syo
Well-Known Member
What IS the second coming????
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What will the Second Coming of Christ look like?
- Thread starter loverofhumanity
- Start date
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
My point was that what people *believe* about who the Great One is makes no difference whatsoever.
He was/is whoever He was/is. That is determined by God, the One who sent the Great One.
Do you understand that reality is not determined by what people believe?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
They are the ones who should accurately represent what they believe because they are the ones who are most familiar with their beliefs. I do not want to represent others' beliefs, only my own.
Of course I do not claim that they agree with me, and I know most of them never will, at least not for a very long time. Human nature is to cling to what is known, what people are comfortable with, so most people do not step outside what they already believe to look at a *new* religion.
Put a Muslim, Jew, Hindu and Christian together and ask them to search for truth. If they all find truth they will find themselves united because truth cannot contradict itself. If they all find truth they will find the same thing for truth is one. The fact they are at odds with each other means either one or all haven’t found truth. Because it is impossible for truth to contradict itself.
That is how Baha’is became one. We were from Hindu, Buddhist, Muslim, Jew, Zoroastrian, Christian and atheist background and searched for truth and all found Baha’u’llah because our own Holy Books pointed to Him.
Now that is just Plain common sense to me.
In fact it is what attracted me, the Oneness of God. That all people talk of the same God and all we have to do is drop our predudices.
Thing is, one has to consider how much predudice they still have and that journey of self, is never easy.
Tony
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Baha'is will sometimes say "all major religions" are from one source, the one God. And that one God sent different messengers that all told of this "Great One" to come. Of course it is the two prophets of the Baha'i Faith, the man that took the title of "The Bab" and the man that took the title of "Baha'u'llah." Which conveniently, those titles fulfill all sorts of prophecies since The Bab is The Gate, and Baha'u'llah, The Glory of God, came through the gate and that people will see the Glory of God coming.
But, what about other ancient religions? Who did the ancient Greeks predict would come? Or the Egyptians? Or the Chinese? Since they believe no people were left without a message from the One God, I've asked them who was the messenger that told the Aztecs that God needed the blood from human hearts to be appeased?
I think all people, in all cultures had their beliefs and had their gods. To me, it was most likely the people invented their own gods. Even as recent as 2000 years ago with Jesus, the Christians made him into being part of the One God, and came up with a trinitarian god that was still one God.
I'm so glad I'm not the only one you call "illogical". But... it would be like basketball fans saying who is the greatest of all time? Is that person going to be the same when you ask baseball fans? Or tennis fans. Or, football fans? And, the fans aren't going to agree.
Most of the time Baha'is will only take the major religions, and even though the God or gods of those religions is already can be defined differently in each religion, but Baha'is then have to make the one prophesied, this "Great One", the same person. But already, the Baha'is make some of the prophecies fulfilled by The Bab, not Baha'u'llah. So Baha'is have two "Great Ones"?
Who cares what the people in a particular religion think? It's their religion and their Scriptures. Yet, Baha'is know more? Baha'is know what those Scriptures of the other religions really mean? I bet you know who I agree with, you or Spiritual Philosophy. For the Baha'is to be right, the Scriptures in all the other major religions would have had to have had major changes and manipulations. They are not one. They are all different.
And, I really do believe that Baha'is agree with that. Because they have come up with the mysterious, no where to be found, "original" message from the prophet. That "original" message Baha'is say came from one source and in all the various religions, that "original" message, agreed with the message given to the other religions. Which creates another problem for Baha'is. They have to give a reason why the Scriptures of the different religions are not totally true and from that one source... but had things changed and added by the religious leaders of that religion.
The other thing that Baha'is do is manipulate and force prophecies from those other religions to be all pointing to The Bab and Baha'u'llah. Some prophecies work reasonably well, others don't. Like the number of the beast, the 666. Baha'is manipulate the year 661AD to get to 666 by adding 5 years, because it is estimated that Jesus was born prior to year 0. And 5 years just so happens to work for the Baha'is. But what if it 6? Or 2? Come on Miss Logical, not everything in the Baha'i Faith comes out as sweet and logical as Baha'is try to show.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
What about polytheistic religions? Or religions that believe their God was greater than the gods of the other people around them? And that their God wanted them to kill the people and prophets of that other religion?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I call a lot of people illogical but I always explain why I think so.
