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What would be evidence that God exists?

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Every time you invoked a rule of logical argumentation in an attempt to support your position. Every time you quoted a logical fallacy in an attempt to discredit your criticizers. Every time you cited a site on formal or informal arguments in an attempt to bolster your point.
I was never trying to use logic to prove that my beliefs are true.
Logical arguments cannot be used to prove religious beliefs are true because beliefs cannot be proven to be true.
I never claimed my beliefs are true, I only ever said that I believe they are true.

It only matters what is true, not whether I used the word premise or belief.

If my belief that Baha’u’llah is a Messenger of God is true, then the conclusion God exists must be true.
Conversely, the conclusion God exists must be true if my belief that Baha’u’llah was a Messenger of God is true.

The fact that I cannot prove that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God does not mean He wasn't, nor does it mean that He was. Everyone is free to decide for themselves what to believe about that.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
I think if we looked at the world unbiased by any particular religious belief, then it seems to be the case (for me at least) that few religions seem to be inclined to give up what they have (rather seeking to gain more converts) and that neither is it likely that atheists or agnostics will convert to some kind of religious belief, no matter what others do.

I think if we are truly unbiased, we would not have discounted Faith as a viable path in understanding the basic spiritual concepts of Morality.

By thinking science, or anything in this material world, can fulfil our spiritual needs, is far from being unbiased and will never bring peace to the world. In fact in times of disaster, it is Faith based actions that compel us to work together as one humanity. We are strange creatures, because after we help each other in disaster, we go back to the science of killing each other, instead of the science of healing.

The fact that a world without Faith can not bring peace, then to me, it is becoming obvious that a harmony between faith and science must be found.

The immediate future will be great turmoil as that balance is found.

Also, it seems to be that it is those who don't have any religious beliefs who are the ones trying to gain equality and freedoms for all - as in LGBTQ matters, female and child rights, freedom of speech, etc. - and who are pointing out the concrete things we can do to make life better on this planet - for us, other life, and the environment - and where the moral issues are mostly solved (and obvious), but where the religions are the ones fighting over this particular battle ground.

I see the fight is with one's own self, as we have a choice that either God does offer us a way, or does not. If there is no God, maybe science will offer a solution for a lasting peace, but do not hold your breath in that one. If there is a God, then the path has already been given, as God never leaves us without guidance.

Mostly I see non structures civil right movements as putting on band aid solutions, that do not offer long term solutions or a vision. Mostly they are based in an unbridled self based liberty and liberty is dangerous if not controlled.

"It is incumbent upon them who are in authority to exercise moderation in all things. Whatsoever passeth beyond the limits of moderation will cease to exert a beneficial influence. Consider for instance such things as liberty, civilization and the like. However much men of understanding may favourably regard them, they will, if carried to excess, exercise a pernicious influence upon men." – Tablets of Baha’u’llah, p. 169.

I see faith gives a long term goal and to me, in this day, it is Baha'u'llah that has offered a way and means to obtain a universal lasting peace. That path lays in submission to God's Laws and many do not like submission.

Why aren't the religions pointing out our destructive, but often unthinking, behaviour that is producing the harms rather than sermonising about the peripheral issues? That is what I tend to see - that religions just aren't dealing with the important issues and mostly are keeping us from moving forward.

I see God has told us what are our destructive actions are and given us the solutions to overcome those actions.

All around the world being offered right now are community building programs based in virtues, morals and service to each other.

Predudices, Equality of women, Poverty, Disunity and Materialistic tenancies are some of the important issues being addressed at community level, what else do you see needs to be addressed?

Regards Tony
 

ppp

Well-Known Member
I think if we are truly unbiased, we would not have discounted Faith as a viable path in understanding the basic spiritual concepts of Morality.
I think that if we are truly unbiased that we do not assume that a given path is viable until it has been demonstrated to be viable.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
From the OP:
Allow me to preface this by saying that nobody can prove that a Messenger received communication from God, since nobody can prove that God exists. As I have been saying in this forum for years, all we have is evidence, and evidence is not the same as proof.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
I think that if we are truly unbiased that we do not assume that a given path is viable until it has been demonstrated to be viable.

Faith has demonstrated and proved to me it is more than viable, it is the way. Personally I belong to a world community working for the good of all humanity and practice peace.

The only way it becomes viable, is for us to get up off our backsides and make it work. That is the great thing about Faith it needs action and not just words and I offer that to motivate my own self.

Regards Tony
 
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Trailblazer

Veteran Member
The only way it becomes viable, is for us to get up off our backsides and make it work. That is the great thing about Faith it needs action and not just words.
Indeed...

“The essence of faith is fewness of words and abundance of deeds; he whose words exceed his deeds, know verily his death is better than his life.”

“Man is like unto a tree. If he be adorned with fruit, he hath been and will ever be worthy of praise and commendation. Otherwise a fruitless tree is but fit for fire.” Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 156, 257
 

ppp

Well-Known Member
Faith has demonstrated and proved to me it is more than viable, it is the way. Personally I belong to a world community working for the good of all humanity and practice peace.
Well, I look beyond just 'to me'. Or to one favored organization. Faith, in the world at large, leads to the whole gamut of behaviors. From thoughtfully/thoughtlessly benevolent to thoughtfully/thoughtlessly vile. And all sorts of combinations thereof. Most of whom all think that they are working for the good of humanity. Faith might as well be determined by the rolls of dice.
The only way it becomes viable, is for us to get up off our backsides and make it work. That is the great thing about Faith it needs action and not just words.
Acting for the good of all humanity has to recognize that the agency of the individual. That what a person wants for themself takes precedent over what your agency says that they ought to want for themself. That authoritarian morality is about the organization rather than the humans.

Faith tends to be derived from authoritarian values. Such as a god or group of gods.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Well, I look beyond just 'to me'. Or to one favored organization. Faith, in the world at large, leads to the whole gamut of behaviors. From thoughtfully/thoughtlessly benevolent to thoughtfully/thoughtlessly vile. And all sorts of combinations thereof. Most of whom all think that they are working for the good of humanity. Faith might as well be determined by the rolls of dice.

That is way Faith must be balanced in science and reason.

I see no way of building unity, without having an organised way to achieve it.

Without a unity, in an organised way, people can run amuck with their own views.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Acting for the good of all humanity has to recognize that the agency of the individual. That what a person wants for themself takes precedent over what your agency says that they ought to want for themself. That authoritarian morality is about the organization rather than the humans.

Faith tends to be derived from authoritarian values. Such as a god or group of gods.

The only way it can work is our submission to an elected organisation, that does set rules for all of us to live by.

Of course this is a big topic.

Regards Tony
 

ppp

Well-Known Member
That is way Faith must be balanced in science and reason.
Faith is anathema to science and reason. For faith everything is about having a conclusion and forcing everything to fit that conclusion. Anything that does not is considered to be some synonym of misguided. The only time that faith is friendly with science and reason is when science and reason just happens to not disagree with a given tenet of faith. Any other time scientists are called misguided and unreasonable.

I see no way of building unity, without having an organised way to achieve it.
I guess that depends on what type of unity you are trying to achieve. Top down, or intercultural tolerance. We are never going to have a society where everyone has the same values. Or values everything in the same way. Nor, IMHO, should we want one.

Without a unity, in an organised way, people can run amuck with their own views.
That sounds pretty authoritarian to me. But if you have something else in mind, lay it on me.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Faith is anathema to science and reason. For faith everything is about having a conclusion and forcing everything to fit that conclusion. Anything that does not is considered to be some synonym of misguided. The only time that faith is friendly with science and reason is when science and reason just happens to not disagree with a given tenet of faith. Any other time scientists are called misguided and unreasonable.

I see Faith has been around a while and has built up some bad habits. Those habits can be changed in reason and science and good Faith.

Science is relatively new, if it is to aid, it should learn from the mistakes that Faith has made, make Faith better, but should not be 'Cutting off the nose to spite the face'.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
I guess that depends on what type of unity you are trying to achieve. Top down, or intercultural tolerance. We are never going to have a society where everyone has the same values. Or values everything in the same way. Nor, IMHO, should we want one.

A unity in our diversity.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
That sounds pretty authoritarian to me. But if you have something else in mind, lay it on me.

Submission to an Authority is the only way we can and will find peace. The Authority must be just and be elected by a fair and just process.

A family does not work without the authority of parents. Nor does a tribe, or city or country work in anarchy. All must submit to the laws, or society break down.

But the laws and policies must be just and policed in justice.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Perhaps. But faith makes a terrible foundation for that organization. Theocracies are the worst.

I have not found that is so, but the Faith I have chosen has the way given and is set in fair and just methods. It also allows for the Government of humanity outside of Faith.

I wish you all the best, thanks for the chat.

RegardsTony
 

ppp

Well-Known Member
Submission to an Authority is the only way we can and will find peace. The Authority must be just and be elected by a fair and just process.

A family does not work without the authority of parents. Nor does a tribe, or city or country work in anarchy. All must submit to the laws, or society break down.

But the laws and policies must be just and policed in justice.

Regards Tony
Where are you going to find a fair and just process? And who gets to decide what constitutes 'fair and just'?
 

ppp

Well-Known Member
Allow me to preface this by saying that nobody can prove that a Messenger received communication from God, since nobody can prove that God exists. As I have been saying in this forum for years, all we have is evidence, and evidence is not the same as proof.
No. You don't. If you did, then you would be able to form a logical argument to demonstrate that.
 
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