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What would be evidence that God exists?

PAUL MARKHAM

Well-Known Member
You believe in Jesus. What proof do you have? You have the Bible, but I cannot understand how that is any better proof than I have for Baha'u'llah. In fact, I do not think the Bible is as good as the proof I have for Baha'u'llah, since the NT cannot even be verified to have been written by the disciples. By contrast, it can be verified tat Baha'u'llah wrote His own scriptures and His life and Mission on earth are verifiable given it is contemporary history.
Jesus probably existed because there were followers after his death. Was he "The son of god" prophet, messiah, revolutionary, teacher, rabbi, etc? We don't know. He was pretty ineffectual in changing the world or even those around him.
 

PAUL MARKHAM

Well-Known Member
To answer this we have to know who you believe is the latest messenger of god and who this god is.
For me it's the scientists warning us of the dangers we face.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
To answer this we have to know who you believe is the latest messenger of god and who this god is.
For me it's the scientists warning us of the dangers we face.
I told you who I believe that was, Baha'u'llah.
Baha'u'llah warned us of the dangers we face.
Baha'u'llah told us to look to science for the solutions to problems that can be addressed by science.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Jesus probably existed because there were followers after his death. Was he "The son of god" prophet, messiah, revolutionary, teacher, rabbi, etc? We don't know. He was pretty ineffectual in changing the world or even those around him.

Codswallop, pure Codswallop.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
What part?
That he probably existed or that he changed very little and relied on many others to achieve established Christianity?

All of it. It is more than laughable one would even offer that Jesus the Christ changed not a thing and influenced no one around Him.

I can offer not more, as it shows how far from God man has become.

Regards Tony
 

PAUL MARKHAM

Well-Known Member
All of it. It is more than laughable one would even offer that Jesus the Christ changed not a thing and influenced no one around Him.

I can offer not more, as it shows how far from God man has become.

Regards Tony
He influenced a few people in a very insignificant place for the time.
So tell me what he changed and not the people who followed him.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
The problem with you believing the Messenger is what messenger do you refer to and what was his message?
The Messenger I am referring to is Baha'u'llah. There is a lot I could post you to read but I thought this video would be better as introduction.

So for me, the messenger has to prove he is that and if he wants me to believe in him. He has to give bloody good reasons.
I believe that Baha'u'llah proved who He was by His own self, His life, His mission and His Writings. All this can be researched. Baha'is call that the Independent Investigation of Truth.

“The first principle Baha’u’llah urged was the independent investigation of truth. “Each individual,” He said, “is following the faith of his ancestors who themselves are lost in the maze of tradition. Reality is steeped in dogmas and doctrines. If each investigate for himself, he will find that Reality is one; does not admit of multiplicity; is not divisible. All will find the same foundation and all will be at peace.” – Abdu’l-Baha, Star of the West, Volume 3, p. 5.

Baha'u'llah did not expect anyone to believe in Him without doing a full investigation of Him; His character, His works and His words..

“Bahá’u’lláh asked no one to accept His statements and His tokens blindly. On the contrary, He put in the very forefront of His teachings emphatic warnings against blind acceptance of authority, and urged all to open their eyes and ears, and use their own judgement, independently and fearlessly, in order to ascertain the truth. He enjoined the fullest investigation and never concealed Himself, offering, as the supreme proofs of His Prophethood, His words and works and their effects in transforming the lives and characters of men.”Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, p. 8
I believe the world is heading for a change, a big one that will see Humanity destroyed. The implosion of the natural world is slowly throttling the world of resources. There are 1,000s of messengers of that doom.
Baha'is believe that Baha'u'llah ushered in an entirely new religious cycle, called the Cycle of Fulfillment, because all the prophecies of past religions will be fulfilled during this Cycle. During this age humanity will witness what humanity has never witnessed before. Thus I agree that this world is headed for a big change, what we call the New World Order.

“The world’s equilibrium hath been upset through the vibrating influence of this most great, this new World Order. Mankind’s ordered life hath been revolutionized through the agency of this unique, this wondrous System—the like of which mortal eyes have never witnessed.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 136

Those of us who are Baha’is can see the old world order is crumbling and a new world order is rising in its stead. These are simultaneous processes.

