What will the Second Coming of Christ look like?

[TransmutingSoul]

With all the cities facing total destruction? Doesn't seem that magnificent to me. But then I don't believe in them being wiped out. Optimistic, pessimistic, make up your mind, lol.

All depends what one sees as being the purpose of this life. If to find our true potential means our ways have to change greatly, then one sees that change as benifical and is optimistic it will be so.

There needs to be no negativity.

Same if I need to change myself, one does away with old habits and becomes thankful for the change.

Would you not see reincarnation in a positive way?

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

There needs to be no negativity.

50 shades of white.

Then why say all the cities will be destroyed, or other such doomsday prophecies? I see that as negative stuff. To me, I actually see the future in a neutral way, as I don't know, and don't believe in prophecy, or that any prophecy has ever been accurate. Accurate after the fact, sure, but that's just wishful distortion.

Saying we are the latest and best (most suitable to this age) is indirectly critical of all other faiths, whether you see it or not.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yeah, there is one Hindu poster there who is pretty persistent and he does not like it when people disagree with him. I attended that movie for some time about six months ago and I am not prepared to try it again. Live and learn.

Good thing is, one does not have to, nor are they compelled to change their mind.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Saying we are the latest and best (most suitable to this age) is indirectly critical of all other faiths, whether you see it or not.

It does not need me to say it, it is or it is not.

It will stand upon its own merit as to what is said and claimed, even if no person sees it that way.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

It does not need me to say it, it is or it is not not.

Thus it will stand upon its own merit as to what is said and claimed.

Regards Tony

Purposeful use of a double negative won't fool anyone. It's not.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Purposeful use of a double negative

You assume I know what you just said.

I do not, hope you are well.

Regards Tony

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Hi Trailblazer. Good to see you again. Not sure if you do Thanksgiving, but if you do, hope you had a great and thankful holiday.

Isaiah 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

It says, "He will judge between the nations." Obviously this is something he is doing during his lifetime. He can't do it if he is dead. Therefore the second part of the verse, beating swords into plowshares and nation not lifting up sword against nation, is during that same period, during his lifetime. You need to be reasonable. You are doing logical backflips in order to make this gel with your preconceived notions.

This prophecy does not say anything will happen “during his reign.” Moreover, the prophecy says nothing about a reign, because there is no reason to think the Messiah would reign like an earthly king reigns.

You do acknowldge, don't you, that there is more than one messianic prophecy??? You have to accept the prophecies that the Messiah is "David" (meaning that he will rule as King), and (even in Isaiah 2) he will judge between the nations.

I'm sorry, but the Baha'u'llah did NOT do that. He did not negotiate major peace agreements between countries on the verge of war, for example. Advocating the League of Nations just doesn't rise to the occasion.

Isaiah 2:4 says what the Messiah will do (he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people) and then it says what will happen as a result of what he does (they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.) Clearly “they” refers to the people who will cause this prophecy to be fulfilled as the result of the Messiah and what he revealed. Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more as the result of what was revealed by the Messiah. Nowhere in any prophecy does it say that the Messiah will put an end to war himself during his lifetime, he just instigated the process.

You are seeking to limit the prophecy. The prophecy is worldwide. He will guide all the nations, and peace will be between all the nations. And sir, that just hasn't happened yet. No contender for the title of messiah has accomplished this. Nor have things even been moving in this direction. Indeed, the 20th century saw things go to hell with WWI and WWII not to mention the use of nuclear weapons and chemical warfare. IOW they went from bad to worse.

Says who?

Jewish scholars, who not only have been at this for a thousand years longer than Christian scholars, but who preserve the original understanding.

I hope you understand no Christian would agree with your interpretation, so what makes you right and all the Christians wrong? Your interpretation centers around Judaism and Jewish beliefs; and the Christian interpretation centers around their belief in Jesus as the Messiah; and the Baha’i interpretation centers around our belief in Baha’u’llah.

I hate badmouthing Christianity because I find Christians to be decent people. But basically, yeah, Christianity takes the Tanakh and twists it out of recognition. They:
1. Take verses out of obvious context, i.e. Hosea 11:1
2. Deliberately mistranslate verses to make them messianic, i.e. Isaiah 7:14.
3. Change entire phrases to make verses more messianic, i.e. Hebrews 10:5 compare to Psalm 40:6)
4. In one instance, create an imaginary verse out of whole cloth: Matthew 27:9-19
If they are going to so butcher my beloved scriptures, why should I have any respect for their opinions or their faith?

Bahaullah did this during His lifetime, so He fulfilled the prophecy. He judged among the nations

Ah, come on. He did not do this on a world scale. He did not bring nations to the table. Writing books is not the same thing. Any person with a pen and paper can write a book. Nothing he had power behind it. Where was his court to hear cases? Where were the consequences for those who refused to comply?

Continued next post.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

No, we cannot assume it means all or virtually all because it does not say all or virtually all.

Isaiah 11:12
He will raise a banner for the nations and gather the exiles of Israel;
he will assemble the scattered people of Judah from the four quarters of the earth.

The scattered people of Judah have already been given eligibility to return to Israel. Nowhere in that prophecy does it say ALL the Jews in the world will return to Israel.

You have to ask yourself how much of Judah qualifies to be identified as Judah. A tenth? a fourth? a half? No. I would say all or close to all. Right now only close to half the Jews of the world live in Israel. It simply doesn't fulfill the prophecy.

As of 2018, the world's Core Jewish Population, those identifying as Jews above all else, was 14.6 million. The Connected Jewish Population, including those who say they are partly Jewish or that have Jewish background from at least one Jewish parent, in addition to the Core Jewish Population, was 17.8 million. The Enlarged Jewish Population, including those who say they have Jewish background but not a Jewish parent, and all non-Jewish household members who live in households with Jews, in addition to the Jewish Connected Population, was 20.7 million. And the Law of Return Jewish Population, which counts all those eligible to immigration to Israel under its Law of Return, 23.5 million.[1][2][3][4][5]

The law of return uses a different standard than Jewish law. The law of return seeks to protect those who were targeted by the nazis. Well Hitler didn't have a really good idea who was actually a Jew and labeled as Jews many who clearly were not. The law of return similarly allows aliyah to many non-Jews such as Christians who have Jewish grandparents. According to Jewish law, a Jew is someone who is born of a Jewish mother, or who is adopted into the tribe by going through a halakhic conversion (like Ruth in the Bible). In this manner, there is no such thing as someone who is 1/2 Jewish or part Jewish. You are either a Jew or you are not -- either part of the tribe or you are not.

It is hard to gage, but there are approximately 14.7 million Jews in the world. As you quoted, 30% live in Israel. 51% live in the US. Clearly not "all or close to all" have returned to Israel.

Do you really think that all the Jews in the United States, half of all the Jews in the world, are going to move to Israel? Where would that many people live?

It's not going to happen any time soon, and the nation of Israel will be considerably larger. How that will happen is anyone's guess. In OUR time, I'm for a two state solution. But I can't predict how things will be 500 years from now. All sorts of things can happen. Who would have predicted in 1900 that Israel would even have been back on the map?

Genealogy of Bahaullah Genealogy of The Báb and Bahá'u'lláh

According to the link you gave, your faith makes a claim that the Baha'u'llah was descended from Jesse/David. However, you make no genealogical tree available to be examined. IOW, it's a claim just sort of made up out of whole cloth, with no evidence provided. Sorry, you don't really expect me to believe something like that do you? We on the other hand actually have real Jews that have their papers intact, preserving, generation by generating, their lineage.

Nowhere in those verses does it say David means to rule from Jerusalem over Israel. Do you have some other verses that say that David means to rule from Jerusalem over Israel?.

Despite your attempts to oversimplify what I've said, and to knock out everything based on knocking out one portion, I've actually given you a very well written piece that takes care of BOTH sides of the ruller componant:
1. The branch of Jesse metaphor
2. The "David" metaphor

You cannot get around the fact that the messiah is described as BOTH, and that both are rulers/judges.

Let me ask you, tell me what IS David, if he is not the King of Israel from Jerusalem's throne? Go ahead. I'm listening. This should be interesting. Tell me what the historical David is.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Do you even understand that nobody interprets these prophecies the same way? If everyone interpreted them the same way, then all Christians and Jews would be in complete agreement. This is logic 101 stuff.

I'll grant you that there is wiggle room. Heck, two Jews, three opinions.

But that is not to say that all interpretations are on the same equal level. Some interpretations are sensible, and others are out in left field. Some are worthy of my respect, and others are a hand slap to the forehead.

 

[wizanda]

It says, "He will judge between the nations." Obviously this is something he is doing during his lifetime. He can't do it if he is dead. Therefore the second part of the verse, beating swords into plowshares and nation not lifting up sword against nation, is during that same period, during his lifetime.

Isaiah 2:2 uses the term 'latter days', this is after everything else is fulfilled; once God has removed the Rephaim (Isaiah 17:4-6).

The beating of the weapons into farming tools is explain in Ezekiel 39:9, after the Battle of Armageddon, and the Great Tribulation.

Then shall the nations no longer learn war, as we've finally learned after; once mankind is gone, and God resurrects the Enlightened Saints (Isaiah 26:19).

In my opinion.

 

[Trailblazer]

Hi Trailblazer. Good to see you again. Not sure if you do Thanksgiving, but if you do, hope you had a great and thankful holiday.

It would have been better if I had not had a very bad cold which came on the DAY of Thanksgiving. I have not had a cold in about 5 years, great timing.... I struggled through it though. I hope your holiday was good.

It says, "He will judge between the nations." Obviously this is something he is doing during his lifetime. He can't do it if he is dead.

I fully agree, he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people happened during the lifetime of Baha’u’llah.

Therefore the second part of the verse, beating swords into plowshares and nation not lifting up sword against nation, is during that same period, during his lifetime.

Why do you assume that? The verse does not SAY that. In fact it says they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Note the word “they.” It does not say “he.” It says nothing about the Messiah

As the RESULT of Baha’u’llah judging among the nations and rebuking many people THEY (the peoples of the world) will beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall THEY learn war any more. Note that there is no time frame on any of that.

You need to be reasonable. You are doing logical backflips in order to make this gel with your preconceived notions.

No, that is what you are doing, trying to make the prophecy FIT with Jewish expectations. By contrast, I am just reading what that prophecy actually SAYS.

You do acknowldge, don't you, that there is more than one messianic prophecy??? You have to accept the prophecies that the Messiah is "David" (meaning that he will rule as King), and (even in Isaiah 2) he will judge between the nations.

Of course there is more than one Messianic prophecy. No, I do not have to accept that the Messiah is David, meaning he will rule as an earthly King; that is a Jewish belief. No Christian will ever accept it either.There is NO REASON to think the Messiah would be an earthly ruler, like a King. The Messiah is a divine personage. He does not get involved with earthly affairs. Baha’u’llah gave humans the necessary instructions on how we can to establish world peace. Humans will have to carry out those instructions.

