It indeed can be a different type of argument. Are we more than a material being!
Regards Tony
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What will the Second Coming of Christ look like?
- Thread starter loverofhumanity
- Start date
It indeed can be a different type of argument. Are we more than a material being!
Regards Tony
We've not got one thousand years left, we have 5 years left according to environmentalist, before environmental crisis, and about 10 before possible human extinction from WW3; Yeshua said expect the final Messiah before the Great Tribulation, at the time you do not expect it.
Plus even with my limited knowledge of Baha'i writings, I've seen it stated watch for the One to come before the Great Tribulation numerous times...
Baha'u'llah warned not to cause the World Wars that lead to the Great Tribulation; I'm here before it, so far online many of the Baha'i have declared God is wrong in all writings.
Personally can see why it says we're kicking people out of reality after this happens, as we're going to hold many who kept us arguing over identity, with the charge of the accessory to the murder of humanity.
If you're not bothered to even listen to me repeating Baha'i writings for you where it shows it, and all of the other religious prophecies in texts globally we've cited many times.
It makes it silly for me to walk into a trap, as you're not even looking for an answer you're looking to argue with accusative qualities, that are not a good way to be...
Go study what has been said, be a real Baha'i, go understand why the World Religious texts speak of us, and then help us establish Oneness here on earth, otherwise quit pretending, please.
May the Source of reality Bless you in Wisdom.
In my opinion.
sooda
Veteran Member
We've not got one thousand years left, we have 5 years left according to environmentalist, before environmental crisis, and about 10 before possible human extinction from WW3; Yeshua said expect the final Messiah before the Great Tribulation, at the time you do not expect it.
Plus even with my limited knowledge of Baha'i writings, I've seen it stated watch for the One to come before the Great Tribulation numerous times...
Baha'u'llah warned not to cause the World Wars that lead to the Great Tribulation; I'm here before it, so far online many of the Baha'i have declared God is wrong in all writings.
Personally can see why it says we're kicking people out of reality after this happens, as we're going to hold many who kept us arguing over identity, with the charge of the accessory to the murder of humanity.
If you're not bothered to even listen to me repeating Baha'i writings for you where it shows it, and all of the other religious prophecies in texts globally we've cited many times.
It makes it silly for me to walk into a trap, as you're not even looking for an answer you're looking to argue with accusative qualities, that are not a good way to be...
Go study what has been said, be a real Baha'i, go understand why the World Religious texts speak of us, and then help us establish Oneness here on earth, otherwise quit pretending, please.
May the Source of reality Bless you in Wisdom.
In my opinion.
There was only one tribulation ...
PearlSeeker
Well-Known Member
There are many interpretations. I don't know which one is correct. I can only tell what is the most plausible to me after some consideration.
Christ (Messiah, the anointed one) is not a name. It's a title (anointed we're prophets, priests and kings). And there is a hope for a messianic age - "the Kingdom of God". The prophets announced this "kingdom" that will be fulfilled as peace, unity and God's full presence in the world. Jesus proclaimed "the Kingdom is at hand" and "the Kingdom is between/within you." In him it was already fulfilled and present. But he also called people to (let God) change our hearts so we can enter the Kingdom or better God's fuller presence can enter our world through us. Annointment/kingdom is not just Jesus but it's meant for all - mass annointment and enlightment. "I gave you an example." That's why some interpret Christ as Christ consciousness. "We have the mind of Christ."
Finally "all will know God." This is the second coming of Christ. Not one Christ but Christ in all.
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Yes, I believe in the kingdom of God and that it will be established on earth.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Old Badger and I have asked about what the world will be like under Baha'i rule, but Baha'is have said that Baha'is will not rule? That each nation will have its own government? Why? If the Baha'i Faith is found to be the truth, and the majority of people believe it, why wouldn't the Baha'i administrative order rule each locality, each nation, and the UHJ govern the world? If "God's" laws are what's needed to bring peace and harmony, then how can they not be universally applied to everyone? Especially if Baha'i become the majority? They will be able to vote in laws and people that will follow the Baha'i laws anyway. So why would there be a need for a separate "secular" government?
