What will Christians and Muslims have to say

[ProudMuslim]

Well I for one am certainly glad that has been written out of history! It sure didn't look good for the founders of the "one god" religions for awhile. Lut is righteous, okay....

Mestemia is there room on that boat???

It is not called written out of history because the story still exists in the Holy Bible. In Islam we believe Apostles/Prophets/Messengers did not commit any (intentional) unlawful doing. We held the same view for more than 1400 years ago, so it is not a new thing that 'Lut' didn't father his own daugters kids or offered them to be raped....

 

[Draka]

Well i was about to say i disagree with you, but then the word "dogma" is tricky since it can refer to any religious dogma. I will speak about Islam, so far science didn't disprove any particular belief if anything it approved many revelations. Until it does we can talk about that.

And right here in this thread we are debating about hypothetical situation, not a factual situation.

And here I recall a muslim on this very site saying that muslims don't believe in evolution. Is Islam accepting of evolution? That is science. If Islam is not accepting of evolution as fact then how could one hope that they would accept the fact that homosexuality is an inborn quality?

 

[linwood]

Secondly, we know that people are not born homosexual but rather it is an impact the society and environment has upon a person.

We know no such thing.
In fact there is a large amount of evidence to the contrary.
I myself am not a supporter of "genetic homosexuality" as a defense for the homosexual community as I don`t believe it`s relevant anyway.

In other words, the rationale behind twin studies of homosexuality is that if there is a difference between the concordance rate for homosexuality in monozygotic twins and dizygotic twins, then this is strong evidence that there is some genetic component to the aetiology of homosexuality. However, if the concordance rate in monozygotic twins is not 100%, then environmental factors must be exerting some influence.
Twin studies of homsexuality

Common sense will tell you that if someone hangs around with certain type of people then they are likely to become similar to those people, or at least adapt certain characteristics of those group of people.

Common sense also told bronze age people thet the Earth was flat and the sun moved around it.
Common sense is overrated.

If scientists find a gene for rape and prove to the world that there are some babies who are genetically born to become rapists. If those babies then grew up, became adults and then raped someone, would you then say that's fine, don't punish them since they had the genes anyway?

Apples and oranges.
Rapists cause harm to individuals and society.
Homosexuals only cause harm to outdated intolerant world views.

Edit:
I didn`t realize this thread was so old.

 

[McBell]

Well I for one am certainly glad that has been written out of history! It sure didn't look good for the founders of the "one god" religions for awhile. Lut is righteous, okay....

Mestemia is there room on that boat???

Sure.
We will stop and get a pontoon.
That way there is room for several more.

Well i was about to say i disagree with you, but then the word "dogma" is tricky since it can refer to any religious dogma. I will speak about Islam, so far science didn't disprove any particular belief if anything it approved many revelations. Until it does we can talk about that.

And right here in this thread we are debating about hypothetical situation, not a factual situation.

I see.
So you choose to ignore posts like #203?

Thank you for furthering my point.

 

[challupa]

It is not called written out of history because the story still exists in the Holy Bible. In Islam we believe Apostles/Prophets/Messengers did not commit any (intentional) unlawful doing. We held the same view for more than 1400 years ago, so it is not a new thing that 'Lut' didn't father his own daugters kids or offered them to be raped....

Well now, that's just confusing. Whose version is the right one?

 

[challupa]

Sure.
We will stop and get a pontoon.
That way there is room for several more.

All aboard!!!!

 

[McBell]

Well now, that's just confusing. Whose version is the right one?

Everyone chooses their own version as the "right" one.

 

[challupa]

Everyone chooses their own version as the "right" one.

Well it sure does make it tons more difficult for anyone trying to figure it all out, that's all I have to say about that!:yes: You would think that the 2 religions that are offspring of the parent would at least agree about things.

 

[Kathryn]

(sigh) There's a gene for everything it seems. There's a gene that predisposes people to alcoholism, to obesity, to tobacco addiction...at what point are we to start taking responsibility for our choices? Do we really even HAVE any choices? Or are we just bullied by our gene pool into various lifestyles?

