What would be evidence that God exists?

[Trailblazer]

But I don't think that's what happens. They need to be there on the job for the Baha'i Faith whenever they are needed. And, someday, that might be 24 hours a day. Like Shoghi Effendi I'd imagine didn't have a day job outside of being the Guardian of the Baha'i Faith.

No, I do not think Shoghi Effendi had a day job, but he was the Guardian of the whole Baha'i Faith.

I cannot say what will happen in the future. I think those who serve in the LSA can manage a day job but quite honestly I do not know how those on the NSA can manage a day job, especially if they also have a family.

 

[Trailblazer]

All positions of leadership in the Baha'i Faith are elected and not salaried?

As far as I know the elected positions are not salaried. The UHJ and those who work at the World Centre get a stipend, but not a salary.

So I asked about the leaders... like UHJ, The Teaching Center, NSA, Continental Counselors, and even travel teachers. They are all doing work for the Faith but don't get paid for it?

As far as I know, they are not paid for their service, except those at the World Centre.
Baha'is do what they do because they believe in Baha'u'llah, not for any monetary reward. It ain't easy.

 

[Trailblazer]

Problem is... I'm talking about the hypocrisy of some people in "organized" religions. They can go to the religious functions, then go home, go to work and live unholy, sinful lives. In other words, be no different than a normal non-religious looking person. But, what are they supposed to be? A light. An example to the wayward. They should reflect the virtues and morals of their religion.

How do you know they don't, just because you knew a few Christians or a few Baha'is who didn't?

I would call that the Fallacy of Hasty Generalization and the Fallacy of Jumping to conclusions.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes, for those that believe that guidance. I don't. I see flaws and discrepancies in some the beliefs and interpretations given by Baha'u'llah and the other Baha'i leaders. Like Abdul Baha's explanation of the "true" meaning of the resurrection. Like Baha'u'llah saying the Bible is wrong and that Ishmael, not Isaac, was taken to be sacrificed.

If none of that bothers you, then great. Become a Baha'i and follow its guidance.

No, none of that bothers me because I do not think I know more than they know and that is what it all boils down to in the end. Just because Abdu'l-Baha gave one explanation of the resurrection that does not mean it is the only explanation, but I do not believe Jesus rose from the dead, and I would never believe that even if I was never a Baha'i. Regarding Ishmael and Isaac, what reason would I have to believe the Bible is inerrant and both the Qur'an and the Baha'i Writings are wrong?

But I have another problem. I can't truly follow the strict moral codes of religions like the Baha'i Faith and Christianity. I like to "fool around" once in a while. I'd be no better than one of those hypocrites I was talking about. In the 70's I was around Baha'is and Christians... both of them had problems of people "foolin' around" and other "sinful" behaviors.

I thought you were married? At what age do men stop thinking about sex? You don't have to answer that.

If people can't live it, then they are not going to be able to honestly exemplify the religion. Flawed people telling others what the "truth" is? Flawed people in leadership roles? There's going to be scandals. No body is perfect.

Nobody is perfect so all we can do is try to follow the laws and strive towards perfection.

 

[Trailblazer]

Why aren't more people talking about how Christ has already returned?

Because the Baha'i Faith is the only major religion that teaches that Christ has returned, although there might be other believers who believe their prophet is the Return of Christ.

What happened to every eye will see him? The Baha'i Faith is too easily discounted. Once Baha'is say they have fulfilled every prophecy of every religion, those people in the other religions say, "Bull %&^#". Okay, they don't say that, probably more like, "Holy %&^# what a bunch of excrement."

That is true, we are too easily discounted, and most people do not even bother to check the prophecies because they are so sure we are wrong, which is necessary for them to keep believing they are right.

And how much are the Jews talking about the Bible? It's Christians who think they have the only way, the only truth that are saying what their version of the Bible is true and relevant.

That is not true. The Jews also believe they are the only true religion and that the Torah is the only true scripture.

 

[Trailblazer]

Which means God can confer the ability to people. He chooses to keep most of us in the dark and dependent on a special messenger.

God can do whatever He wants to do. God does not choose to keep most people in the dark, most people choose to keep themselves in the dark, can't blame God for that.

