What would be evidence that God exists?

[CG Didymus]

God did produce Books, in every age and dispensation.

“That City is none other than the Word of God revealed in every age and dispensation. In the days of Moses it was the Pentateuch; in the days of Jesus, the Gospel; in the days of Muhammad, the Messenger of God, the Qur’án; in this day, the Bayán; and in the Dispensation of Him Whom God will make manifest, His own Book—the Book unto which all the Books of former Dispensations must needs be referred, the Book that standeth amongst them all transcendent and supreme.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 270

The "gospels"? How about the rest of the NT? Especially Paul's writings? So do you think God guided the Bishops in their vote on which books to include in the canon of Christian Scriptures?

 

[Trailblazer]

In your community, what has been the growth rate in the last 20 years? Last 10 years? Last year? Then, same with the growth rate in the U.S.? Then, has there been years of rapid increase and then little or no growth or even a decrease?

I assume you are referring to the growth rate of the Baha'i Faith. I am not sure what it has been in my local community, but I do not think it has grown much since I have been here, for about the last 27 years. I think that the Baha'i Faith grew faster in the United States in the 1970s and 1980s, you remember those days. I cannot say I know what happened after that or why it happened, but I sometimes think it could be that the idealism on those days we remember gave way to growing materialism which meant people were less likely to join a new religion that has idealistic teachings. But I do not think the growth in the United State is indicative of the overall growth, since the Faith has grown much faster in other countries such as India.

As I recall, there were five million Baha'is by the end of the first century, around 1963. There are approximately seven million Baha'is in the world now, so that indicates that the growth rate has slowed down since 1963.

It just so happens that I have written many posts on the "smallness" of the Baha'i Faith since an atheist on another forum continually ridiculed me about that, saying that proves that the Baha'i Faith is not true... So below is one of many posts I posted to him.

All religions grow slowly in the first few centuries. How many Jews became Christians in the first century? There is no reason to think that the Baha’i Faith would be any different, because human nature has not changed. Every time a new religion is revealed by God, most people cling tenaciously to their older religions and nonbelievers are highly suspicious.

The Baha’i Faith is not doomed to failure just because it is still small in numbers, since numbers of adherents do not indicate failure.

The Baha’i Faith has endured innumerable obstacles since its inception. No religion in the history of mankind has undergone as much opposition as the Baha’i Faith did during the early years. Given all the tumult of the early years, it is amazing that it survived at all.

In spite of all the opposition, the Baha’i Faith was the fastest growing religion in the world from 1910-2010. Statistics show that from 1910-2010, the Baha’i Faith grew at a rate of 3.54%, whereas during that time Islam grew at a rate of 1.97% and Christianity grew at a rate of 1.32%. Growth of religion - Wikipedia

The Baha’i Faith is a religion that is gaining prominence in the world. In spite of the fact that it is still fairly small it is recognized by governments all over the world. Governments Recognize Baha’u’llah’s Bicentenary—Globally

The goal of the Baha’i Faith administration has never been to increase numbers of adherents but rather to expand to as many locations as possible around the world. These goals have been met. The Baha’i Faith has spread to over 250 countries and territories and is almost as widespread as Christianity. Most of this happened during the “formative age” of the Baha’i Faith (1921-1944) FOURTH PERIOD: THE INCEPTION OF THE FORMATIVE AGE OF THE BAHÁ’Í FAITH 1921–1944

Now that this expansion has been successful, more recent goals are consolidation and community building as well as working with people of all religions or no religion on projects that are intended to bring about the Betterment of the World. All these efforts have been successful and all Baha’i Fund goals have been met since the inception of the Baha’i Faith.

 

[CG Didymus]

No, because God wants us to search for Him and those who make an effort will be guided by God.

For a person born 500 years ago in Italy, how many do you think had to do a "search" for a God or religion? Lots of people in a lot of places were born into a culture where they all had same religion, and other people in other places had a different religion. Now we have all sorts of choices about which religions and which concepts of God we want to believe in. And the ones that did not find and did not chose the Baha'i Faith, who guided them?

 

[ppp]

Collectively, every human shares that understanding of what a dead corpse is. That said however, I'm sure there are those that might not see you as dead, but simply in transition to another state. That really depends on the group's collective ways of interpreting life events. In fact, in the Bible, Paul refers to the dead as "asleep". So there. You've helped me make my point.

