What will Christians and Muslims have to say

[9-10ths_Penguin]

But the prophecies in scripture talk of God changing nature when he the messiah returns .. the lion will lie with the lamb, snakes won't harm children etc. God has promised to bring an end to the current order of things and to make all things new, I think this shows that the curent order of things is unsatisfactory to God and it is not as when he first created it when all things were good.

And how does this argument apply more to homosexuality than it does to anything else? Pick anything around you; it's part of "the current order of things" as well.

 

[Caladan]

OK call it what you will - genes, heredity, brain configurations - my point is that we are ALL born with inherent weaknesses, predispositions to certain diseases, etc. In fact, if the truth be known, the boundaries of human sexuality are probably endless - and many of those sexual tendencies could be considered counterproductive to a healthy lifestyle.

what is this healthy life style you are talking about?

You know what - I am genetically/hereditorily (whatever) predispositioned to be overweight. No matter what I do, I am always going to have to really watch my food choices and lifestyle if I want to remain fit. My mother is tall and willowy and can eat like a horse. I have to stick to under 1500 calories a day in order not to gain any weight.

This doesn't mean that I should just say "To heck with it," and eat 2000 calories a day and slowly creep up the scale. No, if I want to be healthy, I have to make sacrifices.

I by no means say that because our personal physiological traits we should abandon all hope to try and moderate health into our lives. but par the topic of the thread, I dont find a comparative substance between homosexuality and weight issues.

And as a Christian, I think it's my duty to keep my body healthy - even though I have to sacrifice my own "will."

I dont think one needs to be a Christian to apply this human agenda. and it is a human agenda thousands of years before the word 'Christian' was conceived.

 

[*Paul*]

And how does this argument apply more to homosexuality than it does to anything else? Pick anything around you; it's part of "the current order of things" as well.

I'm merely pointing out that what is called natural today is not necessarily in line with God's will since nature itself is affected by the fall. So for example pointing out animals which have homosexual relationships does not mean God made them that way but from a Christian point of view is simply more evidence of the fallen world we live in and the effect of sin on it.

 

[LuisDantas]

Actually, Paul, there is no evidence that God made anything at all in any way. That is a matter of faith at best.

On the other hand, there is a current state of things that should be considered in order to understand and solve actual, existing problems. Hence 9/10ths point.

 

[*Paul*]

Actually, Paul, there is no evidence that God made anything at all in any way. That is a matter of faith at best.

On the other hand, there is a current state of things that should be considered in order to understand and solve actual, existing problems. Hence 9/10ths point.

Even if that were true there is even less evidence to support a naturalistic theory as to how we came to be here with no intelligence pulling the strings.

And b.t.w the current state of things is considered by Christians and a solution is offered, the Gospel.

 

[linwood]

I'm merely pointing out that what is called natural today is not necessarily in line with God's will since nature itself is affected by the fall. So for example pointing out animals which have homosexual relationships does not mean God made them that way but from a Christian point of view is simply more evidence of the fallen world we live in and the effect of sin on it.

So Christians get to re-define what "natural" is.

You guys are grasping at straws now.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Secondly, we know that people are not born homosexual but rather it is an impact the society and environment has upon a person.

Did black people choose to be black? Especially when black people had less rights than a dog? Did you choose to be heterosexual? Did you choose to be attracted to whatever body type it is you are attracted to? Why is it a gay man will be gay, even though the ultra conservative family who raised him will only shun, condemn, and disown him?

So why is taking drugs illegal then?

Because people tend to hate others who are different.

As a lesbian transgender woman, I can assure you that neither my sexual identity or orientation was a "choice." I wish it was a choice, because then that would make life just that much easier, but living in denial of who you are on the basic genetic level can also make life very hard and frustrating.

 

[Kathryn]

Did black people choose to be black? Especially when black people had less rights than a dog? Did you choose to be heterosexual? Did you choose to be attracted to whatever body type it is you are attracted to? Why is it a gay man will be gay, even though the ultra conservative family who raised him will only shun, condemn, and disown him?

Let's just play a word game:

Did the serial rapist choose to be a serial rapist? Especially when convicted serial rapists have less rights than a dog? Did they choose to be attracted to whatever body type they are attracted to? Why is it that a serial rapist will be a rapist, even though the family who raised him will only shun, condemn, and disown him?

Now let's substitute another word:

Did the heroin addict choose to be a heroin addict? Especially when addicts have less rights than a dog? Did he choose to be attracted to whatever drug he is attracted to? Why is it that a heroin addict will be a heroin addict, even though the family who raised him will only shun, condemn, and disown him?

Substitute any behavior - and you will see that this argument for or against ANYTHING really doesn't hold water. As humans, we all have our battles to fight against self destructive behaviors and urges.

As a lesbian transgender woman, I can assure you that neither my sexual identity or orientation was a "choice." I wish it was a choice, because then that would make life just that much easier, but living in denial of who you are on the basic genetic level can also make life very hard and frustrating.

Let's use the same word game:

As a four hundred pound woman, I can assure you that neither my weight or my body type was a "choice." I wish it was a choice, because then that would make life just that much easier, but living in denial of who you are on the basic genetic level can also make life very hard and frustrating.

See what I mean? That "logic" can be used to explain away any behavior. Where do you draw the line between genetics, behavior, and right and wrong? Or do you believe that there is no right or wrong? Or are we all just at the mercy of biology?

I am not sure if you ever saw Ted Bundy's last interview. If you didn't - please google it and watch it. It is very sad. He's obviously disgusted with his own choices, but watching it you can tell that he was in the grips of urges that were extremely powerful. He was disturbed from very early childhood. Who should take responsibility for his actions? Could he help himself? Would it have been very difficult? Did he WANT to be that way?

