What will Christians and Muslims have to say

[McBell]

Evolution is a theory with many gaps and shortcoming, not a fact.

Again, thank you for furthering my point.

Can evolution explain how life started? No.

Evolution makes no claim about how life began.
That would abiogenesis.

Yet again you further my point.

 

[ProudMuslim]

This is not meant to attack your religion, but even if there was comprehensive evidence to prove evolution, would you believe it over the word of Mohammed?

No offense intended, but why are there many non-believers in this forum insist on coming up with hypothetical situations and presume the reaction of believers?
Science so far did not shake my confidence in Islam, mainly because so far it has either proved, complimented or explained some events. That is fact.

But i am confident evolution will never explain how life starts. I am sure science will never be able to come close to the perfection of God's creation.

Then again, evolution is a fact, its just like gravity, everyone loves to poke holes in explanations for both, but no one ever comes up with anything more substantial.

Evolution is a theory just like Creationism is a theory. The reality so far is religion fills the gaps of evolution.

 

[darkendless]

No offense intended, but why are there many non-believers in this forum insist on coming up with hypothetical situations and presume the reaction of believers?
Science so far did not shake my confidence in Islam, mainly because so far it has either proved, complimented or explained some events. That is fact.

But i am confident evolution will never explain how life starts. I am sure science will never be able to come close to the perfection of God's creation.

Hypothetical situations get your brain working. DOn't worry, i don't expect anyone to renouce their beliefs. Science will come up with the answers, we're a society bent on perfection, "failure" is not an option for science.

Evolution is a theory just like Creationism is a theory. The reality so far is religion fills the gaps of evolution.

If you believe that, you need to come to work with me for a day. I do experience on a work site as a geo-technical engineer. Some of the geology is amazing and it all relates to evolution.
Evolution has so much evidence to support it that denying it is simply stupid.

 

[ProudMuslim]

Again, thank you for furthering my point.

LOL. If i am not mistaken i think it was you who complained about how some Muslims go all "postal" when they refuse to accept any irrationale thought (the last is my interepretation ). So my friend are you ready for some long posts to prove evolution is not a fact, it is a theory just like creationism? In fact such posts are already posted in another sub-forum.

Seriously i think you are smart enough to admit that evolution never tackled the "why" or "when" questions?

Evolution makes no claim about how life began.
That would abiogenesis.

My mistake, thank you.

 

[ProudMuslim]

If you believe that, you need to come to work with me for a day. I do experience on a work site as a geo-technical engineer. Some of the geology is amazing and it all relates to evolution.
Evolution has so much evidence to support it that denying it is simply stupid.

What an interesting job you have!

I don't deny evolution totally, of course not. I said there are issues that are not convincing such evolution of ape to human, or the concept that says that whatever part (of our bodies) we don't need/use just disappear gradually.

What i am trying to say here i don't deny evolution because of religion, because i do believe religion and science work hand in hand. I just didn't find convincing answers for my questions.

 

[darkendless]

What an interesting job you have!

I don't deny evolution totally, of course not. I said there are issues that are not convincing such evolution of ape to human, or the concept that says that whatever part (of our bodies) we don't need/use just disappear gradually.

What i am trying to say here i don't deny evolution because of religion, because i do believe religion and science work hand in hand. I just didn't find convincing answers for my questions.

Standing in a hole in the sun all day is not as fun as it sounds, get too see some cool things though.

I apologise, i misunderstood your post, i thought before by "evolution is full of gaps" you dismissed it completely. Sadly, many people do believe exactly what i have just described. In this day and age its quite concerning.

 

[ProudMuslim]

Standing in a hole in the sun all day is not as fun as it sounds, get too see some cool things though.

I apologise, i misunderstood your post, i thought before by "evolution is full of gaps" you dismissed it completely. Sadly, many people do believe exactly what i have just described. In this day and age its quite concerning.

No worries. Maybe it was me who didn't clarify it.

At least you got to see some cool things, i was trapped in what i call "hen house" with no window for over 13 months :no:

 

[darkendless]

NO - what I am saying is that we can't base our behaviors simply on our urges or our genes or heredity.

Personally, homosexual behavior doesn't offend me, as long as it's not directed at me or blatantly sexual in public (wouldn't want to see a heterosexual couple making out in public either). I have had several close friends who are gay and to each his own.

My acceptance of them as people with common human dignity doesn't mean I have to accept that all their actions are right. And for all I know, they can't understand how I could possibly be attracted to my husband, or vice versa.

Let's take two of my gay friends as an example - in this case two men. For one thing, they know that I'm not gay. They also know that I am a Christian and that my children are raised with Christian values. When my kids were small, my gay friends did not engage in much public display of their affections around my kids. They refrained from this out of respect for my household.

I also respected their household and made that clear to my kids. When we got together for dinner at their house, I certainly didn't expect them to pretend they weren't a couple. It was obvious that there was only one bedroom in their house, and only one bed. There were photos of them together everywhere.

Heck, our two families even went on vacations together.