“Beseech ye the one true God to grant that all men may be graciously assisted to fulfil that which is acceptable in Our sight. Soon will the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead. Verily, thy Lord speaketh the truth, and is the Knower of things unseen.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 7
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
He influenced a few people in a very insignificant place for the time.
A few people? Yes, it was only a few people in the first centuries, but as with all great religions Christianity grew large over time.

FT_17.04.05_projectionsUpdate_globalPop640px.png
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Jesus probably existed because there were followers after his death. Was he "The son of god" prophet, messiah, revolutionary, teacher, rabbi, etc? We don't know. He was pretty ineffectual in changing the world or even those around him.
Jesus changed the world but it took time to see the effects.

Baha'is believe that Jesus was a Manifestation of God.

This excerpt from the bahai.org website explains what I mean by a Manifestation of God:

Manifestations of God

Throughout the ages, humanity’s spiritual, intellectual and moral capacities have been cultivated by the Founders of the great religions, among them Abraham, Krishna, Zoroaster, Moses, Buddha, Jesus Christ, Muhammad, and—in more recent times—the Báb and Bahá’u’lláh.

These Figures are not simply ordinary people with a greater knowledge than others. Rather they are Manifestations of God, Who have exerted an incomparable influence on the evolution of human society. While each of Them has a distinct individuality and a definite mission, the Manifestations of God all share in a single, divinely-ordained purpose—to “educate the souls of men, and refine the character of every living man…1

The Manifestation of God is the light-bringer of the world. Like the arrival of spring, His coming releases a fresh outpouring of spirit into creation and has a universal effect. When humanity has entered its “winter,” this new “sun” appears above the horizon and “shines upon the worlds of spirits, of thoughts and of hearts…” Then, “the spiritual spring and new life appear, the power of the wonderful springtime becomes visible, and marvelous benefits are apparent.2

Manifestations of God | What Bahá’ís Believe
 

PAUL MARKHAM

Well-Known Member
The Messenger I am referring to is Baha'u'llah. There is a lot I could post you to read but I thought this video would be better as introduction.


I believe that Baha'u'llah proved who He was by His own self, His life, His mission and His Writings. All this can be researched. Baha'is call that the Independent Investigation of Truth.

“The first principle Baha’u’llah urged was the independent investigation of truth. “Each individual,” He said, “is following the faith of his ancestors who themselves are lost in the maze of tradition. Reality is steeped in dogmas and doctrines. If each investigate for himself, he will find that Reality is one; does not admit of multiplicity; is not divisible. All will find the same foundation and all will be at peace.” – Abdu’l-Baha, Star of the West, Volume 3, p. 5.

Baha'u'llah did not expect anyone to believe in Him without doing a full investigation of Him; His character, His works and His words..

“Bahá’u’lláh asked no one to accept His statements and His tokens blindly. On the contrary, He put in the very forefront of His teachings emphatic warnings against blind acceptance of authority, and urged all to open their eyes and ears, and use their own judgement, independently and fearlessly, in order to ascertain the truth. He enjoined the fullest investigation and never concealed Himself, offering, as the supreme proofs of His Prophethood, His words and works and their effects in transforming the lives and characters of men.”Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, p. 8

Baha'is believe that Baha'u'llah ushered in an entirely new religious cycle, called the Cycle of Fulfillment, because all the prophecies of past religions will be fulfilled during this Cycle. During this age humanity will witness what humanity has never witnessed before. Thus I agree that this world is headed for a big change, what we call the New World Order.

“The world’s equilibrium hath been upset through the vibrating influence of this most great, this new World Order. Mankind’s ordered life hath been revolutionized through the agency of this unique, this wondrous System—the like of which mortal eyes have never witnessed.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 136

Those of us who are Baha’is can see the old world order is crumbling and a new world order is rising in its stead. These are simultaneous processes.

“Beseech ye the one true God to grant that all men may be graciously assisted to fulfil that which is acceptable in Our sight. Soon will the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead. Verily, thy Lord speaketh the truth, and is the Knower of things unseen.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 7
Every Baha'u'llah needs men with guns to make sure that evil doesn't prevail.
 