I am not interested in delusions. If that's the type of thing you plan to hang you hat on, just keep moving on. It's not worth my time.

 

[Trailblazer]

What stories in the Bible do you take literally true?

I do not know how the Bible tells the stories, but I believe that Jesus was born of a virgin and Jesus was crucified.
I am sure there are other things but those are the two that I can think of off the top of my head.

There are also things that happened to Moses I believe are literally true. I they happened as Baha'u'llah described them but some of that that might concur with the Bible.

 

[CG Didymus]

I assume you are referring to the growth rate of the Baha'i Faith. I am not sure what it has been in my local community, but I do not think it has grown much since I have been here, for about the last 27 years. I think that the Baha'i Faith grew faster in the United States in the 1970s and 1980s, you remember those days. I cannot say I know what happened after that or why it happened, but I sometimes think it could be that the idealism on those days we remember gave way to growing materialism which meant people were less likely to join a new religion that has idealistic teachings. But I do not think the growth in the United State is indicative of the overall growth, since the Faith has grown much faster in other countries such as India.

As I recall, there were five million Baha'is by the end of the first century, around 1963. There are approximately seven million Baha'is in the world now, so that indicates that the growth rate has slowed down since 1963.

It just so happens that I have written many posts on the "smallness" of the Baha'i Faith since an atheist on another forum continually ridiculed me about that, saying that proves that the Baha'i Faith is not true... So below is one of many posts I posted to him.

All religions grow slowly in the first few centuries. How many Jews became Christians in the first century? There is no reason to think that the Baha’i Faith would be any different, because human nature has not changed. Every time a new religion is revealed by God, most people cling tenaciously to their older religions and nonbelievers are highly suspicious.

The Baha’i Faith is not doomed to failure just because it is still small in numbers, since numbers of adherents do not indicate failure.

The Baha’i Faith has endured innumerable obstacles since its inception. No religion in the history of mankind has undergone as much opposition as the Baha’i Faith did during the early years. Given all the tumult of the early years, it is amazing that it survived at all.

In spite of all the opposition, the Baha’i Faith was the fastest growing religion in the world from 1910-2010. Statistics show that from 1910-2010, the Baha’i Faith grew at a rate of 3.54%, whereas during that time Islam grew at a rate of 1.97% and Christianity grew at a rate of 1.32%. Growth of religion - Wikipedia

The Baha’i Faith is a religion that is gaining prominence in the world. In spite of the fact that it is still fairly small it is recognized by governments all over the world. Governments Recognize Baha’u’llah’s Bicentenary—Globally

The goal of the Baha’i Faith administration has never been to increase numbers of adherents but rather to expand to as many locations as possible around the world. These goals have been met. The Baha’i Faith has spread to over 250 countries and territories and is almost as widespread as Christianity. Most of this happened during the “formative age” of the Baha’i Faith (1921-1944) FOURTH PERIOD: THE INCEPTION OF THE FORMATIVE AGE OF THE BAHÁ’Í FAITH 1921–1944

Now that this expansion has been successful, more recent goals are consolidation and community building as well as working with people of all religions or no religion on projects that are intended to bring about the Betterment of the World. All these efforts have been successful and all Baha’i Fund goals have been met since the inception of the Baha’i Faith.

If someone started a new religion today and convinced 10 people to join... that would be a very high percentage of growth. If in the next 10 years they got 20 more people to join... that's still pretty high.

With the Baha'i Faith, I used to hear stories of whole villages becoming Baha'i. I asked about before, but I didn't get an answer. But I'd think it might be similar to what happened to my Baha'i friends. They'd go off to a Reservation, have a "mass teaching" event, then leave. So they could honestly say that many native people joined the Baha'i Faith, but what would they say one or two years later? I visited one of those native people several years later. She had signed a card, but she never really joined.

 

[Windwalker]

I am not interested in delusions. If that's the type of thing you plan to hang you hat on, just keep moving on. It's not worth my time.

Sorry you couldn't keep up. Everything I said is well-researched. But I get that you're not interested in having your ideas of truth and reality challenged. It's a pretty typical response.