 

[Kathryn]

By the way, I'm not a serial rapist, a heroin addict, or a four hundred pound woman - just for the record.

 

[Draka]

Kathryn, no matter how you want to spin it though, being a serial rapist, a herion addict and 400lbs are all harmful things(to themselves or others). Being homosexual is not. If someone feels compelled to do the harmful things you have mentioned then there is a mental condition that needs to be addressed. However, homosexuality is the same as heterosexuality. It is simply who you feel more connected to on both an emotional and physical level. There is no difference whatsoever between a homosexual and a heterosexual except who they love. To compare homosexuality to any of the things you have is entirely sick and wrong and perverted.

 

[Kathryn]

Kathryn, no matter how you want to spin it though, being a serial rapist, a herion addict and 400lbs are all harmful things(to themselves or others). Being homosexual is not. If someone feels compelled to do the harmful things you have mentioned then there is a mental condition that needs to be addressed. However, homosexuality is the same as heterosexuality. It is simply who you feel more connected to on both an emotional and physical level. There is no difference whatsoever between a homosexual and a heterosexual except who they love. To compare homosexuality to any of the things you have is entirely sick and wrong and perverted.

I was comparing the "logic" of the argument that we're totally at the mercy of our gene pool. Please read my post carefully.

The concept that we cannot control our actions because we're genetically predisposed to certain urges is not a sound argument in my opinion.

As a woman, when I have PMS, what sorts of behaviors am I NOT responsible for? Should I get a free pass if I yell hateful things to my husband? Should I get a free pass if I slap my child across the face? I would think not. I may have those genetic and hormonal urges, but I still am responsible for controlling my own actions.

That's my point. Where do you draw the line? And who's to say that our emotional choices of a mate do or don't hurt others? I would argue emphatically that sometimes who we choose to love DOES most DEFINITELY hurt others.

 

[Draka]

I was comparing the "logic" of the argument that we're totally at the mercy of our gene pool. Please read my post carefully.

The concept that we cannot control our actions because we're genetically predisposed to certain urges is not a sound argument in my opinion.

As a woman, when I have PMS, what sorts of behaviors am I NOT responsible for? Should I get a free pass if I yell hateful things to my husband? Should I get a free pass if I slap my child across the face? I would think not. I may have those genetic and hormonal urges, but I still am responsible for controlling my own actions.

However, even if that is so, it has absolutely NOTHING to do with homosexuality.

That's my point. Where do you draw the line? And who's to say that our emotional choices of a mate do or don't hurt others? I would argue emphatically that sometimes who we choose to love DOES most DEFINITELY hurt others.

That may be, but that has to do with particular people, not what gender they may be. and considering there is more domestic abuse in heterosexual couples than homosexual couples I would contend that harmful partners are more a worry of heterosexuals than homosexuals.

 

[linwood]

I was comparing the "logic" of the argument that we're totally at the mercy of our gene pool. Please read my post carefully.

The concept that we cannot control our actions because we're genetically predisposed to certain urges is not a sound argument in my opinion.

That's my point. Where do you draw the line? And who's to say that our emotional choices of a mate do or don't hurt others? I would argue emphatically that sometimes who we choose to love DOES most DEFINITELY hurt others.

Yes, and my choice of a wife hurt others as well.
I suppose we should then ban hetero marriages.

 

[Kathryn]

Yes, and my choice of a wife hurt others as well.
I suppose we should then ban hetero marriages.

I suppose that we should take the high road. As a Christian, I think the advice "Do unto others as you should have them do unto you," and "Treat your neighbor as yourself," would save a lot of us a lot of hurt. From what I understand, a lot of religions teach those same principles.

By your moral code, I guess you did what you thought was "right" by marrying your wife. I know absolutely nothing about your situation so I have no opinion on it.

It would be nice to think that everyone does what they do because they believe they're doing the right thing. It would be nice to believe that people think of the others in their lives as well as just their own life when they make momentous decisions. Unfortunately that's not always the case. If I hear that pablum, "Follow your heart," one more time, I think I'll be sick. The "heart" is fickle, and emotions are transitory. Doing the right thing isn't an emotional decision - it's a logical one that sometimes goes against our emotions.

That ability to reason and make sound decisions comes from a moral code. I believe that when we stray away from that code, we lose our bearing and hurt ourselves and others along the way.

Hopefully when you made your decision to marry your wife, you applied a moral code and determined that regardless of how others felt, there was nothing morally wrong with marrying her so you did so. But many people apply THIS train of thought:

"I don't care what anyone says - I love her! So what if she's married - I love her! So what if she's an addict - I love her! So what if she's not the same religion - I love her! Love conquers everything! Love will pull us through! With love we can do anything!" This is strictly emotion - not reason.

Sometimes other people are hurt by our decisions on who we "love" because they can see the writing on the wall and are heartbroken in advance for US - not for themselves.

There's a lot more to life than damage control.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

As a four hundred pound woman, I can assure you that neither my weight or my body type was a "choice." I wish it was a choice, because then that would make life just that much easier, but living in denial of who you are on the basic genetic level can also make life very hard and frustrating.

See what I mean? That "logic" can be used to explain away any behavior. Where do you draw the line between genetics, behavior, and right and wrong? Or do you believe that there is no right or wrong? Or are we all just at the mercy of biology?

What is so different is that being a rapist or gay, is that being a rapist harms others. Being gay harms no one. While being 400 pounds, some people can help it, while a few can't. But, it doesn't come down to being at the mercy of your genetic makeup, it comes down to what part of your genes will harm others, and which ones won't.