What was the Death of Jesus about?

[blü 2]

Because you can't come back to life if you don't die. Through it we can also come back to life.

But crucifixion as a method of dying, when you could just fall quietly asleep and then cease?

 

[blü 2]

But what are your thoughts on the theory that Jesus was an advanced spiritual teacher for his time if not always understood properly by the authorities?

That seems like the more interesting question to ponder at this point.

I think the historical approach is the way to such answers, but that's for another day.

 

[blü 2]

I don't have figures on the unfortunate word 'antisemitism' for non-Christian societies.
Find it hard to believe but some say that Jews were driven out of over 100 countries.
There's hate of Jews even in Asia and India.
But this was foretold in the bible - hated, exiled, few in numbers, cursed and blessed.

I brought this up with a Jew yesterday on this forum:
Zechariah states the Jews will one day see their reigning Messiah - but will mourn
when they realize it's the lowly man upon the donkey, the one they pierced, who was
coming to them.
This Jew stated that Redeemer prophecies refer only to the Jewish nation (ie Isaiah 53)
so I asked him did he think this lowly man was really a resurrected nation of Israel, all
of them riding donkeys, coming to extend Israel's borders to the Euphrates and more.
He hasn't replied of yet.

Good hunting, but how will that address the questions in the OP?

 

[blü 2]

In one sense there's no 'inclusion' in the Gospels. Sure, as Jesus pointed out, only
a Syrian general and a Lebanese woman were visited during a great famine in Israel.
But in another sense there's no place in the Kingdom of Heaven for the adulterer, the thief, the murderer, the fornicator etc.. The 'wedding garment' parable refers to the need of all to be dressed in Christ's righteousness.

When I run for God (GOTUS), my campaign slogan will be "Heal, not Hell".

 

[blü 2]

This mythical rendering of the execution and supposed resurrection of Jesus was written into the story to create the idea of a cosmic sacrifice (by God) made for a "sinful mankind" who could then be saved by associating themselves with him.
This was copied from similar myths current at the time when it was created.

Most interesting!

Which other myths, in particular?

 

[blü 2]

1) God is not defined as Omni benevolent in Indian Scriptures
2) God is not to be remembered for torturing his son to death in Indian Scriptures

Both make no sense to me, hence I do not believe in such a God nor do I believe that 'God' actually said this.

But, as we have freedom of Religion, you are free to believe that this info is accurate of course

But belief also implies it's belief instead of fact

Belief is not my problem in this context. I'm trying to make sense of the story (and not having much luck).

 

[stvdv]

Belief is not my problem in this context. I'm trying to make sense of the story (and not having much luck).

That makes sense to me, that you can't make sense of this story
I can't help you make sense of this story, because it does not make sense to me either

BUT unlike you, because the story does not make sense to me, I can't draw any conclusions about "God" from this story

 

[rational experiences]

Adults.
Humans.

Think and claim understanding for human babies then children to grow into adults.

Are humans.

A human is a human as a human being a human.

A human father.
A human mother.
A human baby son who becomes an adult father what he never was for himself.

Can never be his mother. His sister a baby also.

The only self recognised father and son life condition.

Man men males defined by being a human with a penis.

For a baby son of a father he is not a man you call him a baby he has a penis to be a man child. A boy.

The father and son ownership said by an adult human man.

If God O in science planet created its heavens then the God being earth gave birth to the evil spirit first born as self inheritance from its God body.

Notice O entity is earth a planet.
Notice an evil gas spirit is defined by a human scientist. The man.

Who knows he does not live as a human in a hot burning gas.

First spirit gas inheritance from the God form.

As God is in creation.

We are humans living inside of a preformed water heavens.

Exact use of correct science to earth notification advice. Inheritance status.

If humans claim in science I believe God is a particle then science as a man human claims God is a particle and not a fused planet.

Ever wonder why the themes God keep changing stories?

 

[PruePhillip]

Good hunting, but how will that address the questions in the OP?

