What would you expect people to do if a real God sent a real Messenger to earth?

[Trailblazer]

Yet it felt needful (according to you) to create a Special Messenger Class of human....

Which is Immoral. That is the actions of something in dire need... !

No need to go over this again either...

 

[Trailblazer]

Except the use if messengers is an IMMORAL act, and creates Special Teacher's Pets.

Why? Obviously, since being a god, it could have used a less immoral method, it has some serious needs.

(or it is just myth, like all the rest of historical gods)

God is omniscient so God knows the best way to communicate.

You are not omniscient you you do not know as much as God, let alone more than God. This is the logic 101 stuff that completely escapes you.

 

[Trailblazer]

Except that they don't.

Proof? The very existence of even one (1) atheist proves beyond a doubt, they failed their "mission"....

But wait! It's worse-- the existence of any other religion? Each such religion is another failure in their mission...

No Bob, they succeeded on their missions because 93% of people not only beleive in God but they got the message from the messenger.

The very existence of even one (1) atheist proves beyond a doubt, that the atheist failed to recognize the messenger so did not get the message.... Too bad they did not get what they wanted but God is not a short order cook.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

God is omniscient so God knows the best way to communicate.

Exactly! That fact proves that using messengers, means it cannot possibly be from a god who actually knows everything!

If me, a mere mortal can see how patently unfair it is? Well...

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

No Bob, they succeeded on their missions because 93% of people not only beleive in God but they got the message from the messenger.

Nope. That's not even remotely close to accurate-- your religion is not even 10% of the planet, let alone 93%.

More to the point? Your number is way-way too high. The latest research puts unbelievers closer to 20%, not 7%.

 

[Trailblazer]

What makes you so sure I'm unqualified?

God knows who is qualified and God chooses them accordingly. All I have to do is look at the LIFE of Baha'u'llah to know that nobody else could have DONE what He did..... We are not just talking about taking down some dictation from God.

And WHY is your god SO WEAK it cannot muster sufficient energy to speak to everyone, directly?

God could do that but God does not want to do that. An omnipotent God only does what it wants, not what you want. What about that logical point do you not understand?

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

The very existence of even one (1) atheist proves beyond a doubt, that the atheist failed to recognize the messenger so did not get the message.... Too bad they did not get what they wanted but God is not a short order cook.

But I thought your god knew everything? Yet-- it was incapable of convincing atheists?

Obviously, there is Information your god does NOT know: how to create a message that is convincing... .

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

God knows who is qualified and God chooses them accordingly. All I have to do is look at the LIFE of Baha'u'llah to know that nobody else could have DONE what He did..... We are not just talking about taking down some dictation from God.

A "magic" man who was delusional is not valid evidence, sorry.

God could do that but God does not want to do that. An omnipotent God only does what it wants, not what you want. What about that logical point do you not understand?

Aaaaand we are back to Might Makes Right-- except that it doesn't.

 

[Trailblazer]

Exactly! That fact proves that using messengers, means it cannot possibly be from a god who actually knows everything!

If me, a mere mortal can see how patently unfair it is? Well...

Unfair, like Johnny got a cookie and Bobby didn't.
That's too bad.

 

[Trailblazer]

Nope. That's not even remotely close to accurate-- your religion is not even 10% of the planet, let alone 93%.

More to the point? Your number is way-way too high. The latest research puts unbelievers closer to 20%, not 7%.

Give it up for lost. Most people believe in God. They do not need to believe in the latest messenger.

It is not 20% and the numbers of agnostics and atheists are dropping.

Since the year 2000, religion has made resurgence whereas atheism and agnosticism are on the decline.

Atheism was growing at a rate of 6.54% from 1910-2010 but dropped to a growth rate of 0.05% from 2000-2010. Agnosticism was growing at a rate of 5.45% from 1910-2010 but dropped to a growth rate of 0.32% from 2000-2010. That demonstrates that both atheism and agnosticism are on the decline but also that there are many more agnostics than atheists.

The growth rates of the Abrahamic religions from 1910-2010 were as follows: Judaism .11%, Christianity 1.32%, Islam 1.97%, and Baha’i Faith 3.54%.

Statistics from: Growth of religion - Wikipedia

 

[Trailblazer]

But I thought your god knew everything? Yet-- it was incapable of convincing atheists?

Obviously, there is Information your god does NOT know: how to create a message that is convincing... .

God has absolutely no interest in convincing anyone of anything.
It is your job to convince yourself, if you choose to.

Also, it helps to read the message. One cannot be convinced of a message they never read.

 

[Trailblazer]

A "magic" man who was delusional is not valid evidence, sorry.

Got any evidence of that?

Aaaaand we are back to Might Makes Right-- except that it doesn't.

Omniscience makes right.

 

[CG Didymus]

True, God could have done that, but there is a reason God uses the messengers...

For one thing, messengers have a mission and they always accomplish their mission, whereas nobody else ever could...

For another thing, messengers have worked to get the messages from God to the people from all of eternity, which is evidenced by the fact that almost everyone in the world believes in God and knows what the messages were...

Why should God change time honored His Method of communication just because a few atheists don't LIKE IT?

Any God that would take orders from humans would not be omnipotent, He would be a wimp.

I think I've asked this before, let me ask it again. Prior to Baha'u'llah what Scriptures would you follow? They all have contradictory beliefs. Which religion would you follow? Which denomination or sect of that religion would you follow? If none, why is that? But do you think, somehow, you'd still believe in God or would you maybe be an atheist?

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Unfair, like Johnny got a cookie and Bobby didn't.
That's too bad.

Except that for an All Powerful God? It is actually possible to give "cookies" to everyone.

Your example, is another case of Might Makes Right to "excuse" your god's immoral actions.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Give it up for lost. Most people believe in God. They do not need to believe in the latest messenger.

It is not 20% and the numbers of agnostics and atheists are dropping.

Since the year 2000, religion has made resurgence whereas atheism and agnosticism are on the decline.

Atheism was growing at a rate of 6.54% from 1910-2010 but dropped to a growth rate of 0.05% from 2000-2010. Agnosticism was growing at a rate of 5.45% from 1910-2010 but dropped to a growth rate of 0.32% from 2000-2010. That demonstrates that both atheism and agnosticism are on the decline but also that there are many more agnostics than atheists.

The growth rates of the Abrahamic religions from 1910-2010 were as follows: Judaism .11%, Christianity 1.32%, Islam 1.97%, and Baha’i Faith 3.54%.

Statistics from: Growth of religion - Wikipedