What would be evidence that God exists?

[Trailblazer]

You talk about evidence and you cannot even see the evidence staring you in the face.

Claims aren't evidence.
Claims require evidence.

That’s right, claims are not evidence, but there is evidence that backs up “some” claims.

Sure, the Bible has problems as it was not written by Messengers of God, but it was the closest to the Word of God that we had until the Writings of Baha’u’llah came along.

This is a claim. Can you support it?

It is not MY claim that the Writings of Baha’u’llah are the Word of God, it was Baha’u’llah’s claim.

It is MY belief that the Writings of Baha’u’llah are the Word of God.

Baha’u’llah claimed that He was the Voice of God so that would make what He wrote the Word of God. I believe His claim because of the evidence that indicates that He was telling the truth.

“Attract the hearts of men, through the call of Him, the one alone Beloved. Say: This is the Voice of God, if ye do but hearken. This is the Day Spring of the Revelation of God, did ye but know it. This is the Dawning-Place of the Cause of God, were ye to recognize it. This is the Source of the commandment of God, did ye but judge it fairly. This is the manifest and hidden Secret; would that ye might perceive it.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 33

Baha’u’llah provided evidence to back up His claim (as i noted in a previous post). Whether people accept the evidence He offered is another matter. A man might pull into my driveway today and tell me he has a Mercedes He wants me to accept for free, but I might tell him I am not accepting it because I do not like the Mercedes.Yes, plenty.

 

[ppp]

Did the Jews Accuse Jesus of Claiming to Be “God” or “a God”?

(To see a titled list of over fifty, two-three page posts (easily accessible) about the Bible not saying Jesus is God, click here.)

Yeah, I knew that. Thanks.

Quotes that say the opposite does not make the other passages go away. It just means that the Bible is a contradictory mess.

 

[CG Didymus]

I accept the resurrection and the virgin birth.

I see Baha'u'llah explained them in detail and confirmed the Bible is sure Spiritual guidance.

The only way, according to Baha'is, that the Bible is in any way "sure" guidance is if we take the Baha'i interpretation of it. Like the resurrection, Christians say it literally happened. Baha'is don't say that and they don't believe that. Baha'is believe their interpretation of what is meant by "resurrection"... and it ain't a literal, physical one. Baha'is have said that the body of Jesus died, got buried and stayed buried and rotted away. I would hope Baha'is could be more open and honest about their beliefs.

The Bible is a sure guide? How old was Adam when he died? Was he the first man. Did God create him out of dust? Did God curse him for disobedience? Any of the Creation story you believe really happened? Have you read Chronicles or Kings? Which do you like better? Have you read the Book of Enoch or Nephilim? Do you think what they say really happened?

 

[Trailblazer]

Just like the schizofrenic can't prove to anyone that he really hears voices, except to himself.

Not saying you're a schizofrenic, but the logic behind this, should make you think.

I think it should make you think, and you might ask yourself why a person cannot prove to someone else that their religious beliefs are true.....

But that does not mean they are not true.
Proof is not what makes anything true.
Truth exists independently of anyone's ability to prove it.

It is true that the schizophrenic actually hears voices. Just because you do not hear them that does not mean he does not hear them.

Similarly, it is true that there is evidence that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God. Just because you do not accept the evidence does not mean it does not exist.

 

[CG Didymus]

Correct, I believe the claims of Baha’u’llah.

Correct, I accept Baha’u’llah’s claim as true.

That says it all in a nutshell, so that is a great post.

So you guys don't claim that Baha'u'llah is a manifestation? You guys say it. You believe it. And you accept his claims. But there is nothing you can claim is true about him?

 

[Trailblazer]

It just means that the Bible is a contradictory mess.

I'll second that.

Long ago, a Baha'i I knew from another forum called the Bible an "unmapped swamp."
I never understood what he meant until I started trying to navigate through the swamp.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So like Jesus is born of the Holy Spirit and is not God! Wouldn't that still make him morally righteous by nature and absolutely incapable of sin? And yet the Bible is clear that Salvation is only through Jesus and that he is a Lord having done what the Bible says he did.

Also does Bahullah claim to be a manifestation of God and thus a son of God? The Bible refers to Jesus as the only begotten son.

The best way to explain this is that all God's Messengers are Born of the Holy Spirit. Even though we see all of them have been born in this Material world of a mother.

It is God that gives the Holy Spirit and that is seen in Attributes, the Holy Spirit is not the Essence of God, it is the Essence of the Manifestation. Thus to me Jesus was Christ, 'Annointed' of all the attributes. They are the standard of perfection, free of sin.

So salvation is through Christ, not through the Flesh and Jesus taught that with passion, as it is not flesh that is born again, we must be born again into the spirit of Christ.

Remember what Peter answer when Jesus asked Peter who He was. Peter answered you are Christ.

It was Jesus that came in the Station of Christ as the Son, Baha'u'llah ame in the station of Christ as the Father, who was promised by Jesus. Jesus said that He wrote upon us the New Name, those that accepted Him.

Big topic, many passages in the Bible are relevant in that explanation.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Quotes that say the opposite does not make the other passages go away. It just means that the Bible is a contradictory mess.

I see man made it a mess, by adding their own explanations.

To me It becomes much clearer when we consider these 5 things.

1) There is only One God, above the knowledge of man and even above the knowledge of the Messenger given by God.
2) Christ is a Station of the Holy Spirit, given by God.
3) Jesus as Christ, is all we can know of God, in attributes, not Essence.
4) Christ (Annointed One) is the Station given to all God's Messengers, in each age given a different name and suited to the age it was given.
5) Jesus and all the Messengers flesh bodies are not God, their Essence of the Holy Spirit, is all we can know of God.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

The problems you mentioned (forrest fires and covid19) that are faced in the world today, are child's play to what humanity faced in the past.

The black plague for example was thousands of times worse. The spanish flu. World wars.

And just like those viruses, this one too will pass (with far less casualties then the other 2 mentioned) and humanity will go on.

I agree that humanity will go on, as I am not Christian who believes in the end of the world. However, I do not believe that humanity will go on as it has gone on in the past because I believe this is an entirely new age, the likes of which humanity has never seen in the past.

Also, that your faith makes you feel "comfortable", is not an argument. At best it's an appeal to emotion, which is a fallacy. Things aren't correct just because they make you "feel good".

Of course things are not correct because they make me feel good, but who said anything about being comfortable or feeling good?

Joe W said: I'm just saying its irrelevant to me. So it must just be for your benefit.

Trailblazer said: For my benefit and for the benefit of everyone who believes what I do.

What is for my benefit and for the benefit of everyone is not what is comfortable or what feels good.

What might feel good were I to believe it is that Jesus us going to return and fix everything that is wrong in the world so I won't have to do anything, but I cannot believe that because there is no evidence that indicates that Jesus is coming. So I am stuck being a Baha'i and having the responsibilities I have to be part of building a new world order, which is anything but easy, if take my responsibilities seriously.

Comfortable? It would be much easier to be an atheist.

 

[osgart]

The best way to explain this is that all God's Messengers are Born of the Holy Spirit. Even though we see all of them have been born in this Material world of a mother.

It is God that gives the Holy Spirit and that is seen in Attributes, the Holy Spirit is not the Essence of God, it is the Essence of the Manifestation. Thus to me Jesus was Christ, 'Annointed' of all the attributes. They are the standard of perfection, free of sin.

So salvation is through Christ, not through the Flesh and Jesus taught that with passion, as it is not flesh that is born again, we must be born again into the spirit of Christ.

Remember what Peter answer when Jesus asked Peter who He was. Peter answered you are Christ.

It was Jesus that came in the Station of Christ as the Son, Baha'u'llah ame in the station of Christ as the Father, who was promised by Jesus. Jesus said that He wrote upon us the New Name, those that accepted Him.

Big topic, many passages in the Bible are relevant in that explanation.

Regards Tony

Well the Father in the Bible is the very God. So the claim is that Bahullah is God then; being the Father?

Not to mention that somehow Ba'hai people try to reconcile all religious texts as manifestations of God given for each stage of humanity.

So Bahullah, as you might say, is ushering in a stage of humanity that is spiritual maturity. But that comes with a warning not to regress into perilous times. Did I get that right?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So you guys don't claim that Baha'u'llah is a manifestation? You guys say it. You believe it. And you accept his claims. But there is nothing you can claim is true about him?

You did not quote all Trailblazer posted, which explained the question you just asked.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

Many are of the that mindset.

Truer words were never spoken, and not only regarding the nature of Jesus.

“If a man were to declare, ‘There is a lamp in the next room which gives no light’, one hearer might be satisfied with his report, but a wiser man goes into the room to judge for himself, and behold, when he finds the light shining brilliantly in the lamp, he knows the truth!” Paris Talks, p. 103

 

[Trailblazer]

But it is impossible to argue or debate the Bible with Baha'is, because they can always say something was not meant literally.

And Christians can say the same thing.

But then, like I'm sure the many quotes where Jesus says he is not God, those Baha'i do say are literal.

How could we make them symbolic? What would they be symbolic of?

 

[ppp]

I see man made it a mess, by adding their own explanations.

To me It becomes much clearer when we consider these 5 things.

You're just a man adding to the mess with your own explanations.
You are of course free to disagree with me. You have to walk your own path, however unwise.

 

[ppp]

I'll second that.

Long ago, a Baha'i I knew from another forum called the Bible an "unmapped swamp."
I never understood what he meant until I started trying to navigate through the swamp.

I know an atheist who calls it the Big Book of Multiple Choice. That's about the size of it.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You're just a man adding to the mess with your own explanations.
You are of course free to disagree with me. You have to walk your own path, however unwise.

I am happy to leave it at that.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

So you guys don't claim that Baha'u'llah is a manifestation? You guys say it. You believe it. And you accept his claims. But there is nothing you can claim is true about him?

We cannot claim it because we cannot prove it.
That is why we say we believe it.
We believe it is true.

 

[Trailblazer]

And yet the Bible is clear that Salvation is only through Jesus and that he is a Lord having done what the Bible says he did.

Salvation was only through Jesus during the Dispensation of Jesus Christ because Jesus was the only way to the Father, according to the Bible....

John 14:6 “Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”

Baha'is believe that we are now living in the the Dispensation of Baha'u'llah, so Baha'u'llah is the way to the Father, and Baha'u'llah came to confer salvation upon all of humanity.

“Wert thou to consider, for but a little while, the outward works and doings of Him Who is the Eternal Truth, thou wouldst fall down upon the ground, and exclaim: O Thou Who art the Lord of Lords! I testify that Thou art the Lord of all creation, and the Educator of all beings, visible and invisible. I bear witness that Thy power hath encompassed the entire universe, and that the hosts of the earth can never dismay Thee, nor can the dominion of all peoples and nations deter Thee from executing Thy purpose. I confess that Thou hast no desire except the regeneration of the whole world, and the establishment of the unity of its peoples, and the salvation of all them that dwell therein.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 243

Dispensation

1. the divine ordering of the affairs of the world.
2. an appointment, arrangement, or favor, as by God.
3. a divinely appointed order or age:

e.g. the old Mosaic, or Jewish, dispensation; the new gospel, or Christian, dispensation.

Definition of dispensation | Dictionary.com

 

[Trailblazer]

I know an atheist who calls it the Big Book of Multiple Choice. That's about the size of it.

Funny thing though, Christians believe there is only one correct answer to the Multiple Choice.

 

[ppp]

Funny thing though, Christians believe there is only one correct answer to the Multiple Choice.

What?! Where on this entire Earth did you get that idea?!?