What would be evidence that God exists?

[TransmutingSoul]

Where are you going to find a fair and just process? And who gets to decide what constitutes 'fair and just'?

We find it in our heart and eventually the majority look after the whole.

There will never be a time when the whole accepts all that happens within.

When the whole becomes unjust, I see another power, the power of what is right and just, replaces it.

The Bible talks of this as the New Heaven and New Earth.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

No. You don't. If you did, then you would be able to form a logical argument to demonstrate that.

Not everyone uses the same logic. Some even choose not to look at logic, as I see they are blinded by a science mindset. Science cannot explain everything, as it is part of what is created, it is not able to look from outside of creation.

Much like a baby in a womb, thinking it can know all that is to come.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

The only way it can work is our submission to an elected organisation, that does set rules for all of us to live by.

I would add that the only way it can work is for us to submit to the Will of God, which the divinely ordained organization represents by virtue of the Covenant of Baha'u'llah, whose Will was identical to the Will of God.

“The essence of belief in Divine unity consisteth in regarding Him Who is the Manifestation of God and Him Who is the invisible, the inaccessible, the unknowable Essence as one and the same. By this is meant that whatever pertaineth to the former, all His acts and doings, whatever He ordaineth or forbiddeth, should be considered, in all their aspects, and under all circumstances, and without any reservation, as identical with the Will of God Himself. This is the loftiest station to which a true believer in the unity of God can ever hope to attain. Blessed is the man that reacheth this station, and is of them that are steadfast in their belief.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 167

 

[Trailblazer]

No. You don't. If you did, then you would be able to form a logical argument to demonstrate that.

Sorry, a logical argument cannot demonstrate that a Messenger received communication from God, and that is why I was not making a logical argument to try to prove it. Nobody can ever demonstrate that Messengers received communication for God as they are the only ones who experienced that.

God is immeasurably exalted above all His creatures, and Messengers of God are on a level far above any ordinary human being, and as such human logic is totally inadequate as a method to demonstrate that God or Messengers exist. If logic could prove God exists everyone would believe in God.

 

[Trailblazer]

So claiming as a defense of your claims someone else is using a logical fallacy is not using logic?

Pointing out a logical fallacy is not using logic to prove that my beliefs are true.

 

[McBell]

Pointing out a logical fallacy is not using logic to prove that my beliefs are true.

Why the need to point out fallacies at all if logic doe snot apply to your beliefs?

 

[ppp]

Not everyone uses the same logic.

Logic is a standard set of processes. If they are not using one of those processes, they are not using logic. They are doing something else.

Some even choose not to look at logic, as I see they are blinded by a science mindset.

Thank you for vividly demonstrating my earlier point:

Faith is anathema to science and reason. For faith everything is about having a conclusion and forcing everything to fit that conclusion. Anything that does not is considered to be some synonym of misguided. The only time that faith is friendly with science and reason is when science and reason just happens to not disagree with a given tenet of faith. Any other time scientists are called misguided and unreasonable.

Much like a baby in a womb, thinking it can know all that is to come.

That is either your religious propaganda, or your ignorance borne out of your religious propaganda. You are the one claiming absolutes. You are the one lacking evidence and avoiding rational processes. You are the one trying to claim dominion. You are the one who is trying to claim an unearned moral authority. You are the one trying to claim virtue in certitude. You are the one who is cloaking oppression with benevolence.

Hey, when you become an Evil Overlord in your Dark Theocracy, be sure that you ventilation ducts are too small to crawl through.

 

[ppp]

Sorry, a logical argument cannot demonstrate that a Messenger received communication from God, and that is why I was not making a logical argument to try to prove it. Nobody can ever demonstrate that Messengers received communication for God as they are the only ones who experienced that.

Okay. That in no way contradicts what I just said.

 

[Trailblazer]

Why the need to point out fallacies at all if logic doe snot apply to your beliefs?

Tit for tat.

 

[Trailblazer]

Okay. That in no way contradicts what I just said.

Seems to me it does.

 

[ppp]

Seems to me it does.

Well, bless your heart.

 

[CG Didymus]

What atheists do not like is the IDEA of Messengers, period. It would not matter of they walked on water, metaphorically speaking

Without those sorts of claims about Jesus, I wonder how many would believe him? But his followers swore they saw him do those things.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I would add that the only way it can work is for us to submit to the Will of God, which the divinely ordained organization represents by virtue of the Covenant of Baha'u'llah, whose Will was identical to the Will of God.

