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What would be evidence that God exists?

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
That is just a claim, the proof is in my scriptures, so your religion must be wrong :D
Well, I hate to argue religion. And actually I don't, but you're the one that is wrong. You have made a claim that something will happen in 2035... prove it. Yeah, what proof do you have? My religion says it will happen in 2034 which makes so much more sense, because the way things are going, it is bound to happen in fourteen years, not in fifteen as you claim.

Besides, my religion has never made a false claim. When it said that there will be many wars in the world. It came true. When it said, "things will be heating up", they were right. That is a perfectly fulfilled prophecy of global warming and the many fires we've been seeing in places all around the world. And don't tell me that was taken out of context just because the full quote says, "Have you turned the furnace on?" "Yes, it will be heating up shortly." "Thank you." Sure not a word for word quote, but it all fits... if you look with spiritual eyes and not with your blind as a bat worldly eyes. Besides, what prophecies have you fulfilled lately? Hah, got you there. 'Cause everybody knows your prophecies are false. IMHO

Actually Nimos, this is scary. That's exaggerated, but isn't that how so many of these "debates" between religious people sound?
 

PureX

Veteran Member
I agree. But the fact that you do not apprehend everything is not the same as knowing nothing. That whatever the you know about me that is correct, is knowing something that is real.
Is it? I don't see how either one of us could know that with any degree of surety. It's all just subjective opinion, really. What we call "reality" is really just an elaborate opinion we've arrived at based on our own particular experiences and our own particular methods of reasoning. None are more right or wrong than any other. Some are just more functionally effective than others.
I think that you are trying to use the word Truth where I am simply using the word reality. Is this simply a dance around what to call that which is? Or is there actually some conceptual difference?
The problem is that Truth is 'what is', while "reality" is what we think 'is', is. We cannot know Truth (what is) because it is the whole of it, and we human have no idea what that even means, really. We cannot comprehend the whole of it. What little of the whole of it that we can apprehend is itself a mystery to us. But that doesn't stop us from creating our own ideas of the whole of it even though we know those ideas must logically be quite wrong, and incomplete. But they're all we have, so we make them, and hold onto them as if they were Truth. Those ideas are what we call "reality". And they are all subjective, and all different relative to each of us. There are similarities, because we are all humans, but they are also all similarly wrong, and similarly incomplete, to a degree that is completely unknown and unknowable to us.
There can be some additional subjective fuzz. And probably will be. But the substance of both experiences must be an objective reality. Otherwise you are claiming that everyone has a randomly consistent overlap of imagined subjective experience. Which is, to use your word, absurd.
The problem is that you think "imagined experiences" aren't "real experiences", when in fact, they are all the same experience. Until you grasp this, you will not understand what I'm saying. "Reality" IS IMAGINED. We are imagining it. And we are all imagining it somewhat the same, and somewhat differently. Our experiences become part of our imagined realities as we experience them. For we humans, there is no "real vs, imagined". Reality IS imagined.

Yes, we are experiencing SOMETHING. But all we'll ever know of what that something is, is what we THINK WE KNOW of it. What we IMAGINE to be true about it. We can all call that something "objective reality" if we want to, but in the end that doesn't mean anything, because we will never know what it is, or what it means beyond what we imagine it to be, and to mean.
Truth, as I use it, is merely a label for what can be demonstrated to be the case using logic backed by evidence.
Logic backed by evidence is mostly just smoke and mirrors. All they really add up to is relative functionality. If something 'works' according to our expectations and biases, we deem it "true". If it doesn't we deem it "false". And then we pretend that we discovered some Truth. Its all quite silly and childish, really, if we think about it. But then what else can we do? We are minds trapped in brains trapped in bodies trapped in time and space. The view from in here is very restricted!
 
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CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Murder is unlawful killing.
So when God ordered the death penalty for various behaviors... like adultery, homosexuality or breaking the Sabbath by doing "work"... that's okay. That's not murder. When God told Jacob to have his men kill all the men, women and children in a city, that was not murder. When God told the Hebrew warriors to draw their swords and kill the soldier next to them that was not murder. All of those were lawful killings. What was God's purpose in those laws and in those orders to kill people? Did God accomplish his goal by having those people killed?
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
It is different because we have no clergy. Clergy are different because they have a job they are hired for and paid for. All positions of leadership in the Bahai Faith are democratically elected and not salaried.
Here's one definition that could apply to Baha'is too. "Clergy are formal leaders within established religions. Their roles and functions vary in different religious traditions, but usually involve presiding over specific rituals and teaching their religion's doctrines and practices."

