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What will Christians and Muslims have to say

DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
I believe that all are born with a sin nature inherant in whatever motivates behaviour, some develop an inclination towards covetesness and become theives, others have violent streaks and become thugs and some become homosexuals.

I do not believe you are born a "thief"..or "born" with a "coveting gene"..2nd of all thievery is a violation against another person..coveting is self inflicted torture rooted in jealousy...and I believe taught by example(in most cases)

Homesexuality on the other hand is a natural born state of being.It is a violation against no person..and the only torture involved is people like you comapring them to thieves and people who covet. And that they can be "healed" of their sin. (which by comparison is quite nice compared to some of the other comparisons I've heard).

Love

Dallas
 

DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
I read about some dodgy creep who was having intercourse with a goat and got arrested, however his conviction could be quashed a future date. The goat didn't complain and why should this man not be allowed to live a gratifying life since he couldn't help his overwhelming attraction to this nanny, maybe if the goat doesn't object they could get married too. Necrophiliacs too, the corspe is not really a vicitim and feels no hurt or pain maybe we should just let them get on with it too providing their are no living relatives to object.

Oh my God..boy am I fatigued..I thought your comaprisons were nice.I was skimming apparently.

There is something wrong with you.(sorry)..

To compare a human and a non human having sex together. Or someone havign sex with a dead body?How does that relate to two(alive) humans having consensual sex together?

I need to go back to bed.

Love

Dallas
 
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*Paul*

Jesus loves you
I do not believe you are born a "thief"..or "born" with a "coveting gene"..2nd of all thievery is a violation against another person..coveting is self inflicted torture rooted in jealousy...and I believe taught by example(in most cases)
I said they are born with a sin nature, some people show an inclination towards a certain type of sin from an early age, I do not blame the genes but the nature itself that is why I suggested a new heart as the remedy not a gene transplant.

Homesexuality on the other hand is a natural born state of being.It is a violation against no person..and the only torture involved is people like you comapring them to thieves and people who covet. And that they can be "healed" of their sin. (which by comparison is quite nice compared to some of the other comparisons I've heard).

Well Dallas do you think that nature today is as God intended it?
 

*Paul*

Jesus loves you
Oh my God..boy am I fatigued..I thought your comaprisons were nice.I was skimming apparently.

There is something wrong with you.(sorry)..

To compare a human and a non human having sex together. Or someone havign sex with a dead body?How does that relate to two(alive) humans having consensual sex together?

I need to go back to bed.

Love

Dallas

I was not comapring the actions but the principle put forth. If a gene is found that determines what you are sexually attracted to then you are no more responsible for being attracted to the same sex as you would be a beetle. I am not saying homosexuals are like necrophiliacs or beast lovers.

I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you are not deliberatly trying to turn my post around to make me look as though I am saying that they are comparable, it was not my point and you know it. I hope your sleep has cleared you mind a little.
 

darkendless

Guardian of Asgaard
I said they are born with a sin nature, some people show an inclination towards a certain type of sin from an early age, I do not blame the genes but the nature itself that is why I suggested a new heart as the remedy not a gene transplant.



Well Dallas do you think that nature today is as God intended it?

Perhaps you need some kind of tolerance transplant because as far as im aware homosexuality is older than christianity. Its only wrong because ancient superstitious myths have a problem with it, hardly justification for you to be intolerant of these people. Find a real problem with them and maybe people will take you seriously, God doesnt cut it anymore.
 

Sahar

Well-Known Member
Why? Precisely because dogma is incapable of recognizing the subtleties and new challenges and circunstances of real life, while human society, for all its faults and shortcomings, at the very least attempts to.
Speaking about Islam, indeed Islam is very capable of recognizing, dealing and interacting with the continuous new challenges and changing circumstances.
But I wonder what are the new circumstances that took place regarding this specific issue; homosexuality? Why should the Islamic stance on this issue change?
 

darkendless

Guardian of Asgaard
Speaking about Islam, indeed Islam is very capable of recognizing, dealing and interacting with the continuous new challenges and changing circumstances.
But I wonder what are the new circumstances that took place regarding this specific issue; homosexuality? Why should the Islamic stance on this issue change?

