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What would be evidence that God exists?

Trailblazer

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
TagliatelliMonster said:
A belief, is the accepting of a claim as true.
It is impossible to express a belief, without making the claim that is being believed.
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I do not claim I believe it, I SAY I believe it.

I do not CLAIM anything, Baha’u’llah made the claim. I believe His claim.
TagliatelliMonster said:
This doesn't change the fact that a belief is the acceptance of a claim as true.
This doesn't change the fact that expressing a belief can only be done by making the claim that is being believed.
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I SAY I believe it, I do not claim I believe it.

You are just trying to turn what I say into a claim so you can say I have the burden of proof, but I do not claim anything because I know I cannot prove my beliefs are true.

I said: Allow me to preface this by saying that nobody can prove that a Messenger received communication from God, since nobody can prove that God exists. As I have been saying in this forum for years, all we have is evidence, and evidence is not the same as proof.
TagliatelliMonster said:
Claims have a burden of proof. No matter if you aren't trying to convince someone. No matter if you don't care about supporting it. Claims still have a burden of proof. You not wanting or not being able to meet that burden, doesn't change that.
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I make no claims. Baha’u’llah made the claims and he provided proof to back up His claims.

“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106
 
Trailblazer

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
TagliatelliMonster said:
A belief, is the acceptance of a claim as true.
Thus belief includes a claim.
Click to expand...
A belief does not include a claim.

Baha’u’llah made a claim; He does not believe his own claim, He knows His claim is true and he provided evidence to back up His claim. He would not have made a claim if He had no evidence to back up His claim.
TagliatelliMonster said:
You can not.
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I certainly can have a belief without making a claim and that is exactly what I do.
TagliatelliMonster said:
You make a claim every time you express a belief. A belief, by definition, is the acceptance of a claim as being true.
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That’s right, I accept the claim as being true, but I do not assert that it is the case and I never say it is a fact.
TagliatelliMonster said:
Claim: state or assert that something is the case, typically without providing evidence or proof.
claim means - Google Search

Claim: to say that something is true or is a fact, although you cannot prove it and other people might not believe it:
CLAIM | definition in the Cambridge English Dictionary
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But I never did that. I said I believe that it is true; I did not state or assert that it is true and I never said it is true or is a fact

I said: Allow me to preface this by saying that nobody can prove that a Messenger received communication from God, since nobody can prove that God exists. As I have been saying in this forum for years, all we have is evidence, and evidence is not the same as proof.
 
McBell

McBell

Unbound
Trailblazer said:
A belief does not include a claim.

Baha’u’llah made a claim; He does not believe his own claim, He knows His claim is true and he provided evidence to back up His claim. He would not have made a claim if He had no evidence to back up His claim.

I certainly can have a belief without making a claim and that is exactly what I do.

That’s right, I accept the claim as being true, but I do not assert that it is the case and I never say it is a fact.

But I never did that. I said I believe that it is true; I did not state or assert that it is true and I never said it is true or is a fact

I said: Allow me to preface this by saying that nobody can prove that a Messenger received communication from God, since nobody can prove that God exists. As I have been saying in this forum for years, all we have is evidence, and evidence is not the same as proof.
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You are doing an awful lot mental gymnastics just to avoid logic.
 
McBell

McBell

Unbound
Trailblazer said:
Nope.

Say: utter words so as to convey information, an opinion, a feeling or intention, or an instruction.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=say+means

Claim: state or assert that something is the case, typically without providing evidence or proof.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=claim+means
Click to expand...
four.jpeg
 
Trailblazer

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Joe W said:
Yep.
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So I guess you think you know more than all the online dictionaries?
I make no claims. Baha'u'llah made the claims and provided evidence to back up His claims.
I believe He was a Messenger of God because of the evidence.
I do not claim that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God because I cannot prove it to anyone except myself.
 
Trailblazer

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Muffled said:
I believe I am evidence that God exists. True messengers are also but the B man isn't one of them.
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You are welcome to your beliefs but if you are asserting that Baha'u'llah is not a Messenger of God, that would be an argument from ignorance, since you cannot prove that is true.

Argument from ignorance asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false or proposition is false because it has not yet been proven true. This represents a type of false dichotomy in that it excludes a third option, which is that there may have been an insufficient investigation, and therefore there is insufficient information to prove the proposition be either true or false. Nor does it allow the admission that the choices may in fact not be two (true or false), but may be as many as four,
  1. true
  2. false
  3. unknown between true or false
  4. being unknowable (among the first three).[1]
Argument from ignorance - Wikipedia
 
Trailblazer

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Muffled said:
If I tell you God can change your life then He has to be able to change your life. A falsified God can't do that. That is why Christianity is replete with testimonials of God changing peoples lives.
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Can you prove that God changed their lives?
If not, that is another argument from ignorance.

Argument from ignorance asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false or proposition is false because it has not yet been proven true. This represents a type of false dichotomy in that it excludes a third option, which is that there may have been an insufficient investigation, and therefore there is insufficient information to prove the proposition be either true or false.
Argument from ignorance - Wikipedia

Testimonials do not prove anything because anyone can say God changed their life, but proving it is another matter.
 
Trailblazer

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
CG Didymus said:
So I don't think a lot of people are ready to stop doing the things they do and live by Baha'i laws... until it gets so bad we have no choice.
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Have you watched the news lately?
Not to mention Covid-19 and a President that is off his rocker, the freaking country is burning down... the smoke from CA and OR is so bad up here I can barely breathe... The calamities are here and they are only going to get worse.

How long are we going to wait? ;)

Lights of Guidance/Calamities and Crisis - Bahaiworks, a library of works about the Bahá’í Faith
 
Trailblazer

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Mestemia said:
you do know that this is a claim of making no claims, right?
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Get a dictionary.

I say I am making no claims. I do not assert that something is the case, typically without providing evidence or proof.

Say: utter words so as to convey information, an opinion, a feeling or intention, or an instruction.
say means - Google Search

Claim: state or assert that something is the case, typically without providing evidence or proof.
claim means - Google Search
 
McBell

McBell

Unbound
Trailblazer said:
Get a dictionary.

I say I am making no claims. I do not assert that something is the case, typically without providing evidence or proof.

Say: utter words so as to convey information, an opinion, a feeling or intention, or an instruction.
say means - Google Search

Claim: state or assert that something is the case, typically without providing evidence or proof.
claim means - Google Search
Click to expand...
You really should try for better reading comprehension.

Because you keep asserting you are not making claims.

assertdefinition.png
 
Trailblazer

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Mestemia said:
two more...
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The claim that Baha'u'llah made has already been provided in His Writings.

Imprisonment and revelation
While in prison, Bahá'u'lláh had a vision of the 'Most Great Spirit' in the form of a heavenly maiden who assured him of his divine mission and promised divine assistance. ... It stands at the heart of Bahá'u'lláh's claim to be the Manifestation of God.Sep 28, 2009
Religions - Bahai: Bahá'u'lláh - BBC

Logic will not be provided because claims cannot be proven with logical arguments.
 
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