In a situation which is envisioned by Baha’u’llah where everyone becomes a Baha’i then it would of course become a Baha’i State.
When the victory arriveth, every man shall profess himself as believer and shall hasten to the shelter of God’s Faith. (Baha’u’llah’
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
if he had actually accomplished something substantial, such as judging between the nations, or being an effective dipolmat of incredible peace, secular historians would have no problem in noting his achievements. But he just didn't cut the mustard. The only place he is successful is in the minds of Baha'i's.
okay there is a mixup here someplace. Either I am misunderstanding you, or you are misunderstanding Christians, or something, because this is illogical.
You say:
A manifestation of God is NOT God.
Then you say that a manifestation is like the Christian concept of incarnation.
BUT, incarnation DOES mean God. "God made man." IOW Jesus IS God -- he was God before he was born, and he is still God after he was born, according to Christian incarnation theology.
So if A equals C and B does not equal C, then A can't equal B.
IOW manifestations (at least how you define them) are not like incarnations.
As far as manifesting the attributes of God, all those who obey God and cultivate Godly virtues manifest the attributes of God. You don't have to be a messiah to do that. It's something that really everyone should do.
I don't know why you would find it ironic. Christianity is 2000 years old. It's founders were all Jews. Sure they went off the deep end turning Jesus into God and this thing about creepy human sacrifice being your salvation, but essentially you see the remnants of Judaism all throughout their religion. Bahai is, I'm sorry to be blunt but it's true, the johnny come lately on the block. It's just not going to be as similar. Any new religion that develops in the future, will be even less similar than Baha'i.
You're a good man. I'm not trying to personally attack you. But it does seem to me that the problem here is that you simply lack the faith to believe in a real messiah with teeth. That's okay. If it's more than you can do, God understands. Just keep worshiping God and acting rightly as you already do.
It doesn't matter what I think, or what Jews think. It matters what Hashem thinks, and he reveals that in the sacred texts. There, these things are clear. There, the messiah is a man, who has an earthly rule.
Christians and Baha'i's spiritualize the prophecies in an attempt to claim messiah status for people who clearly don't qualify.
Ever watch "Life of Brian?" I love Monty Python!!
There is one scene where Jesus is delivering the sermon on the mount and is saying "Blessed are the peacemakers." But those in the back of the crowd can't hear him well enough. Some one says, "What did he say?" Another says, "Blessed are the cheese makers." Someone remarks, "What's so **** special about cheese makers, I'd like to know." And (this is the point I want to make with you) the well intentioned but oh so wrong spiritual guy says, "It's not about cheese makers specifically; it's about manufacturers in general." You see how he makes sense of it by making it figurative,when the truth is, he simply lost touch with what Jesus had actually said.
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IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
If 70% of the world's Jews live outside of Israel (including the 50% that live in the USA) I would CERTAINLY call that scattered.
Jews of course have all sorts of different opinions. The ones I relate to the best feel that it is in process, but we would never say that it is fulfilled. Never. Indeed I've never met a Jew that says it is fulfilled. I'm sure one exists somewhere in the world.
You are the only person I've ever met that tries to say that being in the middle of a process is the same thing as having completed the process (fulfilled).
Please don't take offense at this. I don't read links that are used in lieu of arguments. I come in here to chat with folks such as yourself. If I wanted to surf the net, I could do that on my own. If there are certain points from those links that you would like make, go ahead an summarize, or use short quotes, or whatever.
I know how you feel when you run across a great link that says it so much better. Heck sometimes even others in the forum here will just so out do me, that I feel like quoting their whole post and adding "What this says ^." LOL
Was Christ the Messiah? Christians and Jews Disagree
I tried so hard to word my post carefully, but I know it's a difficult idea for non-Jews to catch onto -- we are probably the only religion in the world that thinks we are right, but others don't needto convert to us, and it's just complex and difficult to explain. We'll take all the time you need until your questions are sufficiently answers.
Jews are an ethnicity, a tribe, a people. As a tribe, we have a tribal religion, called Judaism. That's an awkward way to put it. The way we say it to ourselves is that among the peoples and nations of the world, we have been called out to be a nation of priests. Because we are priests, God gave us a covenant -- all sorts of extra responsibility that no one else has. These responsibilities are written in the Torah -- 613 laws.
We are, as a priestly people, supposed to be a minority. What would the world be like if everyone were a priest and no one were laity?
So what about non-Jews then? What does Hashem expect of them, since it is not necessary for them to become Jews? Basically, ethical monotheism (the Orthodox would narrow it a bit more to keeping the seven Noahide laws). Preferably, we would like you to understand that the one God you worship is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, because he is not just the God of the Jews, but the God of the whole world. We call such Gentiles "righteous Gentiles" or "Noahides." As a Baha'i you already fall into this category.
Now fast forward to the messianic era, and the day when those of many languages and peoples will grasp the hem of the Jew etc. Even among righteous Gentiles such as Muslims, there are many errors in their theology. When the messiah comes, they are gonna slap their heads and say "Son of a gun. Why didn't I see this before?" But that doesn't mean they will become Jews and take on the 613 laws of the Covenant. It simply means their theology will get straightened out,and they will continue to worship Hashem as righteous Gentiles.
I have no idea -- I'm gonna just blurt out my own imaginings for fun -- how this will actually pan out. I can see from creation that God values diversity, so I'm sure that as much diversity will be preserved as possible. Maybe those from Scottish culture will worship in ways particular to that culture, while those from Chinese culture will use their own traditional way, all adapted of course to recognizing the God of Israel. Maybe different religions' traditions will still be kept, but be realigned with monotheism. Who can know?? I just know that the Noahide laws don't require non-Jews to adopt Israel's liturgies.
Note: there will always be non-Jews who are exceptions to the rule. For those who have an uncommon affinity for the People of Israel, they always have the option of conversion and taking upon themselves the covenant.
The important thing is to realize that these are the exceptions, not the rule. The general rule is that Gentiles are just fine being Gentiles, just as loved, just as valued, and are just fine being ethical monotheists.
It's not a matter of losing free will. It's a matter of the veil being lifted and the truth becoming so obvious that it cannot be refused.
wandering peacefully
Which way to the woods?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
There is no reason to think that the Messiah was going to “achieve” these things Himself during His lifetime because much would depend upon the free will decisions of man. How could he be a diplomat for peace when all the kings and rulers rejected Him? God does not intervene in free will decisions so it was a choice they made, but it could have gone either way.
CXIX: O ye rulers of the earth!
No, what I said is that what Baha’is believe is not the same as what Christians believe about Jesus being an incarnation of God.
No, they are not. The difference is that a Manifestation of God manifests the attributes of God but He does not become God in the flesh because God cannot incarnate His Essence and become flesh. That is explained in this chapter on the Baha’i version of the Trinity (which focuses on Jesus but could be applied to any Manifestation of God): 27: THE TRINITY
That is true and Baha’u’llah wrote that we should strive to do manifest the attributes if God.
“From the foregoing passages and allusions it hath been made indubitably clear that in the kingdoms of earth and heaven there must needs be manifested a Being, an Essence Who shall act as a Manifestation and Vehicle for the transmission of the grace of the Divinity Itself, the Sovereign Lord of all. Through the Teachings of this Day Star of Truth every man will advance and develop until he attaineth the station at which he can manifest all the potential forces with which his inmost true self hath been endowed. It is for this very purpose that in every age and dispensation the Prophets of God and His chosen Ones have appeared amongst men, and have evinced such power as is born of God and such might as only the Eternal can reveal.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 67-68
The difference is that Manifestations of God fully manifest the attributes of God to a degree which no ordinary human can.
Of course Christianity contains remnants of Judaism just as the Baha’i Faith contains remnants of Islam, but I was not referring to that.
Firstly, I am a woman, and secondly, I have no lack of faith in what the Messiah can do. The salient difference between Jews and Christians and Baha’is is that Jews and Christians believe the Messiah will do it all himself like some kind of Superman and Baha’is believe that humans will do most of the heavy lifting according to what Baha’u’llah revealed.
God has an earthly rule and God will rule through the Messiah is not unlike what Christians believe. The only difference is that Christians believe Jesus is the Messiah who will rule and Jews believe a man will rule.
The hundred-dollar question is where this is stated in any sacred texts or whether these were just interpretations that came down through Rabbis just as the interpretations of the NT came down through the Church, both later accepted by the religious followers without question.
Jesus did not qualify but Baha’u’llah did, and He had an earthly rule. But of course you are not going to believe that, because no matter how WELL qualified Baha'u'llah was, if he did not restore the Torah and exalt the Jews, He would be an imposter in your eyes. He has to qualify YOU before you consider him qualified. As such, you will continue to wait for the Messiah who will do what you want him to do, just as the Christians will continue waiting for Jesus to return and do what they want.
I have no idea how you think everyone would recognize the Messiah when he comes. If he identified himself as “the Jewish Messiah” he would immediately be rejected by 99.8% of the world population who is not Jewish. What could he do that would convince everyone? How could he suddenly put an end to war working with world leaders of other religions? Do you ever bother to ask these questions or do you just believe your Rabbis the same way that Christians believe their Church leaders?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Scattered means occurring or found at intervals or various locations, rather than all together. If 50% are in the United States they are not scattered. Of course you could still say they are scattered throughout the U.S., so what does it take for the Jews to NOT be scattered? If they all lived in Israel they would still be scattered throughout Israel.
I agree it is a process and it does not have to be completely fulfilled at any particular time, not unless you have a prophecy that SAYS that. It is a Messianic Age prophecy so it will be fulfilled in the Messianic age. More Jews will return over time but I still do not think all Jews will return to Israel because (a) it is not large enough and (b) they might not choose to.
It is really too involved to summarize; otherwise I would have tried to summarize it.
You are certainly not the only religion in the world who thinks you are right; most religions think that, and there are other religions such as Buddhism and Hinduism who do not think other have to convert.
However, if you think you are right, how does it work -- logically speaking -- if all the other religions retain their own beliefs forever? Are the Jews just going to be the overseers of Truth?
Saying you are a minority and priestly is just another way of saying you believe you are special and chosen. And you use the Torah to justify this. Baha’u’llah also gave the Baha’is a Covenant but we do not use that to say we are special. The Covenant only applies to the Baha’is. We believe that God has ordained that in the future there will be only one religion, but it might not be the Baha’i Faith because by then another Messenger of God might have come and established a new religion. We are not special, we are just the most current religion of God.
With all due respect, I consider this a complete fantasy. There is not much more I can say except what I say to Christians. Keep waiting and hoping. There is nothing that can be done to change peoples’ beliefs unless they choose to change them. Most people will not do that for a very long time, unless God intervenes.
I have no idea -- I'm gonna just blurt out my own imaginings for fun -- how this will actually pan out. I can see from creation that God values diversity, so I'm sure that as much diversity will be preserved as possible. Maybe those from Scottish culture will worship in ways particular to that culture, while those from Chinese culture will use their own traditional way, all adapted of course to recognizing the God of Israel. Maybe different religions' traditions will still be kept, but be realigned with monotheism. Who can know?? I just know that the Noahide laws don't require non-Jews to adopt Israel's liturgies.
Note: there will always be non-Jews who are exceptions to the rule. For those who have an uncommon affinity for the People of Israel, they always have the option of conversion and taking upon themselves the covenant.
The important thing is to realize that these are the exceptions, not the rule. The general rule is that Gentiles are just fine being Gentiles, just as loved, just as valued, and are just fine being ethical monotheists.
What about those who are not monotheists, what about atheists?
How do you think that veil will be lifted? How do you think the truth will become obvious to everyone? That is the hundred-dollar question.
Let’s just say that happened. How do you imagine Christians and Muslims and Buddhists and Hindus will feel having the Jews as the ultimate gatekeepers of Truth?
Here is another thing: If the same thing happened with the Baha’i Faith and everyone realized that Baha’u’llah was the Manifestation of God for this age (the return of Christ and the Promised One of all the religions) they would also then learn that we accept that all their religions were God’s religions, so there would be no reason for them to think we think we are superior to them, because we don’t. They would just see us as the fulfillment of all the religions of the past, not a replacement. What Jews are trying to say is that they will replace all the religions that preceded them and came after them as if they are the ones who have the ultimate truth nobody else has. Baha’is never say that about our religion. That goes against all our teachings.
“Beware, O believers in the Unity of God, lest ye be tempted to make any distinction between any of the Manifestations of His Cause, or to discriminate against the signs that have accompanied and proclaimed their Revelation. This indeed is the true meaning of Divine Unity, if ye be of them that apprehend and believe this truth. Be ye assured, moreover, that the works and acts of each and every one of these Manifestations of God, nay whatever pertaineth unto them, and whatsoever they may manifest in the future, are all ordained by God, and are a reflection of His Will and Purpose. Whoso 60 maketh the slightest possible difference between their persons, their words, their messages, their acts and manners, hath indeed disbelieved in God, hath repudiated His signs, and betrayed the Cause of His Messengers.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 59-60
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Have you noticed that when someone writes a really good book about how to do something, solve a problem, or whatnot, it becomes popular. People buy it voluntarily, not because they are forced to, but because of the sheer power of the truth of the book. This is true about books like, "How to win friends and influence people," or "The Art of War."
To a much greater degree, some certain religious texts rise above the frey because they resonate the truth for us. That's why people buy you guy's writings. Or the Tao Te Ching. Or Black Elk speaks. or the Quran.
When the messiah comes, he will be like the most morally brilliant person ever born. Not greater than a man can be, but certainly evolved to a level not seen before. His genius will be so obvious, that all the world will recognize it. It will be obvious. It's not like free will is taken away. It's just that with his teachings, all the other choices sort of start to look like the "nice try, but no cigar" options they really are.
Indeed, his wisdom will have such renown, that even though he is the ruler of one country, all the nations of the world will come to him for justice and peacemaking. There have been shadows of this in the past, but only shadows. Ghandi. King. But we have yet to see the full monty.
Thanks for clearing that up. I knew there was a misunderstanding in there someplace!
So what you are doing (and its fine) is creating a new definition of Manifestation of God particular to your religion. In your religion it means a full or complete manifestation of all the attributes of God (you don't think such a being wouldn't actually be God?) or at least to such a degree that no normal human being could do it.
Two comments.
1. I don't see the necessity for it being superhuman. You accuse me of making the messiah into a superman, but it appears it is you who are doing so.
2. The Baha'u'llah was not superhuman. He was a regular guy, just like Jesus was. Very spiritually minded. Said some things worth paying attention to. Said other things that I clearly disagree with. He was a spiritually gifted person in many ways, but certainly not "superhuman."
Doh! So sorry.
What's worse, this is the second time in a few weeks I've thought a gal in here was a guy. I long for the good old days when many forums informed people of your sex. I also grew up when if you didn't know the sex, you used male pronouns. I suppose some like it the new way better. I'm just an older person from a different culture I suppose. People get me mixed up, too. They can't tell my sex from my nick, and assume I'm a dude.
The thousand dollar question is which is more likely to be correct? The interpretation orally passed down from the time the document was written? Or interpretations that arose thousands of years later?
There you go again, my friend. the Bahaullah never ruled Israel, much less was the de facto ruler of the world.
Well, he has to meet the criteria *God* set out in the Tanakh.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Except that in this particular context, we are talking about scattered away from the origin point, and being regathered back to the origin point, which is the promised land. So let's say (hypothetically) that 90% of the People of Israel moved to the USA. We would still say that we are scattered, because we are not in the Eretz Yisrael. We can be hip hip hurray and patriotic American citizens and fight for your country, but in the end, America is not our homeland. (That's why any talk among Zionists of creating a homeland anywhere else besides Israel never had a chance.)
As to the logistical problems, I trust God. I can't foresee all the answers. Heck I can't even see an answer to the Middle East crisis that we have right now. But God is in control and has a plan. Think about it -- if you had asked anyone in the year 1900 if Jews would ever have their own nation state of Israel again, everyone would have laughed. It seemed utterly, utterly impossible. Yet the impossible has happened.
Thank you for asking. We can go over this in as much detail as you need until you feel like you have received satisfactory answer. It would help if you could isolate and quote (or perhaps highlight within the quote) exactly what I say that gives you these questions, so that I'll know where I need to focus my clarification.
Again, the standard for non-Jews is ethical monotheism, with God being the Creator worshiped by Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. In some cases, there will be religions that need to come up to the bar. They perhaps believe in many gods, or do not profess a belief in any god at all except perhaps nature. In many other cases, the framework of ethical monotheism already exists, but mistaken notions need to be dropped.
For example, Christians would need to drop the idea that Jesus is God and that he died for their sins. In a way that would mean Chrisitanity would no longer exist, since that rather cuts out its heart. Yet you'd be surprised how much could survive. The whole manner of worship that Christians have developed down through the centuries can be used to worship God just as easily as Jesus. Ecclesial structure could be maintained. Traditions still used. It would be an upheaval to begin with, but it is one possible way that things could go. No more Christianity, but a quasi-Christianity that former Christians would feel comfortable with given their new beliefs.
I should say that some Jews would find what I'm saying very objectionable. There are those Jews who don't believe in a literal messiah at all. And there are Jews who think that other religions should not be "overhauled," but the slate should simply be swept clean and everyone be a nice carbon copy B'nei Noach.
Who knows how it will actually work out? The prophets are not specific, and I certainly don't see the future.
We ARE chosen. The question is, chosen for what? To be better than everyone else? No. More moral? No. More loved by God? No. Simply to be the priesthood of the world, and priests are held to a higher standard. Not every Jew thinks this is such a wonderful thing. It is certainly a very good reason for discouraging those who come to convert. We have a different job than non-Jews, a different mission. That means different responsibilities. For example, I am not to eat that succulent lobster I see on TV. You can have all the lobster you like without guilt.
And yes, it is written in the Torah. If a person accepts the Torah, they have to accept that the Jews are set apart as God's covenant people, unconditionally, forever. However, everyone has the free will to reject the Torah.
If Baha'is believe you have a covenant that applies only to yourselves, that is a textbook case of specialness, no matter how hard you try to squirm out of it.
The coming of the messiah IS an intervention of God.
The prophet Jeremiah says that during the messianic era there will be no atheists. Everyone will know God.
Jeremiah 31:33 (or 31:34 in Christian Bibles)
And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying: 'Know the LORD'; for they shall all know Me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD
But these kinds of details are not really given. Remember that the emphasis of Tanakh, of Judaism, is not the messiah. Very little is said about the Messiah. The emphasis is on obeying the Torah.
So this Jew's less than two cents worth of thinking on the issue:
1. It could simply be the overwhelming earthly wisdom of the Messiah. the world will never have seen such spiritual genius until he comes. Not superhuman, but certainly the next level in our evolution -- problem the very culmination of it.
2. Sometimes there are simply very large paradigm shifts that occur, and there are too many variables to really be able to nail down exactly why one way of thinking dies out and another replaces it. For example, Israel really, really struggled with idolatry all the way up to the Babylonian captivity. Then, something simply shifted in Babylon, and never since then have Jews ever been tempted by idolatry again. It's an astounding change over millions and millions of people. A paradigm shift that the world is currently going through is the giving up of belief in magick, and replacement with scientific method. The reasons are simply far too complicated to nail down. It is bigger than the invention of the wheel. So what I'm saying is that a conglomeration of factors could simply come together to create a new paradigm for the messianic age.
3. You can always rely on the good ol' fashioned "God done it."
Again, if you believe the prophets of the Tanakh, you have your answer. If you don't like the answer, then obviously you don't believe in the prophets. Zechariah 8:23 Thus saith the LORD of hosts: In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold, out of all the languages of the nations, shall even take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying: We will go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.'
I think it is rather naive to say "oh they can still have their religions" without any overhaul, since all the religions disagree with each other. There are obviously mistakes. The idea of the messianic era is that the truth is finally known, the "law will be written on our hearts" and "everyone will know God."