PAUL MARKHAM

Well-Known Member
A few people? Yes, it was only a few people in the first centuries, but as with all great religions Christianity grew large over time.

FT_17.04.05_projectionsUpdate_globalPop640px.png
So how many people do you think followed Jesus's teachings after his death and how many preached them? Paul and Peter are the founders of the Christian religion.
It's the worlds biggest religion today because of Constatine and politics.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
So how many people do you think followed Jesus's teachings after his death and how many preached them?
I believe that the early Christians, those in the first centuries, followed Jesus' teachings, but ultimately Christianity became the religion of Paul, not the religion of Jesus: As noted in the quote below, the small handful of true Christians’ was Nazarene Christianity, which was already extinct in the fourth century…

Below is an excerpt from the section of a book entitled The Light Shineth in Darkness, Studies in revelation after Christ by Udo Schaefer which explains how Paul changed the Christianity of Jesus. You can read the entire section of the book which includes the references on the link to my thread below.

"That the figure of the Nazarene, as delivered to us in Mark’s Gospel, is decisively different from the pre-existent risen Christ proclaimed by Paul, is something long recognized by thinkers like Kant, Fichte, Schelling, Herder and Goethe, to mention only a few. The distinction between ‘the religion of Christ’ and ‘the Christian religion’ goes back to Lessing. Critical theological research has now disputed the idea of an uninterrupted chain of historical succession: Luther’s belief that at all times a small handful of true Christians preserved the true apostolic faith. Walter Bauer (226) and Martin Werner (227) have brought evidence that there was conflict from the outset about the central questions of dogma. It has become clear that the beliefs of those who had seen and heard Jesus in the flesh --- the disciples and the original community--- were at odds to an extraordinary degree with the teaching of Paul, who claimed to have been not only called by a vision but instructed by the heavenly Christ. The conflict at Antioch between the apostles Peter and Paul, far more embittered as research has shown (228) than the Bible allows us to see, was the most fateful split in Christianity, which in the Acts of the Apostles was ‘theologically camouflaged’. (229)

Paul, who had never seen Jesus, showed great reserve towards the Palestinian traditions regarding Jesus’ life. (230) The historical Jesus and his earthly life are without significance for Paul. In all his epistles the name ‘Jesus’ occurs only 15 times, the title ‘Christ’ 378 times. In Jesus’s actual teaching he shows extraordinarily little interest. It is disputed whether in all his epistles he makes two, three or four references to sayings by Jesus. (231) It is not Jesus’ teaching, which he cannot himself have heard at all (short of hearing it in a vision), that is central to his own mission, but the person of the Redeemer and His death on the Cross.

Paul, however, did not pass on the revealed doctrine reflected in the glass of the intellectual categories of his time, as is often asserted; he transformed the ‘Faith of Jesus’ into ‘Faith in Jesus.’ He it was who gave baptism a mysterious significance, ‘so as to connect his mission with the experience of initiates in Hellenic mystery cults’, (232) he turned the last supper into a sacramental union with the Lord of those celebrating it; (233) he was responsible for the sacramentalization of the Christian religion, and took the phrase ‘Son of God’--- in the Jewish religion merely a title for the Messiah --- to be an ontological reality. The idea of the Son of God, come down from heaven to earth, hitherto inconceivable to Jewish thought, (234) was taken from Paul from the ancient religious syncretism of Asia Minor, to fit in with the need at the time for a general savior. It is generally accepted by critical scholarship that the godparents were the triad from the cult of Isia (Isis, Osiris and Horus) and also Attis, Adonis and Hercules. Jesus, who never claimed religious worship for himself was not worshipped in the original community, is for Paul the pre-existent risen Christ……..