Baha'is do not MAKE anything anything. People can interpret those prophecies any way they want to and they all try to MAKE THEM FIT what they WANT TO BELIEVE. That is why Christians do not agree about what will happen "when Jesus comes."
The Great One was Baha'u'llah. the Bab was the Gate to Baha'u'llah, the One who foretold His Coming:
“Zechariah, speaking of the last days, prophesied of the twin holy souls who would appear, saying: “Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.”(Zechariah 4:14). In addition to the two ‘woes’, Revelation speaks of the ‘two olive trees’ and the ‘two candlesticks’. Malachi, speaking of the time of the end, prophesied:“Behold I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.” (Malachi 4:5). This was the very land, Persia, in which Daniel beheld.”… one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven…” (Daniel 7:13).
The Báb foretold that this great Redeemer would appear exactly nine years after his own coming. He would, therefore, as prophesied in the Old Testament, ‘suddenly come to his temple’. He would thus come just as Christ had so often emphasized in the Book of Revelation: “Behold I come quickly.”
Malachi, who called it the great and dreadful day of the Lord, foretold the appearance of two at the time of the end, saying:“Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple …” (Malachi 3:1). The Báb repeatedly said that he was the Dawn, but that the Promise of all Ages Who was soon to come after him would be the Sun. He foretold that this great world Saviour would usher in an age of unprecedented progress and peace.”
Thief in the Night, pp. 93-94
I do not know what they mean and I do not care what they mean because this is a new age, so only the current message matters to me. To those who are not Baha'is, whatever they believe matters to them. Does the Bahai message matter to the adherents to those religions? No, it does not, so why the double standard? Why should Baha'is care what older scriptures say? And no, I do not pretend to know their scriptures better than they do. I do know the prophecies were fulfilled but that is another story.
No, the original message will not be the same because there would be no logical reason to send a new Messenger with exactly the same message. What will be the same will be the spiritual teachings. The message will be different and the social teachings and laws will be different, suited to the age in which it is revealed.
“The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 213
No, we do not manipulate and force anything. I could just as easily say that Jews and Christians manipulate the prophecies to SAY what they want them to SAY so they can wait forever for their respective Messiahs.
Yes, exactly. I prefer to believe things that match reality.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
You know I will always check the context to which you will say that the Bible isn't your thing. Well, here's the context anyway... just in case you want to read it. If you do please explain what it means? I don't know. But, unless the context makes sense, don't do like the Christians and take a verse here and a verse their and call it fulfilled prophecy. Here's Zechariah...
4:1 Then the angel who talked with me returned and woke me up, like someone awakened from sleep.
2 He asked me, “What do you see?” I answered, “I see a solid gold lampstand with a bowl at the top and seven lamps on it, with seven channels to the lamps.
3 Also there are two olive trees by it, one on the right of the bowl and the other on its left.”
4 I asked the angel who talked with me, “What are these, my lord?”
5 He answered, “Do you not know what these are?” “No, my lord,” I replied.
6 So he said to me, “This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel: ‘Not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit,’ says the LORD Almighty.
7 “What are you, mighty mountain? Before Zerubbabel you will become level ground. Then he will bring out the capstone to shouts of ‘God bless it! God bless it!’ ”
8 Then the word of the LORD came to me:
9 “The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this temple; his hands will also complete it. Then you will know that the LORD Almighty has sent me to you.
10 “Who dares despise the day of small things, since the seven eyes of the LORD that range throughout the earth will rejoice when they see the chosen capstone in the hand of Zerubbabel?”
11 Then I asked the angel, “What are these two olive trees on the right and the left of the lampstand?”
12 Again I asked him, “What are these two olive branches beside the two gold pipes that pour out golden oil?”
13 He replied, “Do you not know what these are?” “No, my lord,” I said.
14 So he said, “These are the two who are anointed to serve the Lord of all the earth.”
5:1 I looked again, and there before me was a flying scroll.