 

[Caladan]

(sigh) There's a gene for everything it seems. There's a gene that predisposes people to alcoholism, to obesity, to tobacco addiction...at what point are we to start taking responsibility for our choices? Do we really even HAVE any choices? Or are we just bullied by our gene pool into various lifestyles?

Actually this is a very common misconception, which sadly is even being popularized in our most respected medias to the common readers.
In genetics, there is no gene for anything. phenotypes or traits may be caused by known genes, but there is no gene for obesity, no gene for cancer, no gene for any addiction.
and to the second part of your post, I have to say that many see a brutal truth that genes are the dictators of our lives, for example in the most basic physical example, a person who pursues a healthy life may put themselves on a very harsh health diet for life, but the truth is that their choice of nutrition will never have the same weight of effect over their health as their genetics.

 

[Draka]

(sigh) There's a gene for everything it seems. There's a gene that predisposes people to alcoholism, to obesity, to tobacco addiction...at what point are we to start taking responsibility for our choices? Do we really even HAVE any choices? Or are we just bullied by our gene pool into various lifestyles?

I certainly hope you aren't claiming homosexuality is a choice.



Also, I am wondering if what I posted earlier was just ignored by the vast majority of people here. I do recall someone else mentioning about the brains of heterosexual females and the brains of homosexual males being similar. Instead of concentrating on whether or not there is some gene, which I personally think is kind of unlikely as that would lean more towards homosexuality being more disposed to being hereditary (even though there are genetic abnormalities), why not look at brain function?

I have already explained before how the mechanics of one becoming left-handed could, in fact, be the very same mechanics to being born homosexual. Our emotions, our sexual attraction, it is all in the brain. So wouldn't it make sense to assume that our sexual orientation is probably coming from there as well? If I'm correct, and determination of sexual orientation, as well as gender identity, has to do with brain formation rates in the womb as a fetus, then homosexuality is just as natural and common an occurance as being born left-handed. No one questions the "normality" of a left-handed person, so why question the "normality" of a homosexual person if the biological mechanics of how they both came to be are essentially the same?

 

[Imagist]

I certainly hope you aren't claiming homosexuality is a choice.



Also, I am wondering if what I posted earlier was just ignored by the vast majority of people here. I do recall someone else mentioning about the brains of heterosexual females and the brains of homosexual males being similar. Instead of concentrating on whether or not there is some gene, which I personally think is kind of unlikely as that would lean more towards homosexuality being more disposed to being hereditary (even though there are genetic abnormalities), why not look at brain function?

I have already explained before how the mechanics of one becoming left-handed could, in fact, be the very same mechanics to being born homosexual. Our emotions, our sexual attraction, it is all in the brain. So wouldn't it make sense to assume that our sexual orientation is probably coming from there as well? If I'm correct, and determination of sexual orientation, as well as gender identity, has to do with brain formation rates in the womb as a fetus, then homosexuality is just as natural and common an occurance as being born left-handed. No one questions the "normality" of a left-handed person, so why question the "normality" of a homosexual person if the biological mechanics of how they both came to be are essentially the same?

While I understand that casting homosexuality as "normal" makes it more palatable to some people, I think the "normality" of homosexuality is irrelevant. The only question of relevance is whether homosexuality is wrong. It isn't wrong according to any reasonable set of ethics, so who cares if it's normal?

Occasionally I like to mix pasta (with tomato sauce) and peanut butter and make a sandwich from it. I would venture that this behavior is decidedly NOT normal. But it is also not something we should amend the state constitution to ban.

I say this because I think the argument over homosexuality could use some refocusing. People need to realize that we all do things others would consider weird, and that doesn't make those things wrong.

 

[ProudMuslim]

And here I recall a muslim on this very site saying that muslims don't believe in evolution. Is Islam accepting of evolution? That is science. If Islam is not accepting of evolution as fact then how could one hope that they would accept the fact that homosexuality is an inborn quality?

Evolution is a theory with many gaps and shortcoming, not a fact. Can evolution explain how life started? No.

