What was the Death of Jesus about?

[blü 2]

It seems you wrote me this before reading the rest of my post. It is okay, I forgive your laziness

For my errors, my apology.

Thanks for your reply.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

Where does that leave the Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Unbelievers, Others? In hell?

Why would an omnipotent being be bound by scriptures?

I didn't say these things.

This is a conversation you are having with another RF member.

I don't know why they were attributed to me.

 

[blü 2]

I think Bible gives 3 reasons.

Thanks for addressing the question.

First is, it was predicted that it will happen, therefore it kind of had to happen.

Sort of, kind of thing, as it were ... okay.

Second reason is this:

For to this end Christ died, rose, and lived again, that he might be Lord of both the dead and the living.
Romans 14:9

But WHY is that the only way to go about it? Next time I'm an omnipotent benevolent God there won't be anyone tortured or put to death ─ if I want something I'll think it through then snap my omnipotent fingers.

And third reason is:

Most assuredly I tell you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains by itself alone. But if it dies, it bears much fruit.
John 12:24

Before Jesus died and Jesus when Jesus was dead, his disciples were fearful. When Jesus was risen, his disciples got the courage to continue in spite of any torture. So, I think one of the reasons for death to be allowed was to get the chance to rise from the death and make disciples fearless.

Analogy of the seed ─ interesting take ─ thanks. It follows that the death needs to be sensational to be noticed.

But it certainly doesn't imply an omnipotent God in charge, to whom any desired result is just a thought away.

And about the intermediate. God has had many of them, Moses and all the prophets.

But Jesus, at least in John, say he's the ONLY way to God. Big difference.

Thanks again.

 

[blü 2]

The complexity in Jesus’ relation to particular individuals is due to him attempting to live a human life, free from ego (and therefore also from attachment). I do not see this as “hostility” however, but we appear to read the Gospel very differently.

In the NT, Jesus is hardly free of ego. He argues with church elders, he fights with his ma and his family, he kills the olive tree that offends him, he takes a whip to the (entirely lawful) temple traders ... and so on.

There are ways of reading the Gospel by which the questions you posted in your OP can be answered, but you will not find those answers in the way that you have been reading them so far, because if it were possible, I’m sure you would have done so already.

The true question is therefore: do you wish to find answers to your questions in Scripture, or do you perhaps only really wish to criticise Scripture?

My starting point is that I can't make sense of the claims, since they seem to contradict each other, particularly the idea that an omnipotent and benevolent God would choose to solve a problem by sending [his] son to be crucified, and doing so in a relatively obscure corner of the Roman Empire.

 

[blü 2]

I didn't say these things.

This is a conversation you are having with another RF member.

I don't know why they were attributed to me.

That can happen when I have so many to answer (or when my brain is feeling scrambled). My apologies.

 

[rational experiences]

The narrator story writer is a human.

A thinker questioner and answerer about a human life.

So before you compile a story you have a topic and a theme.

The theme changes caused in creation as told by a human.

O earth a self created entity self formed origin to itself the planet only.

Entity planet formed it's owned heavens. Creator theme.

Entity planet attacked by sun as hell body converted.

Science status. Conversion to change radiation effect.

Just science.

A planet never owned any son.

A human man adult exists first human status to have sex to gain a baby boy named a man son.

Theist storyteller used prostelyzed fake science planet quotes.

Were warned he did.

Scientist very healthy.

Invented conversion.

Cause effect change in radiation attacked sacrificed his baby boy son to adult man humans life.

Human.

Phenomena conjured effect water mass split off ground by two.

Natural evaporation.
Forced radiation evaporation.

Water loss allowed radiation evil.spirit sacrifice of blood flesh cell stigmata effect.

Statement tree wood is higher carbon body.

Looking back human to animal to trees to stone a theist. Human. Warning to self never look back. Reason two living parents plus baby right here right now. Any other pre life deceased.

Microbes in water carbon burnt. Life's cell energy in bio life. Our cell food.