2 He asked me, “What do you see?” I answered, “I see a flying scroll, twenty cubits long and ten cubits wide. ”
3 And he said to me, “This is the curse that is going out over the whole land; for according to what it says on one side, every thief will be banished, and according to what it says on the other, everyone who swears falsely will be banished.
4 The LORD Almighty declares, ‘I will send it out, and it will enter the house of the thief and the house of anyone who swears falsely by my name. It will remain in that house and destroy it completely, both its timbers and its stones.’ ”
5 Then the angel who was speaking to me came forward and said to me, “Look up and see what is appearing.”
6 I asked, “What is it?” He replied, “It is a basket.” And he added, “This is the iniquity of the people throughout the land.”
7 Then the cover of lead was raised, and there in the basket sat a woman!
8 He said, “This is wickedness,” and he pushed her back into the basket and pushed its lead cover down on it.
9 Then I looked up—and there before me were two women, with the wind in their wings! They had wings like those of a stork, and they lifted up the basket between heaven and earth.
10 “Where are they taking the basket?” I asked the angel who was speaking to me.
11 He replied, “To the country of Babylonia to build a house for it. When the house is ready, the basket will be set there in its place.”
2 He asked me, “What do you see?” I answered, “I see a solid gold lampstand with a bowl at the top and seven lamps on it, with seven channels to the lamps.
3 Also there are two olive trees by it, one on the right of the bowl and the other on its left.”
4 I asked the angel who talked with me, “What are these, my lord?”
5 He answered, “Do you not know what these are?” “No, my lord,” I replied.
6 So he said to me, “This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel: ‘Not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit,’ says the LORD Almighty.
7 “What are you, mighty mountain? Before Zerubbabel you will become level ground. Then he will bring out the capstone to shouts of ‘God bless it! God bless it!’ ”
8 Then the word of the LORD came to me:
9 “The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this temple; his hands will also complete it. Then you will know that the LORD Almighty has sent me to you.
10 “Who dares despise the day of small things, since the seven eyes of the LORD that range throughout the earth will rejoice when they see the chosen capstone in the hand of Zerubbabel?”
11 Then I asked the angel, “What are these two olive trees on the right and the left of the lampstand?”
12 Again I asked him, “What are these two olive branches beside the two gold pipes that pour out golden oil?”
13 He replied, “Do you not know what these are?” “No, my lord,” I said.
14 So he said, “These are the two who are anointed to serve the Lord of all the earth.”
5:1 I looked again, and there before me was a flying scroll.
2 He asked me, “What do you see?” I answered, “I see a flying scroll, twenty cubits long and ten cubits wide. ”
3 And he said to me, “This is the curse that is going out over the whole land; for according to what it says on one side, every thief will be banished, and according to what it says on the other, everyone who swears falsely will be banished.
4 The LORD Almighty declares, ‘I will send it out, and it will enter the house of the thief and the house of anyone who swears falsely by my name. It will remain in that house and destroy it completely, both its timbers and its stones.’ ”
5 Then the angel who was speaking to me came forward and said to me, “Look up and see what is appearing.”
6 I asked, “What is it?” He replied, “It is a basket.” And he added, “This is the iniquity of the people throughout the land.”
7 Then the cover of lead was raised, and there in the basket sat a woman!
8 He said, “This is wickedness,” and he pushed her back into the basket and pushed its lead cover down on it.
9 Then I looked up—and there before me were two women, with the wind in their wings! They had wings like those of a stork, and they lifted up the basket between heaven and earth.
10 “Where are they taking the basket?” I asked the angel who was speaking to me.
11 He replied, “To the country of Babylonia to build a house for it. When the house is ready, the basket will be set there in its place.”
Now what interesting is that the Two Olive Branches here are The Bab and Baha'u'llah. But in Revelation the Two Olive Trees and the Two Candlesticks are Muhammad and Ali.
From Some Answered Questions: These two witnesses are Muḥammad the Messenger of God, and ‘Alí… Then it is said: “These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.”