But some ideas from evolution is accepted within Islam. Here is an informative excerpt from Wikipedia on Islam's view on evolution:

Islamic creationism is the belief that the universe (including humanity) was directly created by God as explained in the Qur'an. While contemporary Islam tends to take religious texts literally, it usually views Genesis as a corrupted version of God's message. The creation accounts in the Qur'an are more vague and allow for a wider range of interpretations similar to those in other Abrahamic religions. Several liberal movements within Islam generally accept the scientific positions on the age of the earth, the age of the universe and evolution.
Islam also has its own school of Evolutionary creationism/Theistic evolutionism, which holds that mainstream scientific analysis of the origin of the universe is supported by the Qur'an. Many Muslims believe in evolutionary creationism, especially among Liberal movements within Islam.
Khalid Anees, president of the Islamic Society of Britain, at a conference called 'Creationism: Science and Faith in Schools', made points including the following:[64] There is no contradiction between what is revealed in the Koran and natural selection and survival of the fittest. However, some Muslims do not agree that one species can develop from another.
But there is also a growing movement of Islamic creationism. Similar to Christian creationism, there is concern regarding the perceived conflicts between the Qur'an and the main points of evolutionary theory.
There are several verses in the Qur'an which some modern writers have interpreted as being compatible with the expansion of the universe, Big Bang and Big Crunch theories:[65][66][67]

"Do not the Unbelievers see that the skies (space) and the earth were joined together, then We clove them asunder and We created every living thing out of the water. Will they not then believe?"[Qur'an 21:30]
​

"Then turned He to the sky (space) when it was smoke, and said unto it and unto the earth: Come both of you, willingly or loth. They said: We come, obedient."[Qur'an 41:11]
​

"And it is We Who have constructed the sky (space) with might, and it is We Who are steadily expanding it."[Qur'an 51:47]
​

"On the day when We will roll up the sky (space) like the rolling up of the scroll for writings, as We originated the first creation, (so) We shall reproduce it; a promise (binding on Us); surely We will bring it about."[Qur'an 21:104]​

​

 

[ProudMuslim]

I see.
So you choose to ignore posts like #203?

Thank you for furthering my point.

Have you read post 203? There is no consensus among the scientists that link homosexuality with genetics. There are some studies prove one thing, and others that deny it.

Therefore your point is baseless, and my previous statement stand still.

 

[darkendless]

Evolution is a theory with many gaps and shortcoming, not a fact. Can evolution explain how life started? No.

But some ideas from evolution is accepted within Islam. Here is an informative excerpt from Wikipedia on Islam's view on evolution:


[/indent]

This is not meant to attack your religion, but even if there was comprehensive evidence to prove evolution, would you believe it over the word of Mohammed?

Then again, evolution is a fact, its just like gravity, everyone loves to poke holes in explanations for both, but no one ever comes up with anything more substantial.

 

[Kathryn]

Okay let's take that story. In your definition, homosexuality is not okay, but the giving up of one's daughter's to be raped by the crowd is okay? Because that was what Lot did to save the two male angels from the crowd that were demanding him to give them up to them. Also, what about the incest in that story that went on between Lot and his daughters. Are we do believe that is okay too? That is the problem when we take scripture as the inerrant and infallible word of God. We get caught up in so many of the inconsistencies and contradictions that we have to twist our logical minds in so many ways that in the end we come across as unbelievable. That is my opinion anyway.

Wait a dang minute - the bible does NOT teach that Lot's actions were RIGHT - it's just giving the account of events. In fact, Lot is not cast as a hero at ALL in the bible - he's given as an example of a person who sells out, who caters to the whims of the deranged society in which he lives, who chooses to live in such a society and who disregards God's commandments.

He's an example of who we should NOT become.

 

[Kathryn]

Actually this is a very common misconception, which sadly is even being popularized in our most respected medias to the common readers.
In genetics, there is no gene for anything. phenotypes or traits may be caused by known genes, but there is no gene for obesity, no gene for cancer, no gene for any addiction.
and to the second part of your post, I have to say that many see a brutal truth that genes are the dictators of our lives, for example in the most basic physical example, a person who pursues a healthy life may put themselves on a very harsh health diet for life, but the truth is that their choice of nutrition will never have the same weight of effect over their health as their genetics.

