What would be evidence that God exists?

[Trailblazer]

And some you believe is BS? Or, no? It's all true, just what is unbelievable or doesn't fit with Baha'i beliefs is symbolic? Yeah, sure... if you're a Baha'i. But you can see why others look at that kind of interpreting of the Bible with suspicion?

I make my own judgments about the Bible, as do all Baha'is.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes, and do you believe the Bible stories about them?

Why not? But I do not believe Adam and Eve and the Garden of Eden is a true story.

 

[Trailblazer]

But to not learn about the other religions is being in the dark too? So when does knowing too much about the past religions becomes a problem? Or, is it just when people talk too much about them?

As a Baha'i I do not think it is necessary to know about other religions because it is not going to affect my beliefs or my actions.

I do not think that knowing a lot about past religions is a problem, unless it prevents one from learning about the religion for this day. I just do not see the utility in talking about the past religions because the past is gone and it has no bearing on the present or on the future.

 

[Trailblazer]

Adrian said the same thing. But you are saying the Bible and the NT are both wrong when they say it is Isaac... not a small thing.

It is small to me.

 

[Trailblazer]

What did you say about generalizations? We should say, "some Jews" and "some Christians." But all Baha'is think they have the new teachings from God that makes all the other religions irrelevant... generally speaking.

All the Jews I have spoken with hold this position, I don't know about the others.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I see in that, that God told Baha'u'llah to arise and proclaim the Message, thus it Is Baha'u'llah that holds all the proof.
Baha'u'llah asked us to share the Message to those that wish to hear and has said if it is accepted that's OK and if not then leave them to themselves.
Like Christ offered, he said dust of the sandles and move on.

Bahaollah has all the proof but does not give an iota of that to others.
Sure, take his message to people, those who buy your snake-oil, well and good. And if they don't, move on. Don't waste time on unbelievers.
Jesus was selling his own snake-oil, and Mohammad too. Good sales strategy.
Wish Allah spoke in modern English. It seems he was born in medieval England.

That makes me think that spiritual experiences are not a good indicator of truth.

But Bahaollah had one in 'Siyah Chal' when the Maid of Heaven visited him and told him about Allah selecting him. Was that truth or falsehood?

I do not think that knowing a lot about past religions is a problem, unless it prevents one from learning about the religion for this day. I just do not see the utility in talking about the past religions because the past is gone and it has no bearing on the present or on the future.

Bahaism also is a past religion. It dates from 1852. Ahmadiyya religion is more recent than that. 'Arya Samaj' in India dates from 1875, and that of Brahma Kumaris dates from 1935. Why are you still stuck with Bahaism?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Of course they would, but so what?

Being a little picky are we?

The Bible does not say Jesus was God. Christians say that.

Christians disagree.

I am not familiar enough with the Qur’an to comment, and please note that there is often more than one interpretation of verses.

I love it.
First you make the bold claim that scriptures don't contradict eachother and when I give you 3 examples, your response of one book is to simply deny it is scripture and from a second book you say you're not familiar with it.

Maybe, just maybe, you should be familiar with it before you make such bold claims?

I believe Jesus died on the cross because that is a Baha’i belief

Then it contradicts the quran.
In fact, the quran passage specifically says that christians and jews are wrong about what happened to jesus. So it flat out even states that it contradicts the bible.

, but I do not believe Jesus was bodily resurrected since that is not a Baha’i belief.

Then it contradicts the bible.

So much for you claim of there being no contradictions.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Correct, I believe the claim.

Correct, I believe the claims of Baha’u’llah.

Correct, I accept Baha’u’llah’s claim as true.

That is correct, but I did not make the claim so I do not bear the burden of proof.

Baha’u’llah made the claim to be a Messenger of God so He had the burden of proof.

Baha’u’llah told us how to establish the truth of His claim, what the evidence is.

“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106

Claims have a burden of proof. No matter who utters them. No matter if you express it as a claim or as a belief therein. The claim has a burden of proof.