What has Zechariah got to do with the death of Jesus?
Well he pointed out the Jewish Messiah is the same
one the Jews once killed.

 

[blü 2]

That makes sense to me, that you can't make sense of this story
I can't help you make sense of this story, because it does not make sense to me either

BUT unlike you, because the story does not make sense to me, I can't draw any conclusions about "God" from this story

There are very many views of God, but this is the one I'm looking at here.

 

[blü 2]

What has Zechariah got to do with the death of Jesus?
Well he pointed out the Jewish Messiah is the same
one the Jews once killed.

The Jews didn't kill Jesus ─ the story is clear that the Romans did that. (That the Jews killed Jesus is mainstream Christian antisemitism over two millennia but that doesn't make it true.)

 

[John1.12]

What was the death of Jesus about?

Jesus, according to the gospels, sets out, not on a suicide mission (meaning a very dangerous mission), but on a mission to die, a seeking of death, a literal suicide.

In Mark he puts it on the table right near the start:

Mark 2:20 The days will come, when the bridegroom is taken away from them, and then they will fast in that day.​

and at the end he doesn’t take the midnight special camel train out of Jerusalem to points east, but deliberately avoids every chance to escape:

Mark 14:33 And he took with him Peter and James and John, and began to be greatly distressed and troubled. 34 And he said to them, "My soul is very sorrowful, even to death; remain here, and watch." 35 And going a little farther, he fell on the ground and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him. 36 And he said, "Abba, Father, all things are possible to thee; remove this cup from me; yet not what I will, but what thou wilt."

Matthew 26:18 He said, "Go into the city to a certain one, and say to him, 'The Teacher says, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at your house with my disciples.'"

Matthew 26:29 “I tell you I shall not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom."

Matthew 26:38 Then he said to them, "My soul is very sorrowful, even to death; remain here, and watch with me." 39 And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, "My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt."

Luke 22:22 For the Son of man goes as it has been determined; but woe to that man by whom he is betrayed!"

Luke 22:42 "Father, if thou art willing, remove this cup from me; nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done."​

The tone in John is different, but the determination to die is still foremost:

John 17:4 I glorified thee on earth, having accomplished the work which thou gavest me to do; 5 and now, Father, glorify thou me in thy own presence with the glory which I had with thee before the world was made.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name, which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are one.

John 17:13 But now I am coming to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they may have my joy fulfilled in themselves.​

I've never understood what's supposed to be going on. I'd be grateful for coherent answers to three

The first question is:
WHY was it necessary for Jesus to die?

What could the death of Jesus achieve that an almighty God could not have achieved without bloodshed, just with one snap of those omnipotent fingers?

The second question is:
WHAT did Jesus’ death actually achieve? What, specifically, was different afterwards, that wasn’t so before?

The third question is:
Since God had made [his] covenant with the Jews, and was the God of the Jewish nation, and the only God, and had never needed an intermediary,
why would God suddenly need an intermediary in the first century CE?

Grateful for illumination.

I don't think it was necessary for Jesus to die.

I don't think it achieved anything.

Being an independent student of Jesus, my answer is that Jesus had to die because he was simply incarnated in a mortal flesh as mine. Isn't it obvious?!



Again, being an independent student of Jesus, the way by which Jesus was captured, judged and died on the cross has achieved many crucial goals (but none of them is about the magical 'Salvation by Faith' preached by formal Christian Churches and Denominations):

[1] It was crucial mainly for his Apostles and first Disciples who used being Jews. They needed to witness for sure that Jesus death does coincide with the Jewish prophecies they used hearing of.

[2] Without this clear death, on the cross and in front of all Jewish and Roman people in Jerusalem, his Apostles and first Disciples wouldn't be real impressed by seeing his living flesh again after it. Their main mission was to preach Jesus message that focuses on God's Unconditional Love. This message is clearly opposing the natural human instincts of survival in all times. But, despite their mission was impossible, Jesus miracle of reappearing to them again as a normal man after his sure death gave them all the necessary strength to achieve this impossible mission (thanks to them, I have on my hands Jesus teachings now) while facing very hard painful situations till their last breath.