Stigmata unnatural chemical leeches cell perfume. Blood not natural released. Brain prickling radiation effect.

Physical human ailments.

Totally ignored as advice.

Water loss carbon imprint image voice recordings gained in newly accrued cloud mass.

Human quotes angels in heavens protected my life. Already caused to life before in Moses attack.

Added new life attack image as Jesus a man by God O earth causes.

A human teaching against UFO radiation cause.

Released by O God the planet that attacked the only baby man life human man living on earth. Human.

Only man life is one human man life a teaching. Every man is only one man a human.

Relative ignored advice a human is a human as any human including the theist. Ego self you theory non existing life one human as humans and you are included in that advice.

Conscious advice.

Why so many male humans are still suffering in life today the sacrifice of life was saved to live as science caused the sin against man.life.

It arose again out of God mass and has since not stopped sacrificing life.

Science activated UFO effect.

 

[robocop (actually)]

And how would crucifying someone accomplish that?

Indeed, why would crucifying someone be the only way to accomplish that?

Because you can't come back to life if you don't die. Through it we can also come back to life.

 

[George-ananda]

One starts threads like this hoping (against hope) to gain some understanding; even if it's only to confirm your words above.

But what are your thoughts on the theory that Jesus was an advanced spiritual teacher for his time if not always understood properly by the authorities?

That seems like the more interesting question to ponder at this point.

 

[blü 2]

You are not clairvoyant, so you don't know what you would do, right?

No, wrong ─ I'm not clairvoyant, but I know what I'd do if I were.

You are not a Jesus, so you don't know what you would do, if you were at the spiritual level of Jesus

That seems more than fair.

Jesus is not the first Saint who just accepts that what has to happen

But the point of this thread is, WHY does it have to happen? WHY does a benevolent omnipotent God get to be remembered for torturing [his] son to death? I wouldn't hire anyone with that credential.

Once I knew there was going to happen a malaria outbreak where I was staying
I told nobody (people usually don't believe if I tell them such things anyway) I heard a voice telling me to leave the place and return to my country I did this immediately. A few days later malaria outbreak happened Many Westerners ended up in hospital ... should I've told them?

Why did you not simply tell them, "I have reason to believe there'll be a malaria outbreak here shortly. On first principles I think you'd be wise to be alert to such threats anyway" ?

NO. They would not have believed me, or they would have said "Sai Baba will take care of us"

That would have been their responsibility, not yours.

 

[blü 2]

Methinks there's been antisemitism long before Jesus. Two main reasons
1 - Jews insist on being different
2 - Jews are more successful

Yes, there was antisemitism BCE, but the institutionalizing of antisemitism is a Christian invention; you can seize the property, kill the children of, the people who "killed Christ" ─ and if you're low on gas, you can refuel your bile with selected passages from John.

Anointed as in 'anointed by God' - a spiritual anointing
Jesus was the spiritual 'Great High Priest'
the spiritual 'lamb of God'
the spiritual 'king of the Jews'
the spiritual 'temple of the living God'

But a messiah is supposed to be the savior and emancipator of the Jewish nation. Jesus was never that, nor in Jewish law any of the things you list above.

 

[blü 2]

For myself, I have to say that Jesus's death wasn't about anything at all -- because Jesus did not die. More, Jesus could not die. Oh, yes, he may have suffered some sort of NDE, but you cannot actually sacrifice that which has an ironclad guarantee of being brought back. John 3:16 is thus, in my personal view, rendered void, since God did not "give" his presumed son. When we give something, we do not retain for ourselves the means of ensuring we get it back. That's just a loan.

Once we bring magic into it, I guess there are no rules; but there still ought to be the concept of efficiency, and crucifying your own son as a sacrifice to yourself seems not only inefficient but pointless, if you're omnipotent, and self-blasphemy if you're benevolent.

 

[blü 2]

That’s true. But the original Gospel of Jesus was for all the world. The Jews rejected their calling to be the torch bearers of that Gospel.