Do you honestly think that when the messianic era comes, that the Messiah will encourage Christians to worship a man as God?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
You are free to believe that if you want to but keep in mind it is not based upon any scriptures; it is your own fantasy Messiah. Fantasies are nice because they give people hope and something to look forward to. The only problem with them is that they are not real. Nobody can talk people out of them because they are emotionally attached to them. Nobody can disprove them so anyone can believe they are true as long as they want to; even if they never come to pass, it will always be at some future time.
I did not create the definition of a Manifestation of God. Baha’u’llah described what one was in His Writings. A Manifestation of God has all the attributes of God that a human can have to a superlative degree, attributes such as Good, Loving, Gracious, Merciful, Just, Righteous, Forgiving, Patient.
However, there are attributes of God that only God has: Eternal, Holy, Unchanging, Impassable, Infinite, Omnipresent, All-powerful, All-Knowing, All-Wise, Self-Existent, Self-Sufficient, Sovereign, and Immaterial. These attributes are related to the Essence of God (God’s intrinsic nature) which can never be known by any human, not even by a Manifestation of God. These attributes are what differentiates a Manifestation of God from God.
I would not call a Manifestation of God a superhuman; I would rather call Him a God-man.
“In His Tablet to Muhammad Sháh the Báb, moreover, has revealed: “The substance wherewith God hath created Me is not the clay out of which others have been formed. He hath conferred upon Me that which the worldly-wise can never comprehend, nor the faithful discover….” The Promised Day Is Come, p. 43
Of the true nature of a Manifestation of God we are told their bodies are human but their Soul was not conceived at conception like ours, but was preexistent in the spiritual world. In that preexistence their Souls were given the ability and capacity to receive direct revelations from God. That is what makes them different from ordinary humans. The Soul of Jesus came down from heaven even though His body was born of Mary and conceived by the Holy Spirit.
It does say female on the profile. I see yours says that too. S. Cal, my husband is from San Diego, my sister was too but she passed away in 2004. I was born in Santa Barbara, moved away as a baby, but I went back there for my first two years of college. I am glad I left when it was still pristine, so I could have good memories of the beautiful scenery.
That would depend upon who interpreted them, an errant human or an inerrant Representative of God (the Manifestation of God).
“Know assuredly that just as thou firmly believest that the Word of God, exalted be His glory, endureth for ever, thou must, likewise, believe with undoubting faith that its meaning can never be exhausted. They who are its appointed interpreters, they whose hearts are the repositories of its secrets, are, however, the only ones who can comprehend its manifold wisdom. Whoso, while reading the Sacred Scriptures, is tempted to choose therefrom whatever may suit him with which to challenge the authority of the Representative of God among men, is, indeed, as one dead, though to outward seeming he may walk and converse with his neighbors, and share with them their food and their drink.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 175-176
Nowhere does it SAY that the Messiah will “rule Israel” or rule the world. That of course is just your interpretation of scriptures. Everyone has their own interpretations.
Maybe so, but not according to YOUR personal interpretation of the Tanakh, and therein lies the problem. Look at all the people on this forum with all the different interpretations and expectations of who the Messiah will be, when he will come, where he will come to. All these people are reading the SAME scriptures so to any logical person it would be obvious that there is more than ONE interpretation of scripture.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Okay, I can understand it from that perspective. You might like this website that has a timeline of events. It was posted on this forum by a Jewish poster almost two years ago:
Before the First Zionist Aliyot (1799-1882)
I feel the same way about God being in control and having a Plan, so I never worry.
So you have a “vision” of how it might turn out, according you your beliefs and scriptures, but nobody really knows the details. Baha’is are in the same position with people constantly prodding us and asking us about the future.
I could say the same thing about the Baha’i Faith since we feel we have a special status and special duties, at least during this Dispensation. Baha’is have a different job than non-Baha’is, a different mission, and they are not held to the same standards as we are. I do not think it is a wonderful thing most of the time, but I try to do what I am enjoined to do. It is not about foods or sex or things I might want, it is about all the time it takes to carry the message. At least you don’t have that kind of responsibility.