This was the ‘Fall’ of Christianity: that Paul with his ‘Gospel’, which became the core of Christian dogma formation, conquered the world, (237) while the historic basis of Christianity was declared a heresy, the preservers of the original branded as ‘Ebionites.’ As Schoeps puts it, the heresy-hunters ‘accused the Ebionites of a lapse or relapse into Judaism, whereas they were really only the Conservatives who could not go along with the Pauline-cum-Hellenistic elaborations’. (238) Schonfield comes to the same conclusion: ‘This Christianity in its teaching about Jesus continued in the tradition it had directly inherited, and could justifiably regard Pauline and catholic Christianity as heretical. It was not, as its opponents alleged, Jewish Christianity which debased the person of Jesus, but the Church in general which was misled into deifying him.’ (239) ‘Pauline heresy served as the basis for Christian orthodoxy, and the legitimate Church was outlawed as heretical’. (240) The ‘small handful of true Christians’ was Nazarene Christianity, which was already extinct in the fourth century……

The centerpiece then, of Christian creedal doctrine, that of Redemption, is something of which—in the judgment of the theologian E. Grimm (244) --- Jesus himself knew nothing; and it goes back to Paul. This is even admitted by some Catholics: ‘Christianity today mostly means Paul.’ (245) And Wilhelm Nestle stated—as noted also by Sabet—‘Christianity is the religion founded by Paul who replaces the Gospel of Jesus by a gospel about Jesus.’ (246) So also Schonfield: ‘Paul produced an amalgamation of ideas which, however unintentionally, did give rise to a new religion.’ (247)……

Measured by the standard of Baha’u’llah revelation, the Pauline doctrine of Justification, the doctrine of Original Sin, the doctrine of the Holy Trinity, the sacramentalisation of the Christian religion, the whole Church plan of salvation — which not only contradicts the Jewish understanding of God (255) but was also strongly repudiated by the revelation of God which succeeded Christianity (256) — these are a deformation of Jesus’s teaching. Some critical theological scholars have confirmed that these deformations in Christianity started very early, in fact with Paul, and that the arch-apostle, without whom Marcion would not have been possible, was the arch-heretic in Christianity—as Tertullian very rightly saw. (257) Years ago, when I became acquainted with the founder of the Christian religion in the faith of the original community through H. J. Schoep’s Theologie und Geschichte des Judenchristentums, (258) the standard work on the subject, I was deeply impressed. Here Jesus was not the only-begotten Son of God come down from Heaven, crucified and resurrected, nor the unique Saviour, but the messenger of God to whom the Quran testifies and who is glorified by Baha’u’llah. (259)"

How Paul changed the course of Christianity
Paul and Peter are the founders of the Christian religion.
It's the worlds biggest religion today because of Constantine and politics.
That is true, as is noted on the BBC website:

Roman Empire

Paul established Christian churches throughout the Roman Empire, including Europe, and beyond - even into Africa.

Persecution

However, in all cases, the church remained small and was persecuted, particularly under tyrannical Roman emperors like Nero (54-68), Domitian (81-96), under whom being a Christian was an illegal act, and Diocletian (284-305).

Many Christian believers died for their faith and became martyrs for the church (Bishop Polycarp and St Alban amongst others).

Constantine turns the tide

When a Roman soldier, Constantine, won victory over his rival in battle to become the Roman emperor, he attributed his success to the Christian God and immediately proclaimed his conversion to Christianity.

Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire.

Constantine then needed to establish exactly what the Christian faith was and called the First Council of Nicea in 325 AD which formulated and codified the faith.

BBC - Religions - Christianity: The basics of Christian history

Christianity was very small in the first century, before Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire and Christianity may well have died out if Paul had not established Christian churches throughout the Roman Empire.

“Most scholars of Christian origins tend to exaggerate the size and importance of the early Christian church. This is understandable in the light of the discipline’s intense concentration on the New Testament texts. By confining ourselves in particular to the letters of Paul, the Gospels and Acts, it is all too easy to create a limited and false impression of the ancient world and the place of the Christians within it. Yet the reality is that for all of the first century the Christians were a tiny and insignificant socio-religious movement within the Graeco-Roman world (Hopkins 1998:195-196). Christianity did of course grow considerably in later centuries and it eventually became the religion of the Roman empire, but we should take care not to retroject its later size and importance into the initial decades of its existence.

Just how small was the Christian movement in the first century is clear from the calculations of the sociologist R Stark (1996:5-7; so too Hopkins 1998:192-193).Stark begins his analysis with a rough estimation of six million Christians in the Roman Empire (or about ten percent of the total population) at the start of the fourth century... There were 1,000 Christians in the year 40, 1,400 Christians in 50, 1,960 Christians in 60, 2,744 Christians in 70, 3,842 Christians in 80, 5,378 Christians in 90 and 7,530 Christians at the end of the first century.