I'm sorry, but the Baha'u'llah did NOT do that. He did not negotiate major peace agreements between countries on the verge of war, for example. Advocating the League of Nations just doesn't rise to the occasion.

There is absolutely NO REASON to think that the Messiah would negotiate any peace agreements like an earthly ruler. That is all you projecting YOUR expectations onto these prophecies but it is not written in ANY prophecy.

You are seeking to limit the prophecy. The prophecy is worldwide. He will guide all the nations, and peace will be between all the nations.

That is absolutely true, the prophecy is worldwide and peace will be between all the nations. But nowhere in that prophecy does it SAY the he (the Messiah) will guide all the nations. The only thing that the Messiah will do is “judge among the nations, and rebuke many people.” Baha’u’llah did that in His Writings.

And sir, that just hasn't happened yet. No contender for the title of messiah has accomplished this.

Nowhere in that prophecy, or any prophecy, does it SAY that the Messiah will bring about world peace HIMSELF. That is all you projecting YOUR expectations onto these prophecies.

Again, nowhere is there any time frame on this prophecy, or any other prophecies. This is just you projecting YOUR expectations onto this prophecy. Anyone can do that, and many Christians also do it, but there are no dates given.

Nor have things even been moving in this direction. Indeed, the 20th century saw things go to hell with WWI and WWII not to mention the use of nuclear weapons and chemical warfare. IOW they went from bad to worse.

There is NO REASON to think it would not get worse before it gets better. The darkest hour is right before the dawn. It could have gotten better, as the Most Great Peace could have come if the kings and rulers of the 19th century had heeded the call of Baha’u’llah, but since they all rejected Him, it got worse, and Baha’u’llah thus wrote that the world would have to settle from what he called “the Lesser Peace” which is a political peace, until a future time when the Most Great Peace will be established.

Says who?

Jewish scholars, who not only have been at this for a thousand years longer than Christian scholars, but who preserve the original understanding.

No, I beg to differ with that. With all due respect, the Jews have been completely wrong about the Messiah from day one. Jesus was the Messiah. Although He was never slated to be the Messiah that would bring the OT prophecies to fulfillment on earth and usher in world peace, Jesus prepared the way Baha’u’llah, who would complete the work of Jesus. Jesus spiritualized humanity and readied them for the Coming of the Messiah of the latter days who would bring the Kingdom of God to earth.

“The Book of Isaiah announces that the Messiah will conquer the East and the West, and all nations of the world will come under His shadow, that His Kingdom will be established, that He will come from an unknown place, that the sinners will be judged, and that justice will prevail to such a degree that the wolf and the lamb, the leopard and the kid, the sucking child and the asp, shall all gather at one spring, and in one meadow, and one dwelling. 4 The first coming was also under these conditions, though outwardly none of them came to pass. Therefore, the Jews rejected Christ, and, God forbid! called the Messiah masíkh, 5 considered Him to be the destroyer of the edifice of God, regarded Him as the breaker of the Sabbath and the Law, and sentenced Him to death. Nevertheless, each one of these conditions had a signification that the Jews did not understand; therefore, they were debarred from perceiving the truth of Christ.

The second coming of Christ also will be in like manner: the signs and conditions which have been spoken of all have meanings, and are not to be taken literally.” Some Answered Questions, p. 111

I hate badmouthing Christianity because I find Christians to be decent people. But basically, yeah, Christianity takes the Tanakh and twists it out of recognition. They:
1. Take verses out of obvious context, i.e. Hosea 11:1
2. Deliberately mistranslate verses to make them messianic, i.e. Isaiah 7:14.
3. Change entire phrases to make verses more messianic, i.e. Hebrews 10:5 compare to Psalm 40:6)
4. In one instance, create an imaginary verse out of whole cloth: Matthew 27:9-19
If they are going to so butcher my beloved scriptures, why should I have any respect for their opinions or their faith?

I will not even pretend to know what Hosea11 refers to. However, I believe that Isaiah 7:14 refers to Jesus.

Isaiah 7:14 Therefore, the Lord, of His own, shall give you a sign; behold, the young woman is with child, and she shall bear a son, and she shall call his name Immanuel.

I won’t pretend to know what Hebrews 10 means; are objecting to the body of Jesus being offered as a sacrifice for sin? If so, I agree, because Baha’is do not believe in “original sin” or that Jesus atoned for it.

I do not know what you think the Christians did to Matthew 27:9-19?

Baha’u’llah did this during His lifetime, so He fulfilled the prophecy. He judged among the nations

Ah, come on. He did not do this on a world scale. He did not bring nations to the table.

AGAIN, there are NO VERSES that SAY that the Messiah would bring nations to the table like a judge! There are many translations of that verse and the following is most accurate. As a result of what Bahaullah wrote, arguments among nations will be settled, and after that the rest of the verse will be fulfilled.

Isaiah 2:4 (NCV) He will settle arguments among the nations and will make decisions for many nations. Then they will make their swords into plows and their spears into hooks for trimming trees. Nations will no longer fight other nations, nor will they train for war anymore.

Writing books is not the same thing. Any person with a pen and paper can write a book. Nothing he had power behind it. Where was his court to hear cases? Where were the consequences for those who refused to comply?

Not the same thing as what? Where in any prophecies does it SAY the Messiah would have a court and hear cases and that there would be consequences for those who refused to comply?

With all due respect, the Jews have concocted a fantasy Messiah just as the Christians have concocted a fantasy Messiah. Christians should have accepted that Jesus was a Messiah and that He completed His mission on earth, and then He died on the cross and his soul ascended to heaven to be with the Father. But no, they had to write stories bringing Jesus back from the dead and after that things went from bad to worse, because they then believed that Jesus ascended into the clouds,and that He would return from heaven on the clouds. The fantasy they entertain is that the same man Jesus is coming back to build the Kingdom of God on earth, which is NOT supported by any Bible verses. Nowhere in the NT dis Jesus promise to return to earth. In fact, Jesus said his work was finished here and He was no more in the world (John 17:4, 11). The Son of Man coming in the clouds does not refer to Jesus, it refers to Baha’u’llah. That’s is why it is written in the third person, not the first person.

(Continued on next post)

 

[Trailblazer]

You have to ask yourself how much of Judah qualifies to be identified as Judah. A tenth? a fourth? a half? No. I would say all or close to all. Right now only close to half the Jews of the world live in Israel. It simply doesn't fulfill the prophecy.

You can say all or close to all, but the prophecy does not SAY that. There is NO reason to think that all or close to all the Jews in the world are going to want to move to Israel. The scattered Jews have already returned to Israel so that fulfills the prophecy, although more Jews might continue to move there.

The law of return uses a different standard than Jewish law. The law of return seeks to protect those who were targeted by the nazis. Well Hitler didn't have a really good idea who was actually a Jew and labeled as Jews many who clearly were not. The law of return similarly allows aliyah to many non-Jews such as Christians who have Jewish grandparents. According to Jewish law, a Jew is someone who is born of a Jewish mother, or who is adopted into the tribe by going through a halakhic conversion (like Ruth in the Bible). In this manner, there is no such thing as someone who is 1/2 Jewish or part Jewish. You are either a Jew or you are not -- either part of the tribe or you are not.

It is hard to gage, but there are approximately 14.7 million Jews in the world. As you quoted, 30% live in Israel. 51% live in the US. Clearly not "all or close to all" have returned to Israel.

AGAIN, there is nothing in any prophecy that SAYS all or close to all Jews are going to return to Israel.

It's not going to happen any time soon, and the nation of Israel will be considerably larger. How that will happen is anyone's guess. In OUR time, I'm for a two state solution. But I can't predict how things will be 500 years from now. All sorts of things can happen. Who would have predicted in 1900 that Israel would even have been back on the map?

So you think that Israel will become larger just so all the Jews in the world can live there? What reason do you have to think that all the Jews in the world would even want to live in Israel, or does free will matter?

Genealogy of Bahaullah Genealogy of The Báb and Bahá'u'lláh

According to the link you gave, your faith makes a claim that the Baha'u'llah was descended from Jesse/David. However, you make no genealogical tree available to be examined. IOW, it's a claim just sort of made up out of whole cloth, with no evidence provided. Sorry, you don't really expect me to believe something like that do you? We on the other hand actually have real Jews that have their papers intact, preserving, generation by generating, their lineage.

Someone probably has that information and some of the other Baha’is might know how to access it.

Despite your attempts to oversimplify what I've said, and to knock out everything based on knocking out one portion, I've actually given you a very well written piece that takes care of BOTH sides of the ruller componant:
1. The branch of Jesse metaphor
2. The "David" metaphor

You cannot get around the fact that the messiah is described as BOTH, and that both are rulers/judges.

Baha’u’llah was a ruler and a judge, but not in the earthly SENSE, the way you think a King would rule and judge.

Let me ask you, tell me what IS David, if he is not the King of Israel from Jerusalem's throne? Go ahead. I'm listening. This should be interesting. Tell me what the historical David is.

I am not going to do that. I do not pretend to be very familiar with the Bible, let alone the Tanakh. You are familiar with the Tanakh so why don’t you tell me?

Let’s just say that David is the King of Israel from Jerusalem's throne. What makes you think that David is the Messiah?What verse(s) SAY that David IS the Messiah?I need actual verses to look at so I can interpret them.

I get into this discussion about Jesus ruling on the throne of David with Christians all the time; I am sure you have also been in such discussions with Christians.Christians will cite the following verse that they says proves that Jesus will rule on the throne of David when He returns.

Luke 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

I believe this verse refers to Jesus so I could not figure out how to reconcile it to Baha’i beliefs because we believe that Baha’u’llah is ruling on the throne of David, but lo and behold, recently I found a chapter in the Baha’i Writings that reconciles this:

THE TRUE MEANING OF THE PROPHECIES CONCERNING THE COMING OF CHRIST

“In the Bible there are prophecies of the coming of Christ. The Jews still await the coming of the Messiah, and pray to God day and night to hasten His advent…….

The Throne upon which He sat is the Eternal Throne from which Christ reigns for ever, a heavenly throne, not an earthly one, for the things of earth pass away but heavenly things pass not away. He re-interpreted and completed the Law of Moses and fulfilled the Law of the Prophets. His word conquered the East and the West. His Kingdom is everlasting. He exalted those Jews who recognized Him. They were men and women of humble birth, but contact with Him made them great and gave them everlasting dignity. The animals who were to live with one another signified the different sects and races, who, once having been at war, were now to dwell in love and charity, drinking together the water of life from Christ the Eternal Spring.

Thus, all the spiritual prophecies concerning the coming of Christ were fulfilled, but the Jews shut their eyes that they should not see, and their ears that they should not hear, and the Divine Reality of Christ passed through their midst unheard, unloved and unrecognized.” Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks, pp. 54-56

Now, as the return of Christ, Baha’u’llah is sitting on the throne of David and ruling over earth. He does not have to “physically” be here in order to do that, not any more than Moses has to physically be here for Jews to follow the teachings and laws of Moses.

“THE Most Great Law is come, and the Ancient Beauty ruleth upon the throne of David. Thus hath My Pen spoken that which the histories of bygone ages have related. At this time, however, David crieth aloud and saith: ‘O my loving Lord! Do Thou number me with such as have stood steadfast in Thy Cause, O Thou through Whom the faces have been illumined, and the footsteps have slipped!’” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 89-90

“The time foreordained unto the peoples and kindreds of the earth is now come. The promises of God, as recorded in the holy Scriptures, have all been fulfilled. Out of Zion hath gone forth the Law of God, and Jerusalem, and the hills and land thereof, are filled with the glory of His Revelation. Happy is the man that pondereth in his heart that which hath been revealed in the Books of God, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting. Meditate upon this, O ye beloved of God, and let your ears be attentive unto His Word, so that ye may, by His grace and mercy, drink your fill from the crystal waters of constancy, and become as steadfast and immovable as the mountain in His Cause.

In the Book of Isaiah it is written: “Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of His majesty.” No man that meditateth upon this verse can fail to recognize the greatness of this Cause, or doubt the exalted character of this Day—the Day of God Himself. This same verse is followed by these words: “And the Lord alone shall be exalted in that Day.” This is the Day which the Pen of the Most High hath glorified in all the holy Scriptures.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 12-13

 

[Trailblazer]

I'll grant you that there is wiggle room. Heck, two Jews, three opinions.

But that is not to say that all interpretations are on the same equal level. Some interpretations are sensible, and others are out in left field. Some are worthy of my respect, and others are a hand slap to the forehead.

If they do not align with what Jews believe about the Messiah as King David then you will consider them incorrect, just like the Christians will consider any interpretation incorrect if it does not have the same man Jesus as the Messiah.

Is there anywhere for a Baha’i, who believes Baha’u’llah was the Messiah, to go in a discussion with either Jews or Christians if they already have their minds made up?

 

[wizanda]

Is there anywhere for a Baha’i, who believes Baha’u’llah was the Messiah, to go in a discussion with either Jews or Christians if they already have their minds made up?

Yes there is a solution for a Baha'i to do - If we accept Baha'u'llah said another Messiah would come, and the One to come is greater than he, with a special name that unites the religions, thus establishing the goal to teach Oneness to the world.

"How great the blessedness that awaiteth the king who will arise to aid My Cause in My kingdom, who will detach himself from all else but Me! Such a king is numbered with the companions of the Crimson Ark--the Ark which God hath prepared for the people of Bahá. All must glorify his name, must reverence his station, and aid him to unlock the cities with the keys of My Name ('Zion'), the omnipotent Protector of all that inhabit the visible and invisible kingdoms. Such a king is the very eye of mankind, the luminous ornament on the brow of creation, the fountainhead of blessings unto the whole world. Offer up, O people of Bahá, your substance, nay your very lives, for his assistance." - (Bahá'u'lláh, Kitáb-i-Aqdas, 1873)

Literally we can prove this is about me, when we look at all of the world's religious texts as One, and I was told this at 4-5 years old - Benjamin Creme even prophesied correctly I'd be born in 1977, UK.

Thus for a Baha'i to establish prophecy to bring in world peace, they are meant to accept the One to come...

The prophecy of wait for one thousand years makes no sense, as we do not have that long left on earth, if we do not establish a theocracy on earth first.

In my opinion.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

It would have been better if I had not had a very bad cold which came on the DAY of Thanksgiving. I have not had a cold in about 5 years, great timing.... I struggled through it though. I hope your holiday was good.

I fully agree, he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people happened during the lifetime of Baha’u’llah.

Why do you assume that? The verse does not SAY that. In fact it says they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Note the word “they.” It does not say “he.” It says nothing about the Messiah

As the RESULT of Baha’u’llah judging among the nations and rebuking many people THEY (the peoples of the world) will beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall THEY learn war any more. Note that there is no time frame on any of that.

No, that is what you are doing, trying to make the prophecy FIT with Jewish expectations. By contrast, I am just reading what that prophecy actually SAYS.

Of course there is more than one Messianic prophecy. No, I do not have to accept that the Messiah is David, meaning he will rule as an earthly King; that is a Jewish belief. No Christian will ever accept it either.There is NO REASON to think the Messiah would be an earthly ruler, like a King. The Messiah is a divine personage. He does not get involved with earthly affairs. Baha’u’llah gave humans the necessary instructions on how we can to establish world peace. Humans will have to carry out those instructions.

There is absolutely NO REASON to think that the Messiah would negotiate any peace agreements like an earthly ruler. That is all you projecting YOUR expectations onto these prophecies but it is not written in ANY prophecy.

That is absolutely true, the prophecy is worldwide and peace will be between all the nations. But nowhere in that prophecy does it SAY the he (the Messiah) will guide all the nations. The only thing that the Messiah will do is “judge among the nations, and rebuke many people.” Baha’u’llah did that in His Writings.

Nowhere in that prophecy, or any prophecy, does it SAY that the Messiah will bring about world peace HIMSELF. That is all you projecting YOUR expectations onto these prophecies.

Again, nowhere is there any time frame on this prophecy, or any other prophecies. This is just you projecting YOUR expectations onto this prophecy. Anyone can do that, and many Christians also do it, but there are no dates given.

There is NO REASON to think it would not get worse before it gets better. The darkest hour is right before the dawn. It could have gotten better, as the Most Great Peace could have come if the kings and rulers of the 19th century had heeded the call of Baha’u’llah, but since they all rejected Him, it got worse, and Baha’u’llah thus wrote that the world would have to settle from what he called “the Lesser Peace” which is a political peace, until a future time when the Most Great Peace will be established.

No, I beg to differ with that. With all due respect, the Jews have been completely wrong about the Messiah from day one. Jesus was the Messiah. Although He was never slated to be the Messiah that would bring the OT prophecies to fulfillment on earth and usher in world peace, Jesus prepared the way Baha’u’llah, who would complete the work of Jesus. Jesus spiritualized humanity and readied them for the Coming of the Messiah of the latter days who would bring the Kingdom of God to earth.

“The Book of Isaiah announces that the Messiah will conquer the East and the West, and all nations of the world will come under His shadow, that His Kingdom will be established, that He will come from an unknown place, that the sinners will be judged, and that justice will prevail to such a degree that the wolf and the lamb, the leopard and the kid, the sucking child and the asp, shall all gather at one spring, and in one meadow, and one dwelling. 4 The first coming was also under these conditions, though outwardly none of them came to pass. Therefore, the Jews rejected Christ, and, God forbid! called the Messiah masíkh, 5 considered Him to be the destroyer of the edifice of God, regarded Him as the breaker of the Sabbath and the Law, and sentenced Him to death. Nevertheless, each one of these conditions had a signification that the Jews did not understand; therefore, they were debarred from perceiving the truth of Christ.

The second coming of Christ also will be in like manner: the signs and conditions which have been spoken of all have meanings, and are not to be taken literally.” Some Answered Questions, p. 111

I will not even pretend to know what Hosea11 refers to. However, I believe that Isaiah 7:14 refers to Jesus.

Isaiah 7:14 Therefore, the Lord, of His own, shall give you a sign; behold, the young woman is with child, and she shall bear a son, and she shall call his name Immanuel.

I won’t pretend to know what Hebrews 10 means; are objecting to the body of Jesus being offered as a sacrifice for sin? If so, I agree, because Baha’is do not believe in “original sin” or that Jesus atoned for it.

I do not know what you think the Christians did to Matthew 27:9-19?

AGAIN, there are NO VERSES that SAY that the Messiah would bring nations to the table like a judge! There are many translations of that verse and the following is most accurate. As a result of what Bahaullah wrote, arguments among nations will be settled, and after that the rest of the verse will be fulfilled.

Isaiah 2:4 (NCV) He will settle arguments among the nations and will make decisions for many nations. Then they will make their swords into plows and their spears into hooks for trimming trees. Nations will no longer fight other nations, nor will they train for war anymore.

Not the same thing as what? Where in any prophecies does it SAY the Messiah would have a court and hear cases and that there would be consequences for those who refused to comply?

With all due respect, the Jews have concocted a fantasy Messiah just as the Christians have concocted a fantasy Messiah. Christians should have accepted that Jesus was a Messiah and that He completed His mission on earth, and then He died on the cross and his soul ascended to heaven to be with the Father. But no, they had to write stories bringing Jesus back from the dead and after that things went from bad to worse, because they then believed that Jesus ascended into the clouds,and that He would return from heaven on the clouds. The fantasy they entertain is that the same man Jesus is coming back to build the Kingdom of God on earth, which is NOT supported by any Bible verses. Nowhere in the NT dis Jesus promise to return to earth. In fact, Jesus said his work was finished here and He was no more in the world (John 17:4, 11). The Son of Man coming in the clouds does not refer to Jesus, it refers to Baha’u’llah. That’s is why it is written in the third person, not the first person.

(Continued on next post)

The beating of swords into plowshares immediately follows the judging of the nations -- in other words it is the effect, the consequence of the judging. It directly follows as the result.

You say that the Baha'u'llah judged in a book? I say that is an impotent messiah. It's completely worthless. It accomplished nothing. There is no teeth in that. A thousand people have done this. Are they all the messiah?

To mean anything, there must be a court where cases are heard, and power to enforce the judgments. These judgments must be recognized by all parties. Now THAT is a messiah.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

You can say all or close to all, but the prophecy does not SAY that. There is NO reason to think that all or close to all the Jews in the world are going to want to move to Israel. The scattered Jews have already returned to Israel so that fulfills the prophecy, although more Jews might continue to move there.

AGAIN, there is nothing in any prophecy that SAYS all or close to all Jews are going to return to Israel.

So you think that Israel will become larger just so all the Jews in the world can live there? What reason do you have to think that all the Jews in the world would even want to live in Israel, or does free will matter?

Someone probably has that information and some of the other Baha’is might know how to access it.

Baha’u’llah was a ruler and a judge, but not in the earthly SENSE, the way you think a King would rule and judge.

I am not going to do that. I do not pretend to be very familiar with the Bible, let alone the Tanakh. You are familiar with the Tanakh so why don’t you tell me?

Let’s just say that David is the King of Israel from Jerusalem's throne. What makes you think that David is the Messiah?What verse(s) SAY that David IS the Messiah?I need actual verses to look at so I can interpret them.

I get into this discussion about Jesus ruling on the throne of David with Christians all the time; I am sure you have also been in such discussions with Christians.Christians will cite the following verse that they says proves that Jesus will rule on the throne of David when He returns.

Luke 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

I believe this verse refers to Jesus so I could not figure out how to reconcile it to Baha’i beliefs because we believe that Baha’u’llah is ruling on the throne of David, but lo and behold, recently I found a chapter in the Baha’i Writings that reconciles this:

THE TRUE MEANING OF THE PROPHECIES CONCERNING THE COMING OF CHRIST

“In the Bible there are prophecies of the coming of Christ. The Jews still await the coming of the Messiah, and pray to God day and night to hasten His advent…….

The Throne upon which He sat is the Eternal Throne from which Christ reigns for ever, a heavenly throne, not an earthly one, for the things of earth pass away but heavenly things pass not away. He re-interpreted and completed the Law of Moses and fulfilled the Law of the Prophets. His word conquered the East and the West. His Kingdom is everlasting. He exalted those Jews who recognized Him. They were men and women of humble birth, but contact with Him made them great and gave them everlasting dignity. The animals who were to live with one another signified the different sects and races, who, once having been at war, were now to dwell in love and charity, drinking together the water of life from Christ the Eternal Spring.

Thus, all the spiritual prophecies concerning the coming of Christ were fulfilled, but the Jews shut their eyes that they should not see, and their ears that they should not hear, and the Divine Reality of Christ passed through their midst unheard, unloved and unrecognized.” Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks, pp. 54-56

Now, as the return of Christ, Baha’u’llah is sitting on the throne of David and ruling over earth. He does not have to “physically” be here in order to do that, not any more than Moses has to physically be here for Jews to follow the teachings and laws of Moses.

“THE Most Great Law is come, and the Ancient Beauty ruleth upon the throne of David. Thus hath My Pen spoken that which the histories of bygone ages have related. At this time, however, David crieth aloud and saith: ‘O my loving Lord! Do Thou number me with such as have stood steadfast in Thy Cause, O Thou through Whom the faces have been illumined, and the footsteps have slipped!’” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 89-90

“The time foreordained unto the peoples and kindreds of the earth is now come. The promises of God, as recorded in the holy Scriptures, have all been fulfilled. Out of Zion hath gone forth the Law of God, and Jerusalem, and the hills and land thereof, are filled with the glory of His Revelation. Happy is the man that pondereth in his heart that which hath been revealed in the Books of God, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting. Meditate upon this, O ye beloved of God, and let your ears be attentive unto His Word, so that ye may, by His grace and mercy, drink your fill from the crystal waters of constancy, and become as steadfast and immovable as the mountain in His Cause.

In the Book of Isaiah it is written: “Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of His majesty.” No man that meditateth upon this verse can fail to recognize the greatness of this Cause, or doubt the exalted character of this Day—the Day of God Himself. This same verse is followed by these words: “And the Lord alone shall be exalted in that Day.” This is the Day which the Pen of the Most High hath glorified in all the holy Scriptures.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 12-13

I'm sorry, but a mere 30% of us Jews just don't qualify to be called the Jews. It just doesn't fulfill prophecy.

Again, judging in a heavenly sense accomplishes nothing real. It's an impotent messiahship.

If you don't know who David is, and what it means to be David, how can you know what the prophecy means, and if it is fulfilled? Perhaps you should pay more attention to what I'm saying.

David was the second King of Israel. He united all the tribes in one Kingdom, and moved the Capital city to Jerusalem. He wrote many of the Psalms. So those are the things he is remembered for, and when the Messiah is called David, it is basically saying the messiah is those things:
1. King of Israel, uniting the Jews
2. Ruling from Jerusalem
3. A "man after God's own heart."
Thus, anyone who is not those things cannot be said to be like David, cannot be fulfilling the metaphor, and thus is not the messiah.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

If they do not align with what Jews believe about the Messiah as King David then you will consider them incorrect, just like the Christians will consider any interpretation incorrect if it does not have the same man Jesus as the Messiah.

Is there anywhere for a Baha’i, who believes Baha’u’llah was the Messiah, to go in a discussion with either Jews or Christians if they already have their minds made up?

As far as your doctrine goes, no not really. But that's to be expected in a debate forum.

That doesn't mean your not loved. As I've always said, what really matters to me is if a person loves God and is obedient to him. Baha'is are good peoples.

 

[Trailblazer]

The beating of swords into plowshares immediately follows the judging of the nations -- in other words it is the effect, the consequence of the judging. It directly follows as the result.

Where does the prophecy SAY that it immediately follows the judging of the nations, that it is the consequence of the judging, and that it directly follows as the result? I hope you realize that you are projecting your own expectations onto the prophecy.

In short, you are adding to what is written, you are filling in the blanks. If any of these prophecies were meant to have time frames that would be specified in the prophecy. “Then” does not mean immediately following the judging. It just means that these events come in a sequence.

You say that the Baha'u'llah judged in a book? I say that is an impotent messiah.

Baha’u’llah also did a lot of judging of kings, rulers and ecclesiastics in person, not just in His Writings. I do not know what makes you think that the Messiah would be able to bring all these various factions to the table and they would all agree. That is magical thinking. Do you know anything about human nature and history? I think you do.

It's completely worthless. It accomplished nothing.

It has accomplished a lot because the Baha’is are carrying forward an ever-advancing civilization as the result of what Baha’u’llah wrote. It is a process. This is not going to happen overnight. A whole civilization that became corrupt over thousands of years does not get rebuilt in 150 years. That is irrational.

If you believe that the Messiah is going to appear and make everything right all by himself you are no different from the Christians who believe that Jesus is going to fix everything as soon as He comes down out of the clouds.

There is no teeth in that. A thousand people have done this. Are they all the messiah?

No, of course not, but they were just men, they were not Manifestations of God. Therein lies the difference.

The Baha’i belief is that Baha’u’llah was a Manifestation of God, not just an ordinary man... If He had not been more than an ordinary man there would be absolutely no reason to believe He had the power to change the world.

Manifestations of God possess two stations: one is the physical station pertaining to the world of matter, and the others is the spiritual station, born of the substance of God. In other words, one station is that of a human being, and one, of the Divine Reality. It is because they possess both a human and a divine station and that is why they can act as *mediators* between God and man.

Every Manifestation of God is a mirror of God, reflecting God’s Self, God’s Beauty, God’s Might and Glory. All other human beings are to be regarded as mirrors capable of reflecting the glory of these Manifestations Who are themselves the Primary Mirrors of the Divine Being,

The Manifestations of God are another order of creation above an ordinary man. They possess a universal divine mind that is different than ours and that is why God only speaks to them directly and through Them God communicates to humanity.

To mean anything, there must be a court where cases are heard, and power to enforce the judgments. These judgments must be recognized by all parties. Now THAT is a messiah.

How do you think an ordinary man, an earthly king, can change the entire world, judge between nations, and put an end to war? Has any king ever done that?

All of this is your own idea of what a Messiah will do and it is based upon the belief that the Messiah will be like an earthly king. The Messiah is more than a man; He is a Manifestation of God and that is why His Word has the power to change the world, when His followers carry out His blueprint instructions. Of course, this is somewhat similar to a Christian belief, since Christians believe that Jesus had that kind of power. I understand that Jews do not have that kind of belief about Moses; you believe he was a Prophet, but had no divine nature, right?

 

[Trailblazer]

I'm sorry, but a mere 30% of us Jews just don't qualify to be called the Jews. It just doesn't fulfill prophecy.

Let’s look at the prophecy again.

Isaiah 11:12
He will raise a banner for the nations and gather the exiles of Israel;
he will assemble the scattered people of Judah from the four quarters of the earth.

That prophecy says nothing about how many Jews will return to Israel. The prophecy has been fulfilled because the scattered people of Judah have returned to Israel from the four quarters of the earth.

JERUSALEM, Israel – Nearly 70 years before the rebirth of the modern State of Israel, the Jewish people began to return to their ancient homeland, as the prophets foretold. And they're still coming.

It's called 'aliyah' – literally 'going up.' Taken from biblical times, the term describes the Israelites going up to Jerusalem to worship at the Temple. Today, it means immigrating or returning to Israel.

They come from all over the world to a place many have never been. Yet the Jewish people have longed to return to this land for thousands of years........

Biblical prophets Isaiah, Jeremiah and Ezekiel, among others, all spoke of a time when God would bring the Jewish people back to the Land of Israel. Amos said they'll never be dispersed again.

"I will also plant them on their land, and they will not again be rooted out from their land which I have given them," says the Lord your God." (Amos 9:15, NASB)

'Gathering of the Exiles': After Thousands of Years, Jews Come Home to Israel​

The prophecy continues to be fulfilled as more and more Jews return to Israel.

“Recent Jewish population dynamics are characterized by continued steady increase in the Israeli Jewish population and flat or declining numbers in other countries (the diaspora). The Jewish population of Israel increased from the country's inception in 1948 to 6,135,000 in 2014[11] while the population of the diaspora has dropped from 10.5 to 8.1 million over the same period.[4] ”
Jewish population by country - Wikipedia​

If you don't know who David is, and what it means to be David, how can you know what the prophecy means, and if it is fulfilled? Perhaps you should pay more attention to what I'm saying.

What prophecy are you referring to? I cannot do anything without seeing the actual verses.

David was the second King of Israel. He united all the tribes in one Kingdom, and moved the Capital city to Jerusalem. He wrote many of the Psalms. So those are the things he is remembered for, and when the Messiah is called David, it is basically saying the messiah is those things:
1. King of Israel, uniting the Jews
2. Ruling from Jerusalem
3. A "man after God's own heart."
Thus, anyone who is not those things cannot be said to be like David, cannot be fulfilling the metaphor, and thus is not the messiah.

Again, I cannot do anything without seeing the actual verses. You make so many assumptions about the Messiah and who he will be and what he will do.

It is notable that all the major religions are waiting for a Messiah who will fulfill the prophecies in their scriptures:

Prophecy Fulfilled Webpage
Prophecies from World Religion and other sources

It is a Baha’i belief that the Messiah is universal; he is not just coming to unite and rule over the Jews, he is coming to unite and rule over the whole world.

Isaiah 11:6-9 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.

What this means to a Baha’i is that In the future diverse religions and races will become comrades, friends and companions. The contentions of races, the differences of religions, and the barriers between nations will be completely removed, and all will attain perfect union and reconciliation. Eventually, there will be only one religion, the religion of God.

So, to be universal, the Messiah would have to fulfill the prophecies of all the religions, not just the ones in the Tanakh.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Where does the prophecy SAY that it immediately follows the judging of the nations, that it is the consequence of the judging, and that it directly follows as the result?

One verse follows the other. It's the sequence of events.

Baha’u’llah also did a lot of judging of kings, rulers and ecclesiastics in person, not just in His Writings.

Nothing so worthy that it gets mentioned in history books.

As to your claim that the messiah is a manifestation of God, I say to you the same thing that I say to Christians -- this is blasphemy. God is not a tree or rock or idol or man.

Basically I say to you, process schmocess. The messiah will not be like any other man (and not because he is a manifestation of God) -- because of what he accomplishes. He will utterly amaze. This is why all the nations of the world will grant him authority of their own will. There has never been another ruler like him in history. We have seen amazing diplomats that have done these things on a small scale. He will do these things on a worldwide scale.