Jews were set apart during the Mosaic Dispensation, just as Christians were set apart during the Dispensation of Jesus but we are no longer living in the Mosaic Dispensation or the Dispensation of Jesus. Yet all these religious followers act as if time stands still and nothing ever changes, and that God can never speak again. That seems weird to me.
The Covenant of Baha’u’llah applies to anyone who chooses to become a Baha’i but that does not mean we are special or chosen. We choose God by choosing Baha’u’llah; God did not choose us to be special. And we were not automatically born as Baha’is the same way Jews are born into a family of Jews. We cannot choose to be a Baha’i until we are 15 years old.
True, since God sends Him.
That we can agree upon.
I think that is a good idea because that is what makes you a better person. Besides, there is no point surmising what might happen, since whatever will happen will happen when God decides.
Yep, anything is possible in the Messianic Age but at our age we won’t be alive to see it so I do not think much about it. I just try to do what I am supposed to do for Baha’u’llah and God. That is a difficult enough task. I do not like thinking about the afterlife either but that is where I am headed for all of eternity so I have to think about it once in a while.
That verse could mean any number of things but of course that is true of most verses.
I can agree on that.
Isaiah 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.
No, absolutely not, because God is not a man.
But I think that everyone will know that Jesus was a Manifestation of God and that the Church had made a big mistake with the Trinity doctrine.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
The whole essense of the messianic era and the messiah that will reign during it IS that it gives us something to look forward to in the end of days. If it is a dream, it will be a dream come true. And I fail to see how the Baha'i interpretation isn't just as dreamy.
You don't think a God man is superhuman (meaning human but also more than human).
Just a friendly share. Although Judaism doesn't have this particular kind of "Manifestations of God" that Baha'i has, we have something else interesting. It is said that in every generation there are 36 righteous men, unknown to themselves or to us. It is said that no matter how depraved the world gets, God will not strike out in anger for the sake of these 36 righteous men. This is on my mind because yesterday I was reading an article by someone who wondered if Fred Rogers (of Mr. Rogers' Neighborhood) weren't one of the 36. Mr Rogers has a special place in my heart.
We share a common culture. I was born in Redondo Beach, and have spent most of my life living in Los Angeles County. I spent my childhood by the beach, and miss it, but it's still within driving range.
Actually whether this "representative" interprets correctly is a test of whether he is truly a representative, of just a "nice try, but no cigar." The reason we Jews so easily turn away from these newer monotheisms is that, honestly, they twist our scriptures. Anyone who does that can't possibly be the Messiah (or a Manifestation or whatever).
Look, this isn't fair. I offered you a good solid verse about the Messiah being David, and asked you who David was if not the King of Israel who ruled from Jerusalem. Your response was to avoid answering, saying, "well I'm just not that familiar with the Tanakh." You can't reject what you don't understand.
So I'm just curious. Do Baha'is have winter holidays like Christmas and Chanukah?
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
We all have our beliefs...
You atheists do not know how lucky you are to be able to joke around about religious beliefs instead of having to talk seriously about them.
I see no reason to take religion seriously.
Additionally, I also see no reason why one couldn't joke around about serious subjects either way.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Remember what I said to you earlier. I don't read websites that are used in lieu of a post. I can surf the web another time. Right now I am here to chat with *you*, you wonderful you! If there are important points from that website you want to share with me, you are welcome to do so with your own words and short quotes. Please? With strawberries and cream?
I didn't know about this. Very interesting. Thank you for sharing.
Well there are somethings which grow, and other things which are constant. If you believe the Tanakh, our covenant is everlasting. I guess what I'm saying is that you can't accept our sacred texts and yours both, since they conflict on this point.
Special just means different, set apart from the norm. I just read you saying that Baha'is have their own covenant, and rules they are bound to that others are not obligated to. That IS special. I think sometimes people think that if you say "special" you are being arrogant. But that's not always the case.
So you basically believe the world will get a theological overhaul by Baha'i the same way we believe the overhaul will be via Judaism. I honestly don't think we are different in this particular way.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I can certainly understand why you wouldn't.
I see no problem with that. Religious people take their religions far too seriously, Imo.
Lighten up I say, lighten up!