With Malachi, Elijah is not a "manifestation". Unless you make John the Baptist, the Elijah for Jesus, a manifestation too. Here is some more of Malachi 3. In context, what is this talking about? Do you think a Jew might know? Maybe huh, but we don't believe and care what they think. Just because it is their Book, what would they know?1 “I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come,” says the LORD Almighty.
2 But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.
3 He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver; he will purify the Levites and refine them like gold and silver. Then the LORD will have men who will bring offerings in righteousness,
4 and the offerings of Judah and Jerusalem will be acceptable to the LORD, as in days gone by, as in former years.
5 “So I will come to put you on trial. I will be quick to testify against sorcerers, adulterers and perjurers, against those who defraud laborers of their wages, who oppress the widows and the fatherless, and deprive the foreigners among you of justice, but do not fear me,” says the LORD Almighty.
2 But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.
3 He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver; he will purify the Levites and refine them like gold and silver. Then the LORD will have men who will bring offerings in righteousness,
4 and the offerings of Judah and Jerusalem will be acceptable to the LORD, as in days gone by, as in former years.
5 “So I will come to put you on trial. I will be quick to testify against sorcerers, adulterers and perjurers, against those who defraud laborers of their wages, who oppress the widows and the fatherless, and deprive the foreigners among you of justice, but do not fear me,” says the LORD Almighty.
The 4 Proofs of a Prophet
How did the uneducated disciples of Christ recognise His Truth above the learned and educated Jewish high priests? Spiritual knowledge is not dependent on human education but purity of heart. As it is said by Jesus “ The pure in heart they shall see God”, in other words recognise His Manifestation. Proofs in the Bible along with Their teachings are sufficient testimony They are from God so we need to look at both the prophecies and what They taught.
A supreme proof is the teaching. For instance the precepts of Christ were sufficient proof of his validity. There is no greater proof than these teachings. They were the light of that cycle and the spirit of that age. All that he said accorded with the needs of the humanity of that time. They were peerless and unique.(Divine Philosophy)
As to the greatest proof of Baha’u’llah it is His teachings.
Consider His Holiness Baha’u’llah and his teaching. They are the spirit of this cycle – the light of this age. They illumine the dark places of humanity, for they address themselves to the heart of the race. For instance, the greatest evil of this century is war. In the new age Baha’u’llah has prohibited war. The need of this century is universal peace – Baha’u’llah has instituted it. The most urgent requisite of mankind is the declaration of the oneness of the world of humanity – this is the great principle of Baha’u’llah. That which will leaven the human world is a love that will insure the abandonment of pride, oppression and hatred. The principles of Baha’u’llah are the remedy and balm for the wounded world; and without their inculcation, reconciliation between the nations will not be reached. These very teachings of Baha’u’llah are the greatest proofs of his claim. Such a power hath appeared from him as will suffice to convince the whole world.
The proof of the sun is its light and heat. – Abdu’l-Baha, Divine Philosophy
How did the uneducated disciples of Christ recognise His Truth above the learned and educated Jewish high priests? Spiritual knowledge is not dependent on human education but purity of heart. As it is said by Jesus “ The pure in heart they shall see God”, in other words recognise His Manifestation. Proofs in the Bible along with Their teachings are sufficient testimony They are from God so we need to look at both the prophecies and what They taught.
A supreme proof is the teaching. For instance the precepts of Christ were sufficient proof of his validity. There is no greater proof than these teachings. They were the light of that cycle and the spirit of that age. All that he said accorded with the needs of the humanity of that time. They were peerless and unique.(Divine Philosophy)
As to the greatest proof of Baha’u’llah it is His teachings.
Consider His Holiness Baha’u’llah and his teaching. They are the spirit of this cycle – the light of this age. They illumine the dark places of humanity, for they address themselves to the heart of the race. For instance, the greatest evil of this century is war. In the new age Baha’u’llah has prohibited war. The need of this century is universal peace – Baha’u’llah has instituted it. The most urgent requisite of mankind is the declaration of the oneness of the world of humanity – this is the great principle of Baha’u’llah. That which will leaven the human world is a love that will insure the abandonment of pride, oppression and hatred. The principles of Baha’u’llah are the remedy and balm for the wounded world; and without their inculcation, reconciliation between the nations will not be reached. These very teachings of Baha’u’llah are the greatest proofs of his claim. Such a power hath appeared from him as will suffice to convince the whole world.