Consensus trance - Wikispooks

Explanation
"Consensus trance" is used to explain the psychology that requires the (possibly tacit) acceptance of "Official Narratives" by the sub-conscious blocking out of unpleasant and unpalatable truths about the world, one's country, society, religion etc. - in other words, the avoidance of cognitive dissonance - in order to get through the day and concentrate on the deeply established routines of life. It is highly noteworthy just how willing people are to suspend belief in their own senses in order to conform to a group to which they feel allegiance.[2] Richard Heinberg has made extensive use of this in his writings about 9/11 and Peak Oil.

 

[ppp]

Sorry you couldn't keep up..

Don't be sorry. There was nothing to keep up with.

 

[Trailblazer]

Do you think that some religions do believe in false Gods? Like the Gods of the Greeks?

Yes. Didn't Moses say to the that the Israelites that they should have no other Gods but the one true God?

Exodus 20 And God spake all these words, saying,
2 I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

That means that any other gods were false Gods.

 

[Trailblazer]

The "gospels"? How about the rest of the NT? Especially Paul's writings? So do you think God guided the Bishops in their vote on which books to include in the canon of Christian Scriptures?

I think that would include all the books of the NT, including Paul.
In have no idea if God guided anyone, but I think God probably left it to the free will of man to decide what to include.

 

[Windwalker]

Don't be sorry. There was nothing to keep up with.

Whatever makes you sleep better. Call it delusion, if you need to. But I'm in good company:

Consensus trance - Wikispooks

Explanation
"Consensus trance" is used to explain the psychology that requires the (possibly tacit) acceptance of "Official Narratives" by the sub-conscious blocking out of unpleasant and unpalatable truths about the world, one's country, society, religion etc. - in other words, the avoidance of cognitive dissonance - in order to get through the day and concentrate on the deeply established routines of life. It is highly noteworthy just how willing people are to suspend belief in their own senses in order to conform to a group to which they feel allegiance.[2] Richard Heinberg has made extensive use of this in his writings about 9/11 and Peak Oil.

--------------------------


Myth of the Given

Sellars's most famous work is the lengthy and difficult paper, "Empiricism and the Philosophy of Mind" (1956).[13] In it, he criticises the view that knowledge of what we perceive can be independent of the conceptual processes which result in perception. He named this "The Myth of the Given," attributing it to phenomenology and sense-data theories of knowledge.

The work targets several theories at once, especially C. I. Lewis' Kantian pragmatism and Rudolf Carnap's positivism. He draws out "The Myth of Jones," to defend the possibility of a strict behaviorist worldview. The parable explains how thoughts, intelligent action, and even subjective inner experience can be attributed to people within a scientific model. Sellars used a fictional tribe, the "Ryleans," since he wanted to address Gilbert Ryle's The Concept of Mind.

Sellars's idea of "myth", heavily influenced by Ernst Cassirer, is not necessarily negative. He saw it as something that can be useful or otherwise, rather than true or false. He aimed to unite the conceptual behavior of the "space of reasons" with the concept of a subjective sense experience. This was one of his most central goals, which his later work described as Kantian.

____________________________
Scholarly approaches to mysticism - Wikipedia

Scholarly approaches to mysticism include typologies of mysticism and the explanation of mystical states. Since the 19th century, mystical experience has evolved as a distinctive concept. It is closely related to "mysticism" but lays sole emphasis on the experiential aspect, be it spontaneous or induced by human behavior, whereas mysticism encompasses a broad range of practices aiming at a transformation of the person, not just inducing mystical experiences.

 

[Trailblazer]

For a person born 500 years ago in Italy, how many do you think had to do a "search" for a God or religion?

Good question. Since what I quoted was from the Writings of Baha'u'llah there is no reason to believe that it applies to anyone who lived before His Revelation. So to know if the believers of past religions were guided by God we would have to refer to their scriptures.

But given how things were 500 years ago on Italy, I would surmise they would have to search for God or a religion differently than in the present age.

And the ones that did not find and did not chose the Baha'i Faith, who guided them?

If you mean after the Baha'i Faith was established, from a Baha'i perspective they were not guided by God, they were probably guided by their parents or by clergy, and they might have not been guided at all, they simply believed what the surrounding culture expected them to believe.

 

[CG Didymus]

I do not know how the Bible tells the stories, but I believe that Jesus was born of a virgin and Jesus was crucified.
I am sure there are other things but those are the two that I can think of off the top of my head.

There are also things that happened to Moses I believe are literally true. I they happened as Baha'u'llah described them but some of that that might concur with the Bible.