These figures are very suggestive, and reinforce the point that in its initial decades the Christian movement represented a tiny fraction of the ancient world.”

How many Jews became Christians in the first century?
 
Last edited:

PAUL MARKHAM

Well-Known Member
Jesus changed the world but it took time to see the effects.

Baha'is believe that Jesus was a Manifestation of God.

This excerpt from the bahai.org website explains what I mean by a Manifestation of God:

Manifestations of God

Throughout the ages, humanity’s spiritual, intellectual and moral capacities have been cultivated by the Founders of the great religions, among them Abraham, Krishna, Zoroaster, Moses, Buddha, Jesus Christ, Muhammad, and—in more recent times—the Báb and Bahá’u’lláh.

These Figures are not simply ordinary people with a greater knowledge than others. Rather they are Manifestations of God, Who have exerted an incomparable influence on the evolution of human society. While each of Them has a distinct individuality and a definite mission, the Manifestations of God all share in a single, divinely-ordained purpose—to “educate the souls of men, and refine the character of every living man…1

The Manifestation of God is the light-bringer of the world. Like the arrival of spring, His coming releases a fresh outpouring of spirit into creation and has a universal effect. When humanity has entered its “winter,” this new “sun” appears above the horizon and “shines upon the worlds of spirits, of thoughts and of hearts…” Then, “the spiritual spring and new life appear, the power of the wonderful springtime becomes visible, and marvelous benefits are apparent.2

Manifestations of God | What Bahá’ís Believe
You say Jesus changed the world, then in later posts, you point out the truth. Which one is it?
He either changed the world or the people after him changed the world.
 

PAUL MARKHAM

Well-Known Member
I really do not understand what you mean?
Why would men with guns be necessary to prevent evil?
Then you're a very innocent person.
If you believe that everyone would follow Bahal's teachings blindly and a few individuals wouldn't take advantage of the others. You're dreaming. Nice dream but still a dream.
 

PAUL MARKHAM

Well-Known Member
I believe that the early Christians, those in the first centuries, followed Jesus' teachings, but ultimately Christianity became the religion of Paul, not the religion of Jesus: As noted in the quote below, the small handful of true Christians’ was Nazarene Christianity, which was already extinct in the fourth century…

Below is an excerpt from the section of a book entitled The Light Shineth in Darkness, Studies in revelation after Christ by Udo Schaefer which explains how Paul changed the Christianity of Jesus. You can read the entire section of the book which includes the references on the link to my thread below.

"That the figure of the Nazarene, as delivered to us in Mark’s Gospel, is decisively different from the pre-existent risen Christ proclaimed by Paul, is something long recognized by thinkers like Kant, Fichte, Schelling, Herder and Goethe, to mention only a few. The distinction between ‘the religion of Christ’ and ‘the Christian religion’ goes back to Lessing. Critical theological research has now disputed the idea of an uninterrupted chain of historical succession: Luther’s belief that at all times a small handful of true Christians preserved the true apostolic faith. Walter Bauer (226) and Martin Werner (227) have brought evidence that there was conflict from the outset about the central questions of dogma. It has become clear that the beliefs of those who had seen and heard Jesus in the flesh --- the disciples and the original community--- were at odds to an extraordinary degree with the teaching of Paul, who claimed to have been not only called by a vision but instructed by the heavenly Christ. The conflict at Antioch between the apostles Peter and Paul, far more embittered as research has shown (228) than the Bible allows us to see, was the most fateful split in Christianity, which in the Acts of the Apostles was ‘theologically camouflaged’. (229)

Paul, who had never seen Jesus, showed great reserve towards the Palestinian traditions regarding Jesus’ life. (230) The historical Jesus and his earthly life are without significance for Paul. In all his epistles the name ‘Jesus’ occurs only 15 times, the title ‘Christ’ 378 times. In Jesus’s actual teaching he shows extraordinarily little interest. It is disputed whether in all his epistles he makes two, three or four references to sayings by Jesus. (231) It is not Jesus’ teaching, which he cannot himself have heard at all (short of hearing it in a vision), that is central to his own mission, but the person of the Redeemer and His death on the Cross.