“The essence of belief in Divine unity consisteth in regarding Him Who is the Manifestation of God and Him Who is the invisible, the inaccessible, the unknowable Essence as one and the same. By this is meant that whatever pertaineth to the former, all His acts and doings, whatever He ordaineth or forbiddeth, should be considered, in all their aspects, and under all circumstances, and without any reservation, as identical with the Will of God Himself. This is the loftiest station to which a true believer in the unity of God can ever hope to attain. Blessed is the man that reacheth this station, and is of them that are steadfast in their belief.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 167

I see it that way too, but I see the lesser peace will be a unity in Diversity under a World Government where all will not accept Baha'u'llah. But..I see the World Government, will be looking for guidance from the Universal House of Justice.

As such they may follow the laws of the Nations and World Body, but not follow all guidance given by Baha'u'llah.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

I see the world will show us how, as not considering what God has offered, was a grave mistake.

I wonder how far the world has to deteriorate, until some choose to consider the good advice that was available in the 1800's and 1900's.

Regards Tony

What were the world leaders supposed to do? Relinquish their position and let Baha'u'llah reign as leader of the world? Then for ordinary people the choice is no more sex until you're married, no alcohol or drugs. Gays, trans, lesbians are not "normal" and that behavior is forbidden. So I don't think a lot of people are ready to stop doing the things they do and live by Baha'i laws... until it gets so bad we have no choice.

 

[Trailblazer]

I see it that way too, but I see the lesser peace will be a unity in Diversity under a World Government where all will not accept Baha'u'llah. But..I see the World Government, will be looking for guidance from the Universal House of Justice.

As such they may follow the laws of the Nations and World Body, but not follow all guidance given by Baha'u'llah.

So you envision the secular World Government as looking for guidance from the Universal House of Justice, but the Nations and World Body may or may not follow the guidance given by Baha'u'llah?

But what about this?

“My object is none other than the betterment of the world and the tranquillity of its peoples. The well-being of mankind, its peace and security, are unattainable unless and until its unity is firmly established. This unity can never be achieved so long as the counsels which the Pen of the Most High hath revealed are suffered to pass unheeded.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 286

 

[CG Didymus]

Yes, they could or they could choose to investigate one of the other 1000s of people claiming similar things. Since you make claims on behalf on Baha'u'llah, wouldn't it be more fair that you present convincing evidence than everyone else having to do it?

Let's imagine a person is being trialed for a murder, and make the statement "I didn't murder anyone", would you trust such statement? Ignore anything else about the person, simply look at the statement and the fact that the person being accused is the one making it.

Many of us have look at some of the teachings, claims and "fulfilled" prophecy and don't believe it 100%. Are all their claims and beliefs absolutely, without a doubt true? I can't say that. And anyone joining the Baha'i Faith that doesn't believe it 100% is going to do what? Ignore the things they have questions about? But does anyone really have 100% surety in anything about any religious claim or belief? We need more and better evidence from those that say they believe. There is only so much of the flowery language I can take.

 

[Trailblazer]

Without those sorts of claims about Jesus, I wonder how many would believe him? But his followers swore they saw him do those things.

I would believe in Jesus even if He did not ;perform miracles and I think there are some Christians who feel the same way.
I believe that Jesus did perform miracles, but it makes sense to me that the greatest miracle is what Jesus was able to accomplish in His short lifetime, as Abdu'l-Baha said on this chapter: 22: MIRACLES

“But in the day of the Manifestation the people with insight see that all the conditions of the Manifestation are miracles, for They are superior to all others, and this alone is an absolute miracle. Recollect that Christ, solitary and alone, without a helper or protector, without armies and legions, and under the greatest oppression, uplifted the standard of God before all the people of the world, and withstood them, and finally conquered all, although outwardly He was crucified. Now this is a veritable miracle which can never be denied. There is no need of any other proof of the truth of Christ…” Some Answered Questions, p. 101

 

[CG Didymus]

"I didn't make the claim about Jesus, the apostle did, so ask them",

Exactly, and what did the apostles say about Jesus? For one thing that he rose from the dead and they saw him and talked to him. But do Baha'is believe that claim?

 

[CG Didymus]

Without a unity, in an organised way, people can run amuck with their own views.

The only way it can work is our submission to an elected organisation, that does set rules for all of us to live by.

Submission to an Authority is the only way we can and will find peace. The Authority must be just and be elected by a fair and just process.

A family does not work without the authority of parents. Nor does a tribe, or city or country work in anarchy. All must submit to the laws, or society break down.

But the laws and policies must be just and policed in justice.

And when has there ever been a religious organization that hasn't run amuck? If people are involved, there will always be problems. Even Baha'is have had to kick out some of its leaders who tried to take control. And with LSA's and Christian churches, in places where I lived, there were people that had affairs. So trust them to judge fairly on things other people have done?

 

[CG Didymus]

That sounds pretty authoritarian to me. But if you have something else in mind, lay it on me.

What could go wrong with a religion that forbids alcohol, homosexuality and, until a person marries, all sex. In fact, I think there is a law about how long a man can have his hair.