Homosexuality won't go away because the current stance is unpopular within Islam. Islam needs to adapt or be left behind. If they don't well, i don't know if you've seen the situation in America, it hasn't been pretty.
 

Sahar

Well-Known Member
Homosexuality won't go away because the current stance is unpopular within Islam. Islam needs to adapt or be left behind. If they don't well, i don't know if you've seen the situation in America, it hasn't been pretty.
The current stance is the same stance 1400 years ago and the current homosexuality is the same 1400 years ago, what's new?
Islam needs to adapt to what? "Left behind" this would be correct if its followers were going to vanish.

What's the American situation exactly?
 

darkendless

Guardian of Asgaard
The current stance is the same stance 1400 years ago and the current homosexuality is the same 1400 years ago, what's new?
Islam needs to adapt to what? "Left behind" this would be correct if its followers were going to vanish.

What's the American situation exactly?

Exactly, we've changed a lot in 1400 years. We don't live in the dark ages where homosexuality is uniformly frowned upon. We're in an age where homosexuality is beginning to be accepted. Sure it hasn't changed but homosexuals themselves have. They're no longer afraid of being themselves and nor should they be.
Left behind culturally i mean. I have no problem with Islam but i do have a problem with intolerance based on religion (any religion). Then again the world is somewhat used to Islam the way it is.
As long as muslims who live in countries where homosexuality is not frowned upon cause no trouble i guess it doesn't matter. In my country they're rarely heard of. Its Christianity that seems to have a problem with everything here. Muslim countries on the other hand, well i think old habits die hard, even if the stance was changed it would take generations to catch on.
 

Sahar

Well-Known Member
Exactly, we've changed a lot in 1400 years. We don't live in the dark ages where homosexuality is uniformly frowned upon. We're in an age where homosexuality is beginning to be accepted. Sure it hasn't changed but homosexuals themselves have. They're no longer afraid of being themselves and nor should they be.
Left behind culturally i mean. I have no problem with Islam but i do have a problem with intolerance based on religion (any religion). Then again the world is somewhat used to Islam the way it is.
As long as muslims who live in countries where homosexuality is not frowned upon cause no trouble i guess it doesn't matter. In my country they're rarely heard of. Its Christianity that seems to have a problem with everything here. Muslim countries on the other hand, well i think old habits die hard, even if the stance was changed it would take generations to catch on.
Socially and politically the stance on homosexuality started to change in some parts of the world and this is what you just described, but I am asking why should Islam change its stance on this issue? Homosexuality is homosexuality 2000 years ago,1400 years ago and now, what's new to Islam to change its stance?
 

darkendless

Guardian of Asgaard
Socially and politically the stance on homosexuality started to change in some parts of the world and this is what you just described, but I am asking why should Islam change its stance on this issue? Homosexuality is homosexuality 2000 years ago,1400 years ago and now, what's new to Islam to change its stance?

Nothing if you're still applying the same thinking as 1400 years ago? Then again, we don't live as we do 1400 years ago. We don't have the threat of a sword in the chest for confessing to homosexuality. We also now question religion. What reason other than "against the will of Allah" is there to deny homosexuality?
 

Sahar

Well-Known Member
Nothing if you're still applying the same thinking as 1400 years ago? Then again, we don't live as we do 1400 years ago. We don't have the threat of a sword in the chest for confessing to homosexuality. We also now question religion. What reason other than "against the will of Allah" is there to deny homosexuality?
You are not answering the question.
Why should the thinking (the Islamic) on this issue - here were are talking about very specific issue if you have noticed - change?

I myself see no reason for Islam to change its stance as nothing changed (except, of course, the stance of people from other different societies with different ideologies and values than the Islamic ones).
 
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darkendless

Guardian of Asgaard
You are not answering the question.
Why should the thinking (the Islamic) on this issue - here were are talking about very specific issue if you have noticed - change?

