ended question about modesty, just about everyone in this thread responded in terms of sexuality alone. AFAICT, nobody spoke to another major aspect of modesty: ostentatiousness and displays of wealth.

I tried to raise this earlier , ..... except most people seem to hung up on the sexual aspect of modesty , .....

how many men spend too much time worrying about their apperance through their posessions and status , and how many women are foolishly distracted by that ? __________________
namaskars :namaste ratikala

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

namaskaram mr penguin ,



I tried to raise this earlier , ..... except most people seem to hung up on the sexual aspect of modesty , .....

Whoops - sorry I overlooked that.

 

[Pegg]

If we were created in god's image, then the very nature that he has given us is also his, correct? To treat the beauty of our body and of our sexuality, god's creations, as "dirty" is actually disrespectful to him. Another great gift god as bestowed upon us is the ability to reason, therefore, because much of what you consider "godly qualities" actually goes against sound reason, they are in fact not of god.

have you ever wondered the reason behind why God clothed Adam and Eve with full length animal skins after they sinned?


If you examine the account, after they sinned, they changed their view of their nakedness from one of innocence, to one of shame. Why do you think they suddenly began to feel shame at their own naked state...a state that God created them in?

 

[steeltoes]

have you ever wondered the reason behind why God clothed Adam and Eve with full length animal skins after they sinned?


If you examine the account, after they sinned, they changed their view of their nakedness from one of innocence, to one of shame. Why do you think they suddenly began to feel shame at their own naked state...a state that God created them in?

I don't know, why?

 

[oldbadger]

I find it interesting that when asked an open-ended question about modesty, just about everyone in this thread responded in terms of sexuality alone. AFAICT, nobody spoke to another major aspect of modesty: ostentatiousness and displays of wealth.

Hi....!

Yep, that was covered a few pages back.

I wrote:-

And so........ clothes are part of the material world........ mammon. Fashion is a crazy allusion that keeps industries, incomes, profit, returns and stars high. Dress is about signalling power, prestige, fashion, sexuality, sophistication and of course keeping warm D).

But the lack of clothing, or minimal clothing, would tend to signal conditions other than wealth, etc, although I guess that a beautiful person dressed scantily could be seen as ostentatious....?

 

[Looncall]

have you ever wondered the reason behind why God clothed Adam and Eve with full length animal skins after they sinned?


If you examine the account, after they sinned, they changed their view of their nakedness from one of innocence, to one of shame. Why do you think they suddenly began to feel shame at their own naked state...a state that God created them in?

Except that it never happened. Your question is like asking which way Sherlock Holmes faced on a train where Conan Doyle did not specify jt.

 

[Aristocrat]

I did not read the entirety of this thread before piping in, only the first few pages and then skimmed the rest, so sorry if I go over already covered ground. But I think modest dress, in both the sexual and ostentatious way has several spiritual benefits:
-Encourages simplicity and moderation
-Reduces vanity
-Reduces sexual attention
- Excessive material goods draw us away from the divine

 

[Pegg]

I don't know, why?

Father Heathen said:
To treat the beauty of our body and of our sexuality, god's creations, as "dirty" is actually disrespectful to him.

I responded by asking the question, 'why do you think God covered them in full length animal skins'

and the answer is because they began to look at their 'nakedness' in a perverted/dirty way and this caused them to feel shame about themselves in how they were thinking. They immediately covered their genitals to hide them from the others view. They knew that their thinking was wrong and their shame and hiding was an evidence that their conscience was telling them something wasnt right with their thoughts.

And today we see the full extent of that perversion in the various forms of vile pornography and the sexual abuses rife in all societies.

Then God, showing great mercy and care, lovingly dignified them by clothing them in full length animal skins as a way to protect them from themselves....and this is why clothing has become a necessity for humans...its because of our own perverted view of our sex organs that we have a need to cover them. The clothing dignifies us because it prevents anyone from looking upon our sexual organs with perverted eyes....ie wanting to use them for a purpose they were not designed.

 

[Pegg]

Except that it never happened. Your question is like asking which way Sherlock Holmes faced on a train where Conan Doyle did not specify jt.

everyone has parents, grand parents, great great grandparents, great great great grandparents and so on and so on


all these parents have to have begun with at least 1 pair.

 

[illykitty]

I see modest dress as a way to not distract ourselves with things that either inhibit or doesn't add to spiritual progress. If you're distracted about what you look like (sexy, wealthy, etc.) you spend less time thinking about the divine and more about the material world.

For me it's about one being distracted and hung up on how they look, regardless of what others think or look at you. So modest dress is not to protect from others, it's to protect from your own self.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

everyone has parents, grand parents, great great grandparents, great great great grandparents and so on and so on


all these parents have to have begun with at least 1 pair.

Many pairs, actually.

 

[roger1440]

What spiritual goal, if any, is served by modest dress? Or is there some other purpose to modest dress than to serve a spiritual goal?

If I would use just one word it would be humility