Yeah, but even with those stories they add in things like with the crucifixion... The sun went dark.... There was a great earthquake... Dead people came out of their graves... And I think God spoke from heaven again. Then Moses... he had a cane that turned into a snake? And hit a rock with it and water came gushing out. He raised it in the air and the seas parted. And even with the virgin birth, they say, and we know these writers were definitely not eyewitnesses, that wise men followed a star. That was some star. Angels appeared to shepherds? I don't know of any story that wouldn't have some miraculous thing happen. For some of us, we look at that and say, "No way did that really happen." For believers, they say, "That is exactly what happened." Baha'is? What do they say? Usually that it's a symbolic story. I think they are kind of like what Baha'is say, but I describe them more as embellished myths and legends. Did God send fire and brimstone from the sky? Did he stop the Sun in the sky for a whole day? So I don't think the angels have to be real. Satan doesn't have to be real. The main characters, like Noah or Methuselah or Samson, and even God, don't have to be real. We all decide on how much we believe of these ancients stories. And, if a person becomes a Baha'i, Baha'u'llah tells us how much to believe of these stories.

 

[ppp]

Yes. Didn't Moses say to the that the Israelites that they should have no other Gods but the one true God?

Exodus 20 And God spake all these words, saying,
2 I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

That means that any other gods were false Gods.

Um. Where is the "true" in there? I don't think that happens till the New Testament.

Besides, according to archaeologists and Ugaritic texts the Hebrews started off as polytheists with a tribal deity who was a member of the Canaanite Patheon. Then moved to henotheism and on thru to monotheism.

 

[Trailblazer]

With the Baha'i Faith, I used to hear stories of whole villages becoming Baha'i. I asked about before, but I didn't get an answer. But I'd think it might be similar to what happened to my Baha'i friends. They'd go off to a Reservation, have a "mass teaching" event, then leave. So they could honestly say that many native people joined the Baha'i Faith, but what would they say one or two years later? I visited one of those native people several years later. She had signed a card, but she never really joined.

I think that happened a lot back in those days.... That is why they came up within a more structured approach to teaching and consolidating communities, which meant less new Baha'is coming in but more staying. That is what the Ruhi books and classes were all about.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yeah, but even with those stories they add in things like with the crucifixion... The sun went dark.... There was a great earthquake... Dead people came out of their graves... And I think God spoke from heaven again.

Actually, I believe some of that might have literally happened, the earthquake and the sun going dark, but not the dead people rising from graves.

Then Moses... he had a cane that turned into a snake? And hit a rock with it and water came gushing out. He raised it in the air and the seas parted.

But I doubt that really happened, made a nice movie though.

For some of us, we look at that and say, "No way did that really happen." For believers, they say, "That is exactly what happened." Baha'is? What do they say? Usually that it's a symbolic story.

Sometimes it is symbolic but not always, and sometimes it is both symbolic and literal, like stars appearing in the sky when a Prophet comes... Maybe you still have not read The Kitab-i-Iqan?

We all decide on how much we believe of these ancients stories. And, if a person becomes a Baha'i, Baha'u'llah tells us how much to believe of these stories.

No, Baha'u'llah does not tell us how much to believe, we get to decide for ourselves. Recently, by friend Duane (Truthseeker9 on here) told me Baha'is are free to believe that Jesus rose from the dead if they want to believe it. There is no excommunication by the UHJ for what we believe.

 

[Trailblazer]

Um. Where is the "true" in there? I don't think that happens till the New Testament.

Why do you think that? God revealed Himself long before the NT was written, to Moses and other Prophets.

 

[Trailblazer]

Besides, according to archaeologists and Ugaritic texts the Hebrews started off as polytheists with a tribal deity who was a member of the Canaanite Patheon. Then moved to henotheism and on thru to monotheism.

Yes, there was a progression and we have now progressed to monotheism, unless we live in the past.

 

[ppp]

Why do you think that? God revealed Himself long before the NT was written, to Moses and other Prophets.

I gave you the reasons. I don't think that one true God appears until well after the Pentateuch. Before that the Hebrew god was seen as just one of many gods. Just as one would expect of any cultural mythology where there isnt really a god to be doing anything.

 

[ppp]

Yes, there was a progression and we have now progressed to monotheism, unless we live in the past.

Not a progression. Just a change.