I myself see no reason for Islam to change its stance as nothing changed except, of course, the stance of people from other different societies with different ideologies and values than the Islamic ones.

Of course you wouldn't.

My personal reason is because its intolerance at its best. Islam won't change because there is no call from within to change. That doesn't mean muslims aren't gay, it means they're afraid to come out because they fear the consequences.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
There are reasons outside of simply "fear of God" that many religions are opposed to homosexuality. Now - you can debate this all you like and it's not my purpose to DEBATE each point, but here are some of the reasons:

1. It is a lifestyle that does not produce children (and children are necessary for the continuance and upkeep of a family/tribe/civilization). Most religions teach that children are a blessing. This is a generalization - please don't point out that gay couples can have a child by in vitro fertilization or (if they could bring themselves to do it) even sex with teh opposite sex, or adoption. Those are exceptions to the general rule that homosexual or lesbian sex doesn't produce children.

By the way, a low birth rate is very unhealthy for a society. Give the US another 20 years and you're about to see some serious ramifications economically and socially due to our low birth rate. But that's a topic for another thread.

2. Marriage is a sacred union of a man and woman before God - as much a religious act of faith as it is a human union. You may not believe this but this is a deep belief in many religions that you can't discredit simply because you don't agree with it.

3. Marriage is the very fiber that most communities have been built upon. Traditionally, marriage and children and grandchildren are the ties that unite families and tribes and regions. These marriages have literally helped build countries and economic systems that communities of people thrive in.

4. More recently - AIDS hasn't helped the case of gay or promiscuous (I know - not necessarily the same thing) people - or intravenous drug users either for that matter.

Like I said, we could argue each of the above points till we are all blue in the face, but someone had asked "What other reason than fear of God/Allah could people have against homosexuality?" so there are some of the reasons.
 

Draka

Wonder Woman
There are reasons outside of simply "fear of God" that many religions are opposed to homosexuality. Now - you can debate this all you like and it's not my purpose to DEBATE each point, but here are some of the reasons:

1. It is a lifestyle that does not produce children (and children are necessary for the continuance and upkeep of a family/tribe/civilization). Most religions teach that children are a blessing. This is a generalization - please don't point out that gay couples can have a child by in vitro fertilization or (if they could bring themselves to do it) even sex with teh opposite sex, or adoption. Those are exceptions to the general rule that homosexual or lesbian sex doesn't produce children.
Then why aren't sterile people or people who simply don't want to have children not shunned and looked down upon? Not to mention the fact that we have an overpopulation problem in the world. It's not like reproducing is a must to "propogate the species" any more. In fact, over-reproducing could do more damage and actually cause our downfall rather than any good. In that regard...not having children does the human species a favor.

By the way, a low birth rate is very unhealthy for a society. Give the US another 20 years and you're about to see some serious ramifications economically and socially due to our low birth rate. But that's a topic for another thread.
Totally untrue. If you really think you have anything to back up this absurd claim then do go ahead and start another thread.

2. Marriage is a sacred union of a man and woman before God - as much a religious act of faith as it is a human union. You may not believe this but this is a deep belief in many religions that you can't discredit simply because you don't agree with it.
I can discredit it if those very same religions tolerate or accept divorce of any kind. If marriage is such a sacred union then those religions should be rallying against divorce. If it is a sacred act before god then they should rally against atheists getting married because it would be a very affront to the meaning of marriage. They should rally against any people of any religion that disagrees because they blemish marriage by their heresy. I can certainly discredit it if it is hypocritical BS.

3. Marriage is the very fiber that most communities have been built upon. Traditionally, marriage and children and grandchildren are the ties that unite families and tribes and regions. These marriages have literally helped build countries and economic systems that communities of people thrive in.
And, exactly, what is the point of this statement considering that homosexuals have marriages and families and children and ties to communties and economic systems? Homosexuals can get married in many countries in the world and their societies haven't crumbled. Homosexuals can get married in a few states in the US (though it shouldn't be a few...it should be ALL) and as of yet not one of those states has had their communites and neighborhood lay in shambles. Your point is lost to reality.