No they didn't. They never had any credible evidence to suggest such a thing was on offer, and Jesus was never a messiah in Jewish terms.

 

[blü 2]

Question one: My opinion is that with God there is nothing that is necessary. Jesus was a gift. Gifts are never necessary.

Question two: Jesus is a wake-up call. Do you not believe that we should wake up?

Wake up to the need for decency, mutual respect, inclusion? Yes, sure, but you don't need a god to tell you that.

Question three: I think that God does not call him an intermediary. People do. Please know that I may be wrong.

No one comes to the Father but through me, says Jesus somewhere in John.

 

[PruePhillip]

Yes, there was antisemitism BCE, but the institutionalizing of antisemitism is a Christian invention; you can seize the property, kill the children of, the people who "killed Christ" ─ and if you're low on gas, you can refuel your bile with selected passages from John.
But a messiah is supposed to be the savior and emancipator of the Jewish nation. Jesus was never that, nor in Jewish law any of the things you list above.

I don't have figures on the unfortunate word 'antisemitism' for non-Christian societies.
Find it hard to believe but some say that Jews were driven out of over 100 countries.
There's hate of Jews even in Asia and India.
But this was foretold in the bible - hated, exiled, few in numbers, cursed and blessed.

I brought this up with a Jew yesterday on this forum:
Zechariah states the Jews will one day see their reigning Messiah - but will mourn
when they realize it's the lowly man upon the donkey, the one they pierced, who was
coming to them.
This Jew stated that Redeemer prophecies refer only to the Jewish nation (ie Isaiah 53)
so I asked him did he think this lowly man was really a resurrected nation of Israel, all
of them riding donkeys, coming to extend Israel's borders to the Euphrates and more.
He hasn't replied of yet.

 

[rational experiences]

What is God is the first question.

A human thinks.
Conscience.

Not theism. Con science is basic science natural advice. To think naturally.

Yet asks for science his machine thesis. About God.

God to the theist is his metal machine.

God the planet cold and fused. Stone.

Has other products in the planet all cold in fused mass.

Inside deeply is not fused O earth then supposedly a God metal ball.

Human man scientist says God to my life is machine plus reaction.

Reaction however does not exist anywhere.

I control and tell machine the reaction.

No matter what he theories no reaction exists.

He has to force mass cold to change by control machine.

God he says is the highest state sealed cold fused.

First thesis as just thesis. Radiation came from sun converted earth.

Notice first man science thought says radiation came from space.

Possessed today by that thesis when he was not using radiation that came from space for machine forced reaction. Science as a condition machine to control reaction only inside machine.

Equals answer conscience is natural first.

God O planet owned natural what he wanted.

Why he is man father. Man father baby son to man life sacrificed.

His owned one self human man reasoned.

A scientist another man the same one man can say the other one man is harmed. So glad it was not my life.

Yet how long was he previously going to live for?

Unknown.

Was he previously going to inherit sickness?

Unknown.

Two conditions life proved. Early age death inherited. Personal life sick any moment.

Ignored in egotistical human self motivation self destructive.

O earth theme radiation from out of space channelled bored a radiation path. Tunnel direct to core God metal machine.

Theme channel.
Theme God body likened to his machine.
Out of space radiation.

Pyramid used opened tunnel channel Radio waves from various mountain temples with water cooled pumping system.

Did not work as a control cooling method as pyramid blew up as radiation penetrated walls. Casement blasted off. UFO hit temple on mount. Mountains attacked by UFO fallout history of Moses.

Ask why Jews did not accept Jesus theme. Cloud amassing angel image humans already lost life in water by massive flooding that after saved life.

Jesus a new event added new cloud mass by evaporation. Reasoning was not factual origin relating saving of life was historic cloud amassing conditions.

Flooding in ice melt the newly born in science explanation saved life by cooling burning gases in heavens the teaching of life sacrificed.

Human science falsified information the Bible warning.

 

[PruePhillip]

Wake up to the need for decency, mutual respect, inclusion? Yes, sure, but you don't need a god to tell you that.
No one comes to the Father but through me, says Jesus somewhere in John.