And in the past, that message has always been misunderstood, misinterpreted, misapplied, used and abused by the people that take control of the religion. But that's okay. It was all part of God's plan.

The past is gone, so I see no reason to keep talking about it.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Well the Father in the Bible is the very God. So the claim is that Baha'ullah is God then; being the Father?

I see Baha'u'llah has now explained this in detail, if we use the Bible passage, with what I know Baha'u'llah offered, then this verse will explain why I can choose to see it this way, John 16:13 "But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come."

We know Jesus offered this;

John 14:28 "You heard that I said to you, 'I go away, and I will come to you.' If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I."

Now consider that Jesus also offered this;

"John 14:11 "Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves."

Now lets consider those passage with this passage;

Phil. 2:5-8 "Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross."

Now the above passage to be considered with this passage;

John 1:18 "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him".

So now we can know that No man has seen God and that Jesus the Christ has only declared God unto us. So the Father, although talked about as God, is also talked about as the Spirit, or Form of God, that will be with us at the end of the ages, we will never see God, but we know the Father will bring thy Kingdom Come. It stands to reason that Jesus, the Son in the Station of Christ, will return as the Father in the Station of Christ (Anointed One). The Father is not God, the Father is all we can Know of God and it is the Father that Jesus was preparing us for at the end of the ages.

Baha'u'llah (Glory of God) offered this to Pope Pius IX,

"...The Word which the Son concealed is made manifest. It hath been sent down in the form of the human temple in this day. Blessed be the Lord Who is the Father! He, verily, is come unto the nations in His most great majesty. Turn your faces towards Him, O concourse of the righteous… This is the day whereon the Rock (Peter) crieth out and shouteth, and celebrateth the praise of its Lord, the All-Possessing, the Most High, saying: ‘Lo! The Father is come, and that which ye were promised in the Kingdom is fulfilled!…’ My body longeth for the cross, and Mine head waiteth the thrust of the spear, in the path of the All-Merciful, that the world may be purged from its transgressions…."

Of course a massive topic, but the great thing is, as I see that Baha'u'llah has brought us to all truth as promised by Christ, the amount of writings and explanations that are available are enormous.

Not to mention that somehow Ba'hai people try to reconcile all religious texts as manifestations of God given for each stage of humanity.

Baha'u'llah made a simple statement that is True of it is False. That there is only One God and all the Major Faiths who had a Messenger, that Messenger was from the same God.

Thus I can choose to see if that statement is valid, by looking to see if I can find the same advice written in all these Faiths, or I can try to prove it is not correct by looking for all the passages that do not seem to agree. With the former approach, there is more guidance available, that when used proves the statement to be naught but the truth. With the later approach, well, history has recorded that every person of a Faith that does not accept the New Faith, has used that approach since record began. A person will find what their heart desires.

So Baha'ullah, as you might say, is ushering in a stage of humanity that is spiritual maturity. But that comes with a warning not to regress into perilous times. Did I get that right?

Yes, we have been warned to learn from the past and to me this passage says it best, even though there are many that could be offered;

"..The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements..."

Thanks for the questions, Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

Whether you like it or not, the prophecies in the other religions are an important part of what needs to be shown to have been fulfilled by Baha'u'llah. Some just don't work all that good.

They work for me. Show me where Sears made a mistake.

 

[Trailblazer]

Have you ever felt pure and in tune with God... felt his spirit glowing inside?

No, not really.

Who can understand it. That's going to be a problem. I'll see it one way and you'll see it another. Just like with the "Woes"... I see those as bad things coming upon the people. I don't see, in the context of what it says happens during each Woe, how the first Woe is about Muhammad and second is about The Bab. But then one of the "Two Witnesses" is supposed to be Muhammad also? Good luck. Did you say you have that book about Revelation that was written by a Baha'i? Or no?

So why keep trying to understand it? Many people who accept the gospels believe that the Book of Revelation is the ramblings of a madman.

I pointed you to the following book and you said you already knew about it:

Apocalypse Secrets: Baha'i Interpretation of the Book of Revelation Paperback – January 23, 2011

https://www.amazon.com/Apocalypse-Secrets-Bahai-Interpretation-Revelation/dp/1456443623

There might be other books written by Baha'is, I don't know.