But, with Baha'i leaders they all work for free? Even the UHJ? So they do their UHJ business that have a day job in town? How about traveling teachers? They don't get some money to support their teaching efforts?

In the future, when in a city there might be thousands of Baha'is, there will be no paid people to do the work of running the affairs of the Baha'is in that city? Or, there will be lots of paid staff, but the actual elected leaders won't get paid? And they will have enough time to work a paying job and do their Baha'i duties? Oh, and the travel expenses weren't paid for a Hand of the Cause to go give a speech somewhere?
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
God already did that.
Too bad people cannot get up off their *** and read what God has revealed for THIS age in history.
Too back people are STILL mired in the past with their face in the Bible, and they wonder why they are confused
Can't blame God for that because humans have free will. :rolleyes:
It's confusing. We have all the religions of other cultures that we never even include as being real or being from one true God. We have the multiple beliefs of Hinduism that have many Gods and many incarnations of Gods. Buddhism, I don't know. Do they really even believe in a God like how the Baha'is define God. Zoroastrianism? The little I've read sounds like they have a good God and an evil God battling it out. Then there are the Abrahamic religions. One God, and they still give confusing messages about that one God.

And people with their face in the Bible are not confused. They might be wrong and probably are. But, they know exactly what is going on... according to their interpretation of the Bible... all the many sects, denominations and other groups of Christians. Each is not confused, but different than the other Christian groups. Which can be confusing. Baha'is eliminate all confusion by kicking out all people that don't believe in the true version of the Baha'i Faith. And still, things said by individual Baha'is can be confusing.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Since the "Dawn" of the new day we've had two world wars and the threat of a third that could include nuclear exchanges. The economy and climate problems could put the whole world in chaos. It sure sounds similar to the "Woes" and tribulations of the Book of Revelation. And like I've told Baha'is again and again, Jesus, or the "Christ", which ever you prefer, doesn't come until after the bad stuff.
Can you post those verses from the Book of Revelation that say that Christ will not return until after the bad stuff?

Even if Baha'u'llah was not the return of Christ, the same Jesus who walked the earth 2000 years ago is not coming back to earth, period. I have posted the verses that show that so many times I have them memorized.
I don't have a problem with the Baha'is being right and the world turns to them and Baha'is actually do something to fix things. Or, that, as improbable as it sounds, that Jesus comes back and fixes things. Right now, I have little faith in what Baha'is or Christians are doing and saying.
I do not really know what it is you expect the Baha'is do that they are not already doing? How much do you think a religion that is such a minuscule share of the world population can do?
Pilgrim Notes
recorded after the nightly dinner-table talks of the beloved Guardian, Shoghi Effendi
19-28 April 1957
by Isobel Sabri

The Lesser Peace will come in the Formative Age, in this century. The unified outer world must be merged with the Baha’i World Order. This will begin the spiritualization of the world.​

So if I put my "faith" in something that Abdul Baha or Shoghi Effendi said to a pilgrim, that is wrong. But you put your "faith" in a Baha'i who knows Persian and says that the word meant "age" not "century"? So there are errors in translations of things that Abdul Baha has said? Great. But how about what Isobel Sabri said about Shoghi Effendi? That was in English.
The Formative Age is not "this century" because an age is not a century, so the Formative age is not the 20th century.
Those are pilgrim's notes, not authoritative Baha'i Writings. That could easily have been recorded incorrectly.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
So when God ordered the death penalty for various behaviors... like adultery, homosexuality or breaking the Sabbath by doing "work"... that's okay. That's not murder.

If it is from God, who am to say it is not right?

God is all knowing and knows what is best for us as God knows our our past and future and gives us guidance to achieve our potential.

Also, I do not think all these are necessarily 100% physical events and will give my ideas in my next response.

Regards Tony
 

ppp

Well-Known Member
The problem is that Truth is 'what is', while "reality" is what we think 'is', is.
No. Reality is what is. Truth is our assessment of what is. ;)

And the reason that you are using truth instead of reality, is because "Truth" implies some sort of inseparable or indivisible whole. The term has a mystical or mysterious air about it. But no. Reality is what is. It's just a complex collection of interacting components and effects. I may or may not be able to know all of the pieces. But there is nothing that prevents me from knowing that a rock exists. Or that the rock is big, or hard or rolling. Even if I do not know a kerjillion other things.