[3] Jesus let the scenario of his death show the world very clearly that not only his flesh is dead on the cross but also his message as well. On that day, there was not even one person who dared saying "I believe what this man on the cross said". Jesus let even his Peter (his Rock) denied him clearly on that day; not once, not twice but 3 times (the golden number of confirming something with no doubt).

[4] It wasn't enough that people witnessed his death on the cross. He also let his Apostles and first Disciples hide themselves for 40 days; the universally known period in which a widow of an important dead husband is isolated to prove she has no life in her from him. Then, after this period of total silence (in which there was no sign at all that Jesus message could be alive), the Resurrection of Jesus Message happened (via the sacrifices of his Apostles and first Disciples) and it stayed alive till our days.

In other words, if Jesus died normally, none of above could happen.



Judaism was just a set of rules to help some chosen ancient human generations (Jews) be gathered in a well-organized and protected group (or nation, if you like). The main purpose of God's teachings addressed to these ancient Jews were simply to prepare them for the arrival of Jesus among them. Therefore, at the arrival of Jesus, the mission of Judaism was fulfilled.
By the way, Jesus presented John The Baptist as being the greatest Jewish prophets. And, as it is well known, the main mission of John The Baptist was preparing many Jews in this time for the recent arrival of Jesus among them. Jesus said:



There is no statement clearer than this saying to remind me that Jesus teachings that are addressing those who are spiritual (having also a living soul, besides their living mortal flesh) are the final and complete version of God's Word. But God (as revealed by Jesus, hence based solely on the Spirit of Love, not on any Law) has no reason to prevent his free humans to still be gathered in Jewish groups or in any other formal ones (religious and/or political) to the end of time.

Student of Jesus
Kerim

Acts 17
30And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

31Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

 

[John1.12]

There are very many views of God, but this is the one I'm looking at here.

Does it have to make ' sense ' to you to be true?
Being born into the world may not make sense . After all ,did you choose ? Some things happen, some things are true ,some things are inevitable. Sometimes we have to face the truth .

 

[John1.12]

But crucifixion as a method of dying, when you could just fall quietly asleep and then cease?

But that's not what happened?

 

[John1.12]

The Jews didn't kill Jesus ─ the story is clear that the Romans did that. (That the Jews killed Jesus is mainstream Christian antisemitism over two millennia but that doesn't make it true.)

Thats not what the bible says . And
If the Jews were happy with Jesus would he have been killed ?

 

[natasha levchenko]

The first question is:
WHY was it necessary for Jesus to die?

What could the death of Jesus achieve that an almighty God could not have achieved without bloodshed, just with one snap of those omnipotent fingers?

The second question is:
WHAT did Jesus’ death actually achieve? What, specifically, was different afterwards, that wasn’t so before?

The third question is:
Since God had made [his] covenant with the Jews, and was the God of the Jewish nation, and the only God, and had never needed an intermediary,
why would God suddenly need an intermediary in the first century CE?

What nice questions you have raised!
I’ll start from scratch))
The Jewish religious leaders didn’t understand that the animal sacrifices offered year after year by the high priests could not take away the sins of the people.
A perfect human sacrifice was necessary to meet the claims of Jehovah’s law against humanity. A perfect human life had to be sacrificed to buy back what was lost through Adam’s sin in Eden. Your question sounds reasonable ))I have thought about this many times.
Even the disciples could not understand why it was necessary for Jesus to die.

1 John 2:22
“And he is a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins, yet not for ours only but also for the whole world’s.” We need a ransom to release us from the penalty of death that we inherited from Adam.—Read Romans 5:12; 6:23.
What’s different?
Now Jesus is ruling as King in heaven, and his followers are announcing that good news worldwide.—Read Daniel 7:13, 14; Matthew 24:14.Soon, Jesus will use his power as King to bring an end to all suffering and to those who cause it. All who exercise faith in Jesus by obeying him will enjoy life in a paradise on earth.—Read Psalm 37:9-11.