Besides the fact that I really love both of these guys, I felt that this was a good way to teach my children values AND tolerance. My friends were good neighbors (we've moved since then). They were kind to my kids. They were fun to be around. To me, it didn't matter what they did in the privacy of their own home. And that's been a basic tenet of my belief system that I felt was important to pass on to my kids.

My kids are all grown now and all four of them are independent thinkers and tolerant of others. And they are all professing Christians - though their lifestyles vary greatly.

From my scripture i think it is important to embrace our urges and our animal instincts. Living a fake life for the sake of others and for society doesn't sit well with me. In many previous debates it feels as though mastering our animal instincts is somewhat applaudable. I fail to see how supressing urges is a good thing.

Obviously your example is different. When i visit my grandmother i remove all my jewellery because it offends her. Sure it annoyed me, but sometimes we have to give ground in order for the world to keep spinning. However when she comes here to her, i explain simply that it is my room and ill listen to what ever music tickles my fancy. I think everyone accepts that their grandparents are prudes though

When i read your post my thought was permanently supressing urges. For example, pretending your whole life to be straight when you're not. I apologise if there was miscommunication.

 

[Kathryn]

From my scripture i think it is important to embrace our urges and our animal instincts. Living a fake life for the sake of others and for society doesn't sit well with me. In many previous debates it feels as though mastering our animal instincts is somewhat applaudable. I fail to see how supressing urges is a good thing.

Obviously your example is different. When i visit my grandmother i remove all my jewellery because it offends her. Sure it annoyed me, but sometimes we have to give ground in order for the world to keep spinning. However when she comes here to her, i explain simply that it is my room and ill listen to what ever music tickles my fancy. I think everyone accepts that their grandparents are prudes though

When i read your post my thought was permanently supressing urges. For example, pretending your whole life to be straight when you're not. I apologise if there was miscommunication.

Hey, don't worry about it.

I do think though that we do need to sometimes suppress urges. You probably think so too.

Listen, if I gave in to my urges, I would be 400 pounds and a wino. I would also smoke menthol cigarettes all day long just because I love them. To be honest, I've always understood how two women could become lovers - and if I just wandered through life exploring all my urges, who knows - I might be a 400 pound, chain smoking, merlot swigging lesbian before it was all said and done. Might have a bit of trouble finding a girlfriend but hey, it could happen.

My point is - there's a difference between FAKING and BEING OBEDIENT TO YOUR FAITH'S BELIEFS.

Doing the right thing is often harder than doing the wrong thing. It would be a lot easier for me to unwind with a bottle of merlot and a pack of Capris every night, but in the end I would end up hurting myself and others.

 

[McBell]

LOL. If i am not mistaken i think it was you who complained about how some Muslims go all "postal" when they refuse to accept any irrationale thought (the last is my interepretation ).

Really?
Where did I say anything that even remotely resembles that?

So my friend are you ready for some long posts to prove evolution is not a fact, it is a theory just like creationism? In fact such posts are already posted in another sub-forum.

Off topic.
Start a new thread for it.
I am sure Autodidact will show up in it sooner or later and present the truth for you to deny.

Seriously i think you are smart enough to admit that evolution never tackled the "why" or "when" questions?

Evolution only attempts to explain the diversity of life on the planet.
Evolution has absolutely nothing to say about how or when life began.
That would be abiogenesis.
Seems I already mentioned that......

 

[*Paul*]

If such a gene were discovered that would mean that there was a gene which determined what you were sexually attracted to.

All peversions would be acceptable or at least justifiable, I read about some dodgy creep who was having intercourse with a goat and got arrested, however his conviction could be quashed a future date. The goat didn't complain and why should this man not be allowed to live a gratifying life since he couldn't help his overwhelming attraction to this nanny, maybe if the goat doesn't object they could get married too. Necrophiliacs too, the corspe is not really a vicitim and feels no hurt or pain maybe we should just let them get on with it too providing their are no living relatives to object.

But in all seriousness such a discovery would not change my opinion at all, I believe that all are born with a sin nature inherant in whatever motivates behaviour, some develop an inclination towards covetesness and become theives, others have violent streaks and become thugs and some become homosexuals.

The remedy for all is the same, you must be born again, receive a new heart from the Lord through faith in Christ, let His Holy Spirit dwell in you and you will find a new will in you that delights in doing God's will and gives you the power to perform it.

 

[McBell]

 

[ProudMuslim]

Really?
Where did I say anything that even remotely resembles that?

You said that Muslims go all postal in Muhammed (PBUH) comparative study thread.

I am sure Autodidact will show up in it sooner or later and present the truth for you to deny.

NO i accept the truth that's why i believe in creationism.

Evolution only attempts to explain the diversity of life on the planet.
Evolution has absolutely nothing to say about how or when life began.

I was not referring to life here, i was referring to when exactly did an ape or whatever that animal was become a human? and why?

 

[McBell]

You said that Muslims go all postal in Muhammed (PBUH) comparative study thread.

You mean this post:

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/1468601-post9.html
​

If so, you seriously need to work on your reading comprehension skills.

NO i accept the truth that's why i believe in creationism.

What does creationism have to do with evolution?

I was not referring to life here, i was referring to when exactly did an ape or whatever that animal was become a human? and why?

Thank you furthering my point.

Interestingly enough, we are off topic.

How about you start YET ANOTHER thread about how creation is the truth and evolution is...whatever you claim it to be.

 

[LuisDantas]

(...)

Secondly, we know that people are not born homosexual but rather it is an impact the society and environment has upon a person.

(...)

Let me ask you a counter-question.

If scientists find a gene for rape and prove to the world that there are some babies who are genetically born to become rapists. If those babies then grew up, became adults and then raped someone, would you then say that's fine, don't punish them since they had the genes anyway?

Although I do not take your story as a credible source of evidence since I have no information on your trustworthiness (no disrespect), I do think that such cases can exist.

I did not deny the possibility of such cases.

(...)

The lesson that is learnt from such a story is that although evil actions may not exist in a society, but it is still possible for someone to commit a new kind of evil action.

Having said that, I do believe that if that someone hangs around in a society then they are more likely to develop the culture of that society.

(...)

Islam cannot change it's stance against homosexuality. The Law of God remains unchanged since Only He is the True Legislator. Compare this to man-made law, such as Democracy.

I mean a person could be considered a criminal if he/she has sex with the same gender below the age of 18 in UK. However, that same person would not be regarded as criminal in other countries such as Germany, for example. So according to man-made law you wouldn't know who's right and who's wrong.

Oh boy. I am so sorry to see such words.

That, I think, shows very well why religion must always be questioned and kept separate from the powers of the State.

When a significant number of people decide to attribute infalibility and supreme significance to religious dogma, things cannot go any other way but awry.

You see, dogma, as you claim yourself, cannot be changed, meaning among other things that it cannot be perfect or corrected. Apparently in opposition to you, I think that shows that human values and judgments are in fact definitely superior and more trustworthy than dogma-derived ones.

Why? Precisely because dogma is incapable of recognizing the subtleties and new challenges and circunstances of real life, while human society, for all its faults and shortcomings, at the very least attempts to.

I am very disturbed to see so many Muslims (and Christians) give more weight to scripture than to living people's discernment and motivation. That, in fact, is one of the main reasons why I know that Abraham's God is either non-existent or unworthy of consideration: one of the two explanations must be true to allow for the existence of theists that commit such an (sorry, but I must say it) obvious and terrible mistake. Surely a real and worthy God would not allow such grotesque misuse of his teachings.

 

[darkendless]

NO i accept the truth that's why i believe in creationism.

Creationism has nothing reasonable to go with, no evidence. That is unless you take lack of evidence in evolution to be evidence for creationism which i think is a little unfounded.

 

[jtartar]

When and if a gay gene is identified by geneticists. Will you abandon your stance that it is a choice, evil, abomination, unnatural?

My Opinion,
There will never be a gene discovered that proves the homosexual lifestyle is somehting a person has no choice about.
The reason this is true is: God made mankind, and He would NEVER condemn anyone who had no choice in a matter.
By what the Bible says at, Lev 20:13, 1Cor 6:9-11, Rom 1:26-32, 1Tim 1:8-10, Eph 5:3-5, we know for a certainty, that God condemns homosexual practices, for He says none will be in His Kingdom.
There are many who thought homosexuality was something they were born with, but have received help, and have changede their lifestyles, so can anyone who wants to, with God's help.

 

[challupa]

My Opinion,
There will never be a gene discovered that proves the homosexual lifestyle is somehting a person has no choice about.
The reason this is true is: God made mankind, and He would NEVER condemn anyone who had no choice in a matter.
By what the Bible says at, Lev 20:13, 1Cor 6:9-11, Rom 1:26-32, 1Tim 1:8-10, Eph 5:3-5, we know for a certainty, that God condemns homosexual practices, for He says none will be in His Kingdom.
There are many who thought homosexuality was something they were born with, but have received help, and have changede their lifestyles, so can anyone who wants to, with God's help.

I cannot understand how people can read negative messages in their scriptures and attribute them to God's messages. I also cannot see why anyone would believe a god who is all loving, forgiving and merciful would condemn any of his creation. I don't understand why people haven't figured out that the negative messages in their scripture are all man made in order to create a society which the "elders" had control over. When oh when are these things going to become evident. How can people make such a monster out of their Gods???

 

[McBell]

I cannot understand how people can read negative messages in their scriptures and attribute them to God's messages. I also cannot see why anyone would believe a god who is all loving, forgiving and merciful would condemn any of his creation. I don't understand why people haven't figured out that the negative messages in their scripture are all man made in order to create a society which the "elders" had control over. When oh when are these things going to become evident. How can people make such a monster out of their Gods???

"There are none more blind that those who refuse to see"

 

[DallasApple]

There are many who thought homosexuality was something they were born with, but have received help, and have changede their lifestyles, so can anyone who wants to, with God's help.

First of all there arent "many"..2nd of all its been determined the small % you speak of were not born homosexuals to begin with.

But if Im wrong and there are "many"..could you please provide the resources to back that up?

Love

Dallas