In one sense there's no 'inclusion' in the Gospels. Sure, as Jesus pointed out, only
a Syrian general and a Lebanese woman were visited during a great famine in Israel.
But in another sense there's no place in the Kingdom of Heaven for the adulterer, the
thief, the murderer, the fornicator etc.. The 'wedding garment' parable refers to the need
of all to be dressed in Christ's righteousness.

 

[Marcion]

What was the death of Jesus about?

Jesus, according to the gospels, sets out, not on a suicide mission (meaning a very dangerous mission), but on a mission to die, a seeking of death, a literal suicide.

In Mark he puts it on the table right near the start:

Mark 2:20 The days will come, when the bridegroom is taken away from them, and then they will fast in that day.​

and at the end he doesn’t take the midnight special camel train out of Jerusalem to points east, but deliberately avoids every chance to escape:

Mark 14:33 And he took with him Peter and James and John, and began to be greatly distressed and troubled. 34 And he said to them, "My soul is very sorrowful, even to death; remain here, and watch." 35 And going a little farther, he fell on the ground and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him. 36 And he said, "Abba, Father, all things are possible to thee; remove this cup from me; yet not what I will, but what thou wilt."

Matthew 26:18 He said, "Go into the city to a certain one, and say to him, 'The Teacher says, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at your house with my disciples.'"

Matthew 26:29 “I tell you I shall not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom."

Matthew 26:38 Then he said to them, "My soul is very sorrowful, even to death; remain here, and watch with me." 39 And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, "My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt."

Luke 22:22 For the Son of man goes as it has been determined; but woe to that man by whom he is betrayed!"

Luke 22:42 "Father, if thou art willing, remove this cup from me; nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done."​

The tone in John is different, but the determination to die is still foremost:

John 17:4 I glorified thee on earth, having accomplished the work which thou gavest me to do; 5 and now, Father, glorify thou me in thy own presence with the glory which I had with thee before the world was made.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name, which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are one.

John 17:13 But now I am coming to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they may have my joy fulfilled in themselves.​

I've never understood what's supposed to be going on. I'd be grateful for coherent answers to three

The first question is:
WHY was it necessary for Jesus to die?

What could the death of Jesus achieve that an almighty God could not have achieved without bloodshed, just with one snap of those omnipotent fingers?

The second question is:
WHAT did Jesus’ death actually achieve? What, specifically, was different afterwards, that wasn’t so before?

The third question is:
Since God had made [his] covenant with the Jews, and was the God of the Jewish nation, and the only God, and had never needed an intermediary,
why would God suddenly need an intermediary in the first century CE?

Grateful for illumination.

This mythical rendering of the execution and supposed resurrection of Jesus was written into the story to create the idea of a cosmic sacrifice (by God) made for a "sinful mankind" who could then be saved by associating themselves with him.
This was copied from similar myths current at the time when it was created.

 

[stvdv]

But the point of this thread is, WHY does it have to happen? WHY does a benevolent omnipotent God get to be remembered for torturing [his] son to death? I wouldn't hire anyone with that credential.

1) God is not defined as Omni benevolent in Indian Scriptures
2) God is not to be remembered for torturing his son to death in Indian Scriptures

Both make no sense to me, hence I do not believe in such a God nor do I believe that 'God' actually said this.

But, as we have freedom of Religion, you are free to believe that this info is accurate of
course

But belief also implies it's belief instead of fact

 

[F1fan]

But what are your thoughts on the theory that Jesus was an advanced spiritual teacher for his time if not always understood properly by the authorities?

That seems like the more interesting question to ponder at this point.

Some speculate that Jesus learned Buddhism during the time in his life that isn't covered in Bible stories. That is plausible and would explain the unique perspective.

 

[blü 2]

I'm sorry - I thought I was answering your questions - not trying to convince you of anything.

Do you really want me to try and convince you of these things?

No, but thanks for your reply.