OK call it what you will - genes, heredity, brain configurations - my point is that we are ALL born with inherent weaknesses, predispositions to certain diseases, etc. In fact, if the truth be known, the boundaries of human sexuality are probably endless - and many of those sexual tendencies could be considered counterproductive to a healthy lifestyle.

You know what - I am genetically/hereditorily (whatever) predispositioned to be overweight. No matter what I do, I am always going to have to really watch my food choices and lifestyle if I want to remain fit. My mother is tall and willowy and can eat like a horse. I have to stick to under 1500 calories a day in order not to gain any weight.

This doesn't mean that I should just say "To heck with it," and eat 2000 calories a day and slowly creep up the scale. No, if I want to be healthy, I have to make sacrifices.

And as a Christian, I think it's my duty to keep my body healthy - even though I have to sacrifice my own "will."

 

[Kathryn]

I certainly hope you aren't claiming homosexuality is a choice.

I'm not saying that the tendency toward homosexual urges is a choice, anymore than the urge to drink lots of alcohol is a choice for an alcoholic.

Is the urge to have multiple sexual partners a choice? Is the urge to have sex with kids a choice? Some people would tell you emphatically that they couldn't help themselves - they had to do it.

What I'm saying is that, if we're honest, we will all admit that we have some urges (some of them pretty strong) that we have to control in our lives. Whether we control them because of our religious beliefs, or because of our beliefs about common decency, or the order of society, or because we're afraid of getting arrested - we still can't live simply by our urges.

 

[darkendless]

I'm not saying that the tendency toward homosexual urges is a choice, anymore than the urge to drink lots of alcohol is a choice for an alcoholic.

Is the urge to have multiple sexual partners a choice? Is the urge to have sex with kids a choice? Some people would tell you emphatically that they couldn't help themselves - they had to do it.

What I'm saying is that, if we're honest, we will all admit that we have some urges (some of them pretty strong) that we have to control in our lives. Whether we control them because of our religious beliefs, or because of our beliefs about common decency, or the order of society, or because we're afraid of getting arrested - we still can't live simply by our urges.

So according to you, homosexuals should control their urges to be themselves, and be fake, faceless sheep like many godfearing people just so they dont offend anyone, and in order to keep a decent society based on out dated morals? Wow, that might have been acceptable in the dark ages. Being a homosexual is different to being a rapist, there is really no connection. Homosexuality is not hurting anyone, nor is it dangerous to society.

 

[Kathryn]

So according to you, homosexuals should control their urges to be themselves, and be fake, faceless sheep like many godfearing people just so they dont offend anyone, and in order to keep a decent society based on out dated morals? Wow, that might have been acceptable in the dark ages. Being a homosexual is different to being a rapist, there is really no connection. Homosexuality is not hurting anyone, nor is it dangerous to society.

NO - what I am saying is that we can't base our behaviors simply on our urges or our genes or heredity.

Personally, homosexual behavior doesn't offend me, as long as it's not directed at me or blatantly sexual in public (wouldn't want to see a heterosexual couple making out in public either). I have had several close friends who are gay and to each his own.

My acceptance of them as people with common human dignity doesn't mean I have to accept that all their actions are right. And for all I know, they can't understand how I could possibly be attracted to my husband, or vice versa.

Let's take two of my gay friends as an example - in this case two men. For one thing, they know that I'm not gay. They also know that I am a Christian and that my children are raised with Christian values. When my kids were small, my gay friends did not engage in much public display of their affections around my kids. They refrained from this out of respect for my household.

I also respected their household and made that clear to my kids. When we got together for dinner at their house, I certainly didn't expect them to pretend they weren't a couple. It was obvious that there was only one bedroom in their house, and only one bed. There were photos of them together everywhere.

Heck, our two families even went on vacations together.

Besides the fact that I really love both of these guys, I felt that this was a good way to teach my children values AND tolerance. My friends were good neighbors (we've moved since then). They were kind to my kids. They were fun to be around. To me, it didn't matter what they did in the privacy of their own home. And that's been a basic tenet of my belief system that I felt was important to pass on to my kids.

My kids are all grown now and all four of them are independent thinkers and tolerant of others. And they are all professing Christians - though their lifestyles vary greatly.