 

[natasha levchenko]

https://www.jw.org/finder?srcid=jwlshare&wtlocale=E&lank=docid-502016853_1_VIDEO

 

[PruePhillip]

The Jews didn't kill Jesus ─ the story is clear that the Romans did that. (That the Jews killed Jesus is mainstream Christian antisemitism over two millennia but that doesn't make it true.)

That's disingenuous. It was a Roman crucifixion but that the Romans reserved
that mostly for politicals. But in Israel at the time, being in a Roman military
providence, the Jews had no right to apply the death penalty to anyone.
Certainly they could have stoned Jesus to death, or tossed him off a wall like
they did to his brother - but prophecy, going back to David's time, stated that
the Messiah would be 'pierced' and suffer a terrible death (think that's in Psalm
22 and 69.)

 

[KerimF]

Methinks there's been antisemitism long before Jesus. Two main reasons
1 - Jews insist on being different
2 - Jews are more successful

Anointed as in 'anointed by God' - a spiritual anointing
Jesus was the spiritual 'Great High Priest'
the spiritual 'lamb of God'
the spiritual 'king of the Jews'
the spiritual 'temple of the living God'
etc
In fact the New Testament was the spiritualization of the Old Testament.
This is why the Apostolic church had no temple, or altar, or high priest,
or holy days, or sacred symbols, of tablets of stone, or law etc.. These
things are in the Old Testament for symbolic purposes only.

Certainly this was not understood by the nascent Catholic Church.

Your focus on the spiritually of Jesus is totally right. But Jesus message is all about God's Love on earth as in Heaven; the unconditional love as in {Matthew 5:45}

"That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven (please note, Jesus didn't say your God): for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust."

I am afraid that 'Great High Priest' is an expression used in almost all man-made religions that are based on a certain god's law. And priests, high or not, are supposed to teach their god's law to their believers while supervising them as judges do.

Also 'lamb of God' is an expression inherited from ancient Paganism whose believers pleased their gods by sacrifices. Judaism teachings (much like the today's political constitutions) were about gathering certain human generations known as Jews (Israelis) in a well-organized formal group. Since the Jewish group was religious, giving sacrifices to God was also the norm. So I guess now, if someone couldn't get Jesus spirituality about Love, he, at best, doesn't mind seeing in Jesus (The Messiah) a sacrificed lamb to please God.

About 'king of the Jews', I am afraid there is no real king without being limited by a certain list of rules, a law. So, as in any well organized group, Jews had many leaders/kings though known as God's Prophets. Naturally, Jews imagined that at the arrival of their Messiah there will be a man like their great prophets though much more powerful to let them reign the world. Almost all of them, mainly their honorable Jewish Elders and Rulers, were disappointed, to a great extent, for hearing Jesus talking about Love instead and didn't mind seeing in him a dangerous deceiver threatening even the existence of Israel. In other word, 'king of the Jews' has nothing to do with Jesus spirituality.

Finally to be accurate, 'temple of the living God' may not reflect properly that Jesus came to reveal in person all natural truths about life and the world. Knowing these truths (the Light of knowledge) are needed only by those who perceive in them a spiritual living soul besides their living flesh. In other words, Jesus is the 'Living Word of God'.

I guess you meant by 'the New Testament was the spiritualization of the Old Testament' that Jesus teachings also reversed the Jewish ones (that reflect the human instincts of survival) which oppose God's Unconditional Love.

An independent student of Jesus (sorry, not a formal Christian)
Kerim

 

[PruePhillip]

The first question is:
WHY was it necessary for Jesus to die?

What could the death of Jesus achieve that an almighty God could not have achieved without bloodshed, just with one snap of those omnipotent fingers?

And just think, with a snap of His almighty finger God could have created people
who loved and served him. But He chose to give us FREE WILL, and a HUMAN
NATURE which we are expected to overcome. That is where God's sacrifice
comes into the picture.