The problem is that you think "imagined experiences" aren't "real experiences", when in fact, they are all the same experience.
No. I do think that imagined experiences are real experiences. What I do not buy are the imagined explanations for the experiences, when those explanations are not backed up by evidence. I hope that you understand the difference between having an experience, and having a justified explanation for the experience.

Until you grasp this, you will not understand what I'm saying. "Reality" IS IMAGINED. We are imagining it. And we are all imagining it somewhat the same, and somewhat differently. Our experiences become part of our imagined realities as we experience them. For we humans, there is no "real vs, imagined". Reality IS imagined.
I grasp what you are saying. It is a position I held for a short while. What I am saying is that you are wrong, for the reasons that I have already supplied in prior posts.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
But thanks for trying to convince us of the truth of the Baha'i Faith. Sorry, I forgot again. That's not what Baha'is do. They don't try and convince anyone of anything. But thanks for trying anyway.
I cannot speak for any other Baha'is, but I am not trying to convince anyone of anything. I just respond to posts.
If atheists say I am not convincing maybe that is because I am not trying to convince them. ;)
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
I do not really know what it is you expect the Baha'is do that they are not already doing?
In the 70's, the Baha'is were really going strong... I thought. I was told that whole villages become Baha'is. My Baha'i friends, and I went with them several times, went to Indian Reservations. And they expected that the many people would hear the word and join. In the 80's there were lots of Peace and Environmental groups seeking change and putting the end to war and destruction of the environment. The Baha'is put out the Peace Statement. I was with some Baha'i friend that took part in the "Hands Across America". The Peace statement was more than 30 years ago. What is happening now? What happened to those villages of Baha'is? What is happening with the thousands and thousand of East Indian Baha'is? What happened to the Mass Teaching Projects?

But even then, only a few Baha'is would do firesides at their house. Very few would go on the teaching projects. There was a disconnect between the LSA members and some of the people in their community... one of my friends was one of them. If we look, closely, at the Baha'i communities, will we find an example of peace and unity?
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
When God told Jacob to have his men kill all the men, women and children in a city, that was not murder. When God told the Hebrew warriors to draw their swords and kill the soldier next to them that was not murder. All of those were lawful killings. What was God's purpose in those laws and in those orders to kill people? Did God accomplish his goal by having those people killed?

To me the Word of God gives life and death. Life to those that accept the Word and change their life to be in Harmony with that word and death to those that choose not to heed it in any way.

So when one draws the sword of the tounge, the result is just the same as drawing a material sword, if submission is not shown to the sword bearer, death results.

Many of those stories, to me, are embelished in the material explanation to state truth with more impact, to encourage soulful search.

Much like this Hidden Word, which Baha'u'llah offers as the essence of some past teachings;

“72: O MY SERVANT! Thou art even as a finely tempered sword concealed…”

O MY SERVANT! Thou art even as a finely tempered sword concealed in the darkness of its sheath and its value hidden from the artificer’s knowledge. Wherefore come forth from the sheath of self and desire that thy worth may be made resplendent and manifest unto all the world."

So in 3000 years, are we going to think people were swords in sheaths?

Regards Tony
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
The believers aren't that much different than us "sinners".
Don't you know what the Christians say? We are all sinners.

That is in the Baha'i Long Obligatory Prayer, so you see, Baha'is agree with the Christians.

Thou seest, O my Lord, this wretched creature knocking at the door of Thy grace, and this evanescent soul seeking the river of everlasting life from the hands of Thy bounty.

O God, my God! My back is bowed by the burden of my sins, and my heedlessness hath destroyed me. Whenever I ponder my evil doings and Thy benevolence, my heart melteth within me, and my blood boileth in my veins.

By Thy might! My trespasses have kept me back from drawing nigh unto Thee; and my sins have held me far from the court of Thy holiness. Thy love, O my Lord, hath enriched me, and separation from Thee hath destroyed me, and remoteness from Thee hath consumed me.


These are just excerpts. The entire prayer can be read here: Long Obligatory Prayer
 
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