4. More recently - AIDS hasn't helped the case of gay or promiscuous (I know - not necessarily the same thing) people - or intravenous drug users either for that matter.
Not just homosexuals, drug users, and sluts get AIDS you know. Nor does being any of those things sign you up to definitely get AIDS either. And to present the disease as such shows great ignorance on the subject.

Like I said, we could argue each of the above points till we are all blue in the face, but someone had asked "What other reason than fear of God/Allah could people have against homosexuality?" so there are some of the reasons.
And as I have pointed out, each one of those arguments is null and void. They don't exist. They are manufactured excuses and illusions to be able to maintain blatant discrimination. They are trumped up to try to make people feel better about their intolerance and ignorance of the subject matter. They are not reasons, they are false justifications for how they truly feel. Honestly, arguing for them would be foolish, for they are fiction, and there's no use trying to argue on the side of fiction.
 

*Paul*

Jesus loves you
And yes I think that is as God intended it.
Dallas

But the prophecies in scripture talk of God changing nature when he the messiah returns .. the lion will lie with the lamb, snakes won't harm children etc. God has promised to bring an end to the current order of things and to make all things new, I think this shows that the curent order of things is unsatisfactory to God and it is not as when he first created it when all things were good.
 

linwood

Well-Known Member
So why is taking drugs illegal then?

Because the government is run by fools.

I mean taking drugs does not violate another's right, does it?
Not to my knowledge.
I`m sure it could happen in certain circumstances.

Something made legal and illegal by man-made law does not neccesserily mean your are violating someone's right. The fact that drugs are illegal is because of the large negative impact it has on health.
Why are cigarettes legal?
Why is alchohol legal?
Why are automobiles legal?
Why are prescription drugs legal?
All the things mentioned above have a more negative affect on health than illegal drugs

Man-made laws keep changing because they have weaknesses in them.
No,
They generally change because we humans more rational and educated.
Granted, it`s a damn slow process but it`s happening.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
There are reasons outside of simply "fear of God" that many religions are opposed to homosexuality. Now - you can debate this all you like and it's not my purpose to DEBATE each point, but here are some of the reasons:

1. It is a lifestyle that does not produce children (and children are necessary for the continuance and upkeep of a family/tribe/civilization). Most religions teach that children are a blessing. This is a generalization - please don't point out that gay couples can have a child by in vitro fertilization or (if they could bring themselves to do it) even sex with teh opposite sex, or adoption. Those are exceptions to the general rule that homosexual or lesbian sex doesn't produce children.
Celibacy is also a lifestyle that does not produce children, yet most religions are okay with it. Some even consider it to be virtuous or demand it of their clergy.

2. Marriage is a sacred union of a man and woman before God - as much a religious act of faith as it is a human union. You may not believe this but this is a deep belief in many religions that you can't discredit simply because you don't agree with it.
You're begging the question. There's nothing inherent in a same-sex union that makes it less sacred than an opposite-sex union... nothing besides religious teaching, that is, but you presented this as a reason separate to religious teaching.

3. Marriage is the very fiber that most communities have been built upon. Traditionally, marriage and children and grandchildren are the ties that unite families and tribes and regions. These marriages have literally helped build countries and economic systems that communities of people thrive in.
This point implies a false choice. It's not a matter of choosing between gay married couples and straight married couples. Whatever happens, homosexual people will be homosexual. The choice you have is whether those homosexual couples should be married or unmarried.

I don't think it makes a whole lot of sense to say that because marriage is the fibre of our communities, our gay couples should be unmarried.

4. More recently - AIDS hasn't helped the case of gay or promiscuous (I know - not necessarily the same thing) people - or intravenous drug users either for that matter.
The vast majority of people with AIDS are heterosexual.

Like I said, we could argue each of the above points till we are all blue in the face, but someone had asked "What other reason than fear of God/Allah could people have against homosexuality?" so there are some of the reasons.
Yes, we could argue them, seeing how they're generally not well-founded.
 
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