Paul, however, did not pass on the revealed doctrine reflected in the glass of the intellectual categories of his time, as is often asserted; he transformed the ‘Faith of Jesus’ into ‘Faith in Jesus.’ He it was who gave baptism a mysterious significance, ‘so as to connect his mission with the experience of initiates in Hellenic mystery cults’, (232) he turned the last supper into a sacramental union with the Lord of those celebrating it; (233) he was responsible for the sacramentalization of the Christian religion, and took the phrase ‘Son of God’--- in the Jewish religion merely a title for the Messiah --- to be an ontological reality. The idea of the Son of God, come down from heaven to earth, hitherto inconceivable to Jewish thought, (234) was taken from Paul from the ancient religious syncretism of Asia Minor, to fit in with the need at the time for a general savior. It is generally accepted by critical scholarship that the godparents were the triad from the cult of Isia (Isis, Osiris and Horus) and also Attis, Adonis and Hercules. Jesus, who never claimed religious worship for himself was not worshipped in the original community, is for Paul the pre-existent risen Christ……..

This was the ‘Fall’ of Christianity: that Paul with his ‘Gospel’, which became the core of Christian dogma formation, conquered the world, (237) while the historic basis of Christianity was declared a heresy, the preservers of the original branded as ‘Ebionites.’ As Schoeps puts it, the heresy-hunters ‘accused the Ebionites of a lapse or relapse into Judaism, whereas they were really only the Conservatives who could not go along with the Pauline-cum-Hellenistic elaborations’. (238) Schonfield comes to the same conclusion: ‘This Christianity in its teaching about Jesus continued in the tradition it had directly inherited, and could justifiably regard Pauline and catholic Christianity as heretical. It was not, as its opponents alleged, Jewish Christianity which debased the person of Jesus, but the Church in general which was misled into deifying him.’ (239) ‘Pauline heresy served as the basis for Christian orthodoxy, and the legitimate Church was outlawed as heretical’. (240) The ‘small handful of true Christians’ was Nazarene Christianity, which was already extinct in the fourth century……

The centerpiece then, of Christian creedal doctrine, that of Redemption, is something of which—in the judgment of the theologian E. Grimm (244) --- Jesus himself knew nothing; and it goes back to Paul. This is even admitted by some Catholics: ‘Christianity today mostly means Paul.’ (245) And Wilhelm Nestle stated—as noted also by Sabet—‘Christianity is the religion founded by Paul who replaces the Gospel of Jesus by a gospel about Jesus.’ (246) So also Schonfield: ‘Paul produced an amalgamation of ideas which, however unintentionally, did give rise to a new religion.’ (247)……

Measured by the standard of Baha’u’llah revelation, the Pauline doctrine of Justification, the doctrine of Original Sin, the doctrine of the Holy Trinity, the sacramentalisation of the Christian religion, the whole Church plan of salvation — which not only contradicts the Jewish understanding of God (255) but was also strongly repudiated by the revelation of God which succeeded Christianity (256) — these are a deformation of Jesus’s teaching. Some critical theological scholars have confirmed that these deformations in Christianity started very early, in fact with Paul, and that the arch-apostle, without whom Marcion would not have been possible, was the arch-heretic in Christianity—as Tertullian very rightly saw. (257) Years ago, when I became acquainted with the founder of the Christian religion in the faith of the original community through H. J. Schoep’s Theologie und Geschichte des Judenchristentums, (258) the standard work on the subject, I was deeply impressed. Here Jesus was not the only-begotten Son of God come down from Heaven, crucified and resurrected, nor the unique Saviour, but the messenger of God to whom the Quran testifies and who is glorified by Baha’u’llah. (259)"

How Paul changed the course of Christianity

That is true, as is noted on the BBC website:

Roman Empire

Paul established Christian churches throughout the Roman Empire, including Europe, and beyond - even into Africa.

Persecution

However, in all cases, the church remained small and was persecuted, particularly under tyrannical Roman emperors like Nero (54-68), Domitian (81-96), under whom being a Christian was an illegal act, and Diocletian (284-305).

Many Christian believers died for their faith and became martyrs for the church (Bishop Polycarp and St Alban amongst others).