Belief in claims are only justified in so far as their burden of proof can be met.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

True, as I said in my previous post, I believe the claims that Baha'u'llah made.

Why?

 

[Trailblazer]

But Bahaollah had one in 'Siyah Chal' when the Maid of Heaven visited him and told him about Allah selecting him. Was that truth or falsehood?

I believe it was true because if the evidence that supports the claim if Baha'u'llah to be a Messenger of God.

Bahaism also is a past religion. It dates from 1852. Ahmadiyya religion is more recent than that. 'Arya Samaj' in India dates from 1875, and that of Brahma Kumaris dates from 1935. Why are you still stuck with Bahaism?

I do not believe that any Prophets have some after Baha'u'llah, as you might recall from what Baha'u'llah wrote, and that means there have been no new divinely revealed religions after the Baha'i Faith.

“Whoso layeth claim to a Revelation direct from God, ere the expiration of a full thousand years, such a man is assuredly a lying impostor. We pray God that He may graciously assist him to retract and repudiate such claim. Should he repent, God will, no doubt, forgive him. If, however, he persisteth in his error, God will, assuredly, send down one who will deal mercilessly with him. Terrible, indeed, is God in punishing! Whosoever interpreteth this verse otherwise than its obvious meaning is deprived of the Spirit of God and of His mercy which encompasseth all created things. Fear God, and follow not your idle fancies. Nay, rather follow the bidding of your Lord, the Almighty, the All-Wise.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 346

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

That says it all in a nutshell, so that is a great post.

Regards Tony

Yes, it's a wonderful way of expressing how one hides behind words to avoid caring about the burden of proof.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

That’s right, claims are not evidence, but there is evidence that backs up “some” claims.

Such as?

It is not MY claim that the Writings of Baha’u’llah are the Word of God, it was Baha’u’llah’s claim.

It is MY belief that the Writings of Baha’u’llah are the Word of God.

Claims have a burden of proof.
You simply believing claims, doesn't exempt those claims from their burden of proof.
Belief in claims is only justified insofar as those burdens of proof can be met.

So you're basicly saying that you don't care about that at all and are doing your best to simply ignore and dodge it.

Baha’u’llah claimed that He was the Voice of God so that would make what He wrote the Word of God. I believe His claim because of the evidence that indicates that He was telling the truth.

What evidence?

Baha’u’llah provided evidence to back up His claim

How? Where?

(as i noted in a previous post).

Yes, you've claimed this multiple times already.
You have yet to share this evidence.

Whether people accept the evidence He offered is another matter. A man might pull into my driveway today and tell me he has a Mercedes He wants me to accept for free, but I might tell him I am not accepting it because I do not like the Mercedes.Yes, plenty.

That makes no sense as an analogy at all.

 

[Trailblazer]

Claims have a burden of proof. No matter who utters them. No matter if you express it as a claim or as a belief therein. The claim has a burden of proof.

The burden was met, as far as I am concerned. You will never agree so what is the point of arguing about it?

Belief in claims are only justified in so far as their burden of proof can be met.

Belief is personal. Nobody has to justify their belief to anyone except themselves.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I think it should make you think, and you might ask yourself why a person cannot prove to someone else that their religious beliefs are true.....

I already thought about that.
And I came to the conclusion that they can't do it for the same reason that a homeopath can't (and won't even try to) demonstrate that homeopathy actually works. And the same for psychics, voodoo, crystal healings, astrology, etc. And that reason is, because it is unfalsifiable, untestable nonsense that can't be distinguished from falsehoods and non-existing things. It relies entirely on the gullibility of people.

But that does not mean they are not true.

Sure. Me not being able to demonstrate that there isn't an undetectable extra-dimensional dragon following you around everywhere you go, doesn't mean that it isn't true either.

The real question is: why would you believe that and assume that it IS true?

It is true that the schizophrenic actually hears voices.

No. The schizo doesn't "actually" hear voices. Hearing means that there are sound waves traveling through the air and reaching your ear and your brain picking up and interpreting that signal. But no such soundwaves exists, nore are the ears picking up anything.

What actually happens, is the brain playing tricks on itself.
There is no hearing nore is there anything to hear. Instead, there are auditive hallucinations.

Just because you do not hear them that does not mean he does not hear them.

Not just me. EVERYONE and ANYTHING. Because there is nothing there to hear. There are no soundwaves traveling through the air. The schizo himself is NOT hearing anything either. He is hallucinating.

Similarly, it is true that there is evidence that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God. Just because you do not accept the evidence does not mean it does not exist.

"similarly"? So you're saying the evidence is hallucination?

 

[Trailblazer]

Why?

Why I believe in Baha'u'llah is a big subject and not something I can answer in one post on the fly.
Stay tuned. Because it has been requested by several posters, I am starting a new thread next weekend entitled:

What convinced me that Baha’u’llah was a Messenger of God

 

[Trailblazer]

So much for you claim of there being no contradictions.

Whether you see contradictions ALL depends upon how the scriptures are interpreted, A-L-L.
I could prove that if I had the verses in front of my face.
Case closed.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I agree that humanity will go on, as I am not Christian who believes in the end of the world. However, I do not believe that humanity will go on as it has gone on in the past because I believe this is an entirely new age, the likes of which humanity has never seen in the past.

Why do you think that, aside from that it is what you religiously believe?

Of course things are not correct because they make me feel good, but who said anything about being comfortable or feeling good?

Joe W said: I'm just saying its irrelevant to me. So it must just be for your benefit.

Trailblazer said: For my benefit and for the benefit of everyone who believes what I do.

You left out the relevant parts of your post. These sentences:

How are nonbelievers faring with what is going on all over the world, in this country? What hope can they have for the future? I


You are saying that nonbelievers have no hope and implying that we can't cope with "what is going on all over the world", as if we are getting depressed or otherwise not doing well.

ie: that we aren't comfortable with the current status of the world and that the reason for that is that we don't have faith based religious beliefs.

Comfortable? It would be much easier to be an atheist.

That doesn't rhyme with the quote above, implying that nonbelievers can't cope with the current world and have no hope for the future.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

The burden was met, as far as I am concerned.

yet when people ask you about it, you can't answer.

Belief is personal. Nobody has to justify their belief to anyone except themselves.

Another round of dodgeball.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Whether you see contradictions ALL depends upon how the scriptures are interpreted, A-L-L.

Translation: you'll simply "interprete" them in your favor.

I could prove that if I had the verses in front of my face.

You don't even know what the verses are.

Again, the bible specifically says jesus was killed by crucifiction and subsequently resurected.
While the quran specifically says the bible is wrong about that.

That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-

— Qur'an, surah 4 (An-Nisa) ayat 157–158[3]

Case closed.

Because you say so?



Dodgeball.

 

[Trailblazer]

Such as?

I cannot post all the evidence in this forum.

Claims have a burden of proof.

Baha’u’llah met His burden.

What evidence?

Do you really think that I just accepted that Baha’u’llah was the Voice of God without a lot of evidence? I cannot post all the evidence in this forum. There is too much. At best, I can list the categories of evidence and post links as to where you can do the research yourself. Are you up to that, or is this just a game for you?

Baha’u’llah provided evidence to back up His claim

How? Where?

See above response.

Yes, you've claimed this multiple times already.
You have yet to share this evidence.

I have shared some of it in the past on this forum but I don’t waste my time anymore because all the atheists EVER say is “that’s not evidence.” Thus I won’t be led around by the nose anymore. Live and learn.

That makes no sense as an analogy at all.

It is a perfect analogy because for seven years I have been presenting the evidence for Baha’u’llah to atheists on various forums and none of them ever accepted it.