The proof of the sun is its light and heat. – Abdu’l-Baha, Divine Philosophy
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Indeed, the teachings that lead to the education and advancement of the world of humanity are the proofs of a Prophet:
"What then is the mission of the divine prophets? Their mission is the education and advancement of the world of humanity. They are the real teachers and educators, the universal instructors of mankind. If we wish to discover whether any one of these great souls or messengers was in reality a prophet of God we must investigate the facts surrounding His life and history; and the first point of our investigation will be the education He bestowed upon mankind. If He has been an educator, if He has really trained a nation or people, causing it to rise from the lowest depths of ignorance to the highest station of knowledge, then we are sure that He was a prophet. This is a plain and clear method of procedure, proof that is irrefutable. We do not need to seek after other proofs.” Bahá’í World Faith, p. 273
Baha’u’llah explained how we are supposed to establish the truth of His claim. First, we examine His own Self (His character); then we examine His Revelation (everything that surrounds His Mission on earth); and then we look at His words (His Writings).
“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with 106 the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
No, I do not have a clue what that means, sorry.
And I do not like to conjecture about what I do not know.
I don’t know what all that means and I do not try to figure it out. I accept whatever Abdu’l-Baha wrote as authoritative if he explained verse meanings. Sure, Jews would have their own interpretations and so would Christians and all Christians and Jews would not have the same interpretations.
I am sure glad I do not need to know what the Bible means.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Two olives are The Bab and Baha'u'llah one time and Muhammad and Ali in the other. A verse here and a verse there taken with no regard for context is not necessarily a prophecy of anything. Christians do it too, like with Isaiah and a "virgin" shall have a son. But the rest of the verses have nothing to do with Jesus. Yet, millions of Christians could care less about the rest of those verses. All they need to know is that one verse fits the birth story of Jesus.No, I do not have a clue what that means, sorry.
And I do not like to conjecture about what I do not know.
I don’t know what all that means and I do not try to figure it out. I accept whatever Abdu’l-Baha wrote as authoritative if he explained verse meanings. Sure, Jews would have their own interpretations and so would Christians and all Christians and Jews would not have the same interpretations.
I am sure glad I do not need to know what the Bible means.
No, I do not have a clue what that means, sorry.
And I do not like to conjecture about what I do not know.
I don’t know what all that means and I do not try to figure it out. I accept whatever Abdu’l-Baha wrote as authoritative if he explained verse meanings. Sure, Jews would have their own interpretations and so would Christians and all Christians and Jews would not have the same interpretations.
I am sure glad I do not need to know what the Bible means.
Cant you see the difference? In Revelation chapter 1
This is my humble understanding. Only my view. I believe these verses are referring to different persons for the following reasons.
The clues are quite clear here i believe, if you look closely. Two Anointed Ones = Two Christs = Two Manifestations of God.
Christ comes from Χριστός (Christos), meaning "anointed one". So two anointed ones are two Christs or Two Manifestations of God.
The other clue i believe in Revelation chapter 11 is that the two olive trees and two candlesticks they are referred to in relation to 1260 days which is 1260: years in Bible prophecy which was the duration of Islam before the two Anointed Ones appeared. 1260 Muslim year is 1844 of the Gregorian calendar.
Also, I believe the term Anointed ones was not used with regards to Muhammad and Ali because only Muhammad was a Manifestation of God yet they were both representing the same Faith so they were mentioned together.
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Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Okay, thanks.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I don't believe theere is a verse to support that view. It sounds like speculation to me.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe those who say that have misjudged what they have seen if they have seen anything like it.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe there is a scriptural basis for that. Unfortunately for those surviving on earth, there is no eternal life. Those who are raptured have eternal life.
I believe there is hope for them but people have a tendency to reach out when things are bad and revert when they are not. After 911 the churches saw a surge but then that dwindled away.