I might get that book cited above. I usually wait till I have enough books to order so I can get free shipping. I just clicked in the link and saw another book I would like to read. the author is on the NSA of the United States:

God Speaks Again: An Introduction to the Baha'i Faith Paperback – October 1, 2004
by Kenneth E Bowers (Author)

https://www.amazon.com/God-Speaks-Again-Introduction-Bahai

 

[rational experiences]

As a spiritual human, I know in self conscious awareness that I am the highest conscious form in natural life, and by my parents I identify spiritual reasoning, for none of us were our parents, we are all just babies.

Our first 2 parents physically died bodily. So our conscious baby to adult self knows we arrived from just a small amount of bodily information, sperm and an ovary, as consciousness. Yet 2 Creator beings, humans are our spiritual ownership.

So to not identify true information is not to use, quote, infer, reference, record and encode self expressive self owned teachings/preaching constantly as life owner. Image of self, feed back of voice, given back to self by the God stone gas heavenly body.

To tell the truth as a self in a self experience. Why any human in any moment can become more enlightened than any other human experience from the past. Yet we also identify the use of past spiritual information as a support for the present living experience.

What true spiritual conscious correct thinkers know, just human.

Now I know from 2 original parents who died or went to sleep consciously, that if I died and you all died as humans. Animals living on Earth do not express our realisation, our science thesis, to research information to quote and science owns references to spiritual identities when they researched information about a planet for a machine and a reaction in the sciences.

Rational humans quote, every body living on Earth is a spiritual being, natural and supportive as a truth sayer without owning a whole lot of scientific jargon.

Yet spiritual humanity had to then argue for life health and spiritual continuance due to science occult cause and effects, life attacked and unnaturally converted by cellular bio conditions and sacrificed.

Reality.

Therefore I know the God you speak about is just a science statement as said by the highest spiritual presence who applied scientific spruiking, a male group, Father, same DNA life owner, a clone of his owned multiple original male self historically. And today you all use that memory, and reference self, Father spiritual quotations, human as a higher realisation, due to you all living self spirit male human converted.

As a rational self idealisation, with the quote, when I die physically as a human self, the higher eternal spirit body from which our parents were sent out from, I still own one presence of a living spirit in that body....for it is that body that released the origins of creation as a motivated caused research, as a being. Spirit.

Which owns no identification in a science model for a human male who identifies and takes all of his science themes from the origins of his machine presence, the mass of planet Earth. So his machine ended and finished completed sealed as if his claim his machine is now the same as God the mass stone planet gained history from a hot dense state.

As he took cold radiated fused and sealed minerals to make invent a machine, a fake God idol, nothing like Planet Earth at all. All of his theories and thesis thinking came from being consciously supported by the atmospheric gas spirit, which he quotes....you cannot put it inside of a container.

Therefore not being enabled to contain the heavenly spirit, he takes the mineral chemicals of the Earth mass and converted them physically and manually his own self, to own a machine or inventive condition to contain the heavenly spirit. Yet he never personally captured the spirit out of the space holding.

So why lie about it today in science?

The history of reason to wear robes as clothing......factually I irradiated the land so badly I had to wear clothing to keep my skin safe. A male bore his robes, said it was holy. And it was his own sexual motivation that said a woman covering her body was because of her w h o r e sexuality. Yet she donned holy robes also.

Always was the male self status, to use and infer words who false preached.

For the human life body was created naked, we always owned the highest self form of being naked. Babies, our selves are born naked. We only covered our bodies due to environmental conditions. Not because we are evil in our nakedness...another false teaching.

If a human claims my sexual motivation changed due to irradiation of my brain chemistry, then own that realisation as a realisation and not as some human condition to define someone less than self for just existing naturally.

But a lot of communities irrationally did.

And today is just a motivated human reasoning about all wrongs historically and self lived today, to want by spiritual defined reasons to have all wrongs stopped before we all get destroyed by lying Satanic science of the radiation occult references.

To which the SEAL of planet Earth kept us safe from....its release.

If science owns a quote that says I let the wrong Jesus out of the jail...meaning the sealed gases of planet Earth, then what he is discussing scientifically in rationality?

PHI only.

PHI of planet Earth fusion seals is nothing like the atmospheric natural gases as the spirit of gas just sitting in space. A whole lot of converting by heat is first applied to get what a science self claims is any condition like the atmospheric gas.

Why we were taught that God the stone planet is FIRST and the ONE body, mass, and it was a science teaching.

If humans cannot tell the truth whilst living and state we are all equal. If we all died in the exact same moment as that equal living human.....then no God/spirit owns any identification in that reasoning. For it is only reasoned by the living human self.

We all live supported heavenly by the Noble gas spirit. So we claim the royal spirit the Noble gases have to exist in natural mass and form first, before the water/oxygen microbial mass that we use and live as bio life existed held at the ground.

We do not own self presence or lived life in the Noble Gases, hence we were all taught we ARE NOT GOD. The very reason for the con of science is to coerce human belief, so that they can do whatever evil science they desire.

And that is to convert the GOD STONE MASS, Number One, the FIRST and origin just into an equal heavenly gas spirit body. To try to achieve that outcome, of course the Heavenly body would all just be burnt out of existence, for science then to quote, and then GOD O one and the first, the stone in that heated irradiation quote, would just then convert into a heavenly gas without owning stone sealed fusion.

Historically the first science theist in pretend, which none of you take any notification of advice quotes......I took the science theory from a flooded planet Earth right up to just the mountain mass tip above the water line, as if only water and the small mass ^ mountain with o UFO radiation existed...as the quoted science thesis.

Stone mass did naturally exist and it is not water. How come when you get sink holes, in the hole is a lot of water? Do tell us Satanic brother, and supposedly my other spiritual brothers who fought and argued against science of the occult/radiation what you are all supporting today as males in human life on Earth?

That you all try to claim that you personally are some form of God, yet if you all died together, animals and the Garden do not make that conscious claim, I am special, I own a special purpose and would just live naturally, just like you all were meant to. Live naturally supported equally by all natural bodies, as a natural human.

 

[CG Didymus]

You did not quote all Trailblazer posted, which explained the question you just asked.

Regards Tony

Correct, I believe the claim.

Correct, I believe the claims of Baha’u’llah.

Correct, I accept Baha’u’llah’s claim as true.

That is correct, but I did not make the claim so I do not bear the burden of proof.

Baha’u’llah made the claim to be a Messenger of God so He had the burden of proof.

Baha’u’llah told us how to establish the truth of His claim, what the evidence is.

“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106

So you guys don't claim that Baha'u'llah is a manifestation? You guys say it. You believe it. And you accept his claims. But there is nothing you can claim is true about him?

What answer? She says she did not make the claim, so she doesn't make any claims about Baha'u'llah being the manifestation of God? How about you? You ever claim that he is a manifestation and the return of Christ? Or, do you just accept it and say it? That way you don't have the burden of proof? I don't think so. We still can ask, "Why do you say it and why do you accept it?" Then a Baha'i should be able to answer that question.

 

[Trailblazer]

What answer? She says she did not make the claim, so she doesn't make any claims about Baha'u'llah being the manifestation of God? How about you? You ever claim that he is a manifestation and the return of Christ? Or, do you just accept it and say it? That way you don't have the burden of proof? I don't think so. We still can ask, "Why do you say it and why do you accept it?" Then a Baha'i should be able to answer that question.

I do not claim it, I say it and I accept it.
I can answer the question as to why I say it and accept it and I plan to do so in a new thread I will be posting next weekend entitled What convinced me that Baha’u’llah was a Messenger of God.

 

[CG Didymus]

I Have at least 4 x A4 pages full of bible passages that show Jesus is not God.

My mother is a born again Christain, so in the 90's I sat down and read Bible front to back making note where Jesus shows that He is not God.

After compiling all that evidence, I sat down to write the letter to her. After a paragraph or two, I stopped and binned the idea.

It had become so evident that the man Jesus was not God, but as Christ was all we could know of God, that I saw no amount of explanation would change the mind of a person that in no way wanted to see that explanation.

Many are of the that mindset.

Regards Tony

Okay Jesus is not God in the flesh or literally his "son". But was Krishna an incarnation of Vishnu. Was Buddha sent by the one true God? Was Adam, Noah and Abraham manifestations? But back to Jesus. Was he a manifestation? He didn't bring a book. People wrote a book about him that has things in it that aren't literally true. That's why I keep asking Baha'is, then why don't you call it religious mythology? Myths do contain stories of miracle working God/man that are virgin born and rise from the dead. But... they aren't real. At best, they are based on a real person but the story is fiction. It is myth and legend.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

What answer? She says she did not make the claim, so she doesn't make any claims about Baha'u'llah being the manifestation of God? How about you? You ever claim that he is a manifestation and the return of Christ? Or, do you just accept it and say it? That way you don't have the burden of proof? I don't think so. We still can ask, "Why do you say it and why do you accept it?" Then a Baha'i should be able to answer that question.

CG the Answer is provided;

The first is proof "His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed.

I accept the proofs provided by Baha'u'llah in those 3 categories.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Okay Jesus is not God in the flesh or literally his "son". But was Krishna an incarnation of Vishnu. Was Buddha sent by the one true God? Was Adam, Noah and Abraham manifestations? But back to Jesus. Was he a manifestation? He didn't bring a book. People wrote a book about him that has things in it that aren't literally true. That's why I keep asking Baha'is, then why don't you call it religious mythology? Myths do contain stories of miracle working God/man that are virgin born and rise from the dead. But... they aren't real. At best, they are based on a real person but the story is fiction. It is myth and legend.

All those answers, are to me, are found in the 3 categories of proofs given by Baha'u'llah.

I am sure we have covered all those questions in previous OP's

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

And Christians can say the same thing.

How could we make them symbolic? What would they be symbolic of?

I'm sure Christians have told you how they interpret those verses... he was speaking from his human side. Jesus was fully human and fully God at the same time. Or, what if we make God symbolic. God is not real. He is symbolic of pure love. And then God being Jesus' father? We can make that symbolic. Jesus was born out of that pure spiritual essence of divine love. And, when Jesus left his physical body behind, his pure spirit was reunited with that divine love from which he came. I hope those are close enough, but still, why take anything written by the followers of Jesus literally, right? If we're going to take some of it symbolically, meaning things like the resurrection, then let's take it all symbolically.

 

[CG Didymus]

We cannot claim it because we cannot prove it.
That is why we say we believe it.
We believe it is true.

An unprovable manifestation who claims he was sent by unknowable, invisible spirit being? Sure, I can believe that.

 

[CG Didymus]

Salvation was only through Jesus during the Dispensation of Jesus Christ because Jesus was the only way to the Father, according to the Bible....

So for 600 years, the only way to God was through Jesus? So a Hindu, a Buddhist, a Jew and whatever other religions that you believe were from God could not, through their own religious beliefs, know God, or get saved or whatever you want to call it? You don't really think that do you? Salvation for Christians included that they were hopelessly lost in their sins and could not save themselves. The only way to reach God was to accept Jesus' sacrificing and atoning death.

 

[CG Didymus]

CG the Answer is provided;

The first is proof "His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed.

I accept the proofs provided by Baha'u'llah in those 3 categories.

Regards Tony

But Tony, can you "claim" he is a manifestation of God? I think Baha'is can make that claim. And tell us all why you believe his claim that he is from God. What's the big problem with the word "claim"? Say it? Accept it? Claim it? What's the difference? We're still going to ask you why do you say it... or accept it... or claim it?

 

[CG Didymus]

was Krishna an incarnation of Vishnu. Was Buddha sent by the one true God? Was Adam, Noah and Abraham manifestations?

All those answers, are to me, are found in the 3 categories of proofs given by Baha'u'llah.

Krishna... if real, his story is greatly embellished. But, very well could by mythical. Buddha... lots of legends about him too. Does his teachings even need anything resembling the Abrahamic God? Adam, Noah, and Abraham... legend and myth... especially Adam and Noah. Why do they even need to be made manifestations?