Constantine turns the tide

When a Roman soldier, Constantine, won victory over his rival in battle to become the Roman emperor, he attributed his success to the Christian God and immediately proclaimed his conversion to Christianity.

Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire.

Constantine then needed to establish exactly what the Christian faith was and called the First Council of Nicea in 325 AD which formulated and codified the faith.

BBC - Religions - Christianity: The basics of Christian history

Christianity was very small in the first century, before Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire and Christianity may well have died out if Paul had not established Christian churches throughout the Roman Empire.

“Most scholars of Christian origins tend to exaggerate the size and importance of the early Christian church. This is understandable in the light of the discipline’s intense concentration on the New Testament texts. By confining ourselves in particular to the letters of Paul, the Gospels and Acts, it is all too easy to create a limited and false impression of the ancient world and the place of the Christians within it. Yet the reality is that for all of the first century the Christians were a tiny and insignificant socio-religious movement within the Graeco-Roman world (Hopkins 1998:195-196). Christianity did of course grow considerably in later centuries and it eventually became the religion of the Roman empire, but we should take care not to retroject its later size and importance into the initial decades of its existence.

Just how small was the Christian movement in the first century is clear from the calculations of the sociologist R Stark (1996:5-7; so too Hopkins 1998:192-193).Stark begins his analysis with a rough estimation of six million Christians in the Roman Empire (or about ten percent of the total population) at the start of the fourth century... There were 1,000 Christians in the year 40, 1,400 Christians in 50, 1,960 Christians in 60, 2,744 Christians in 70, 3,842 Christians in 80, 5,378 Christians in 90 and 7,530 Christians at the end of the first century.

These figures are very suggestive, and reinforce the point that in its initial decades the Christian movement represented a tiny fraction of the ancient world.”

How many Jews became Christians in the first century?
Yes, one only has to look at History to know what you've posted here is the truth.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
he changed very little and relied on many others to achieve established Christianity?
Yes, changed very little.

All of it. It is more than laughable one would even offer that Jesus the Christ changed not a thing and influenced no one around Him.
Changed not a thing? He said very little.

So tell me what he changed and not the people who followed him.
Where's Tony answer to this?

I agree. Paul was much more significant in the founding of Christianity than Jesus.
What would there be of Christian Scriptures if it wasn't for Paul?

Paul and Peter are the founders of the Christian religion.
It's the worlds biggest religion today because of Constatine and politics.
Yes, Constantine.

ultimately Christianity became the religion of Paul, not the religion of Jesus:
Then you agree with Paul Markham and Joe W. and not Tony?

You say Jesus changed the world, then in later posts, you point out the truth. Which one is it?
He either changed the world or the people after him changed the world.
Baha'is can and do believe it both ways. They can say "The spiritual power defused into the world by the coming of Jesus changed the world." or the opposite, "Jesus didn't accomplished the duties of the Messiah. Baha'u'llah has come to fulfill those things."

The reality of Baha'i beliefs about the historical Jesus have little resemblance to the Jesus of the gospels. Their Jesus is more like the Liberal Christian view of Jesus.... He was a nice guy, but didn't literally cast out demons and heal the crippled. And he, himself, did not literally come back to life. His physical body is dead. But spiritually, he is alive and spiritually he healed the spiritually blind and lame.

Did that "Liberal" view of Jesus "change" the world? Hell no, it was the God in the flesh Jesus that conquered Satan and rose from the dead. The Baha'i Faith is a fine religion for those that don't take the older religions very literal. It's a fine religion if you want another religion that is filled with laws and moral codes. It's a fine religion if you want to believe a man from Persia is the return of, not only Jesus, but the return of every promised one of every religion... like Krishna and/or Kalki and the Buddhist Maitreya and, for the Jews, the Messiah. The good things are they believe all people are one, all religions are one, and God is one. The bad things are the things you have to believe to get to the good stuff. If a person can buy in to all their interpretations and explanations, and are okay with living by their laws and moral codes, then it is a fine religion.

And, as an added bonus, you will never lose another argument or debate, because there are ways to manipulate anything to make both sides of the argument true for a Baha'i... like is Jesus God? "Yes". Is Jesus not God? "Yes". And that is true. They can argue and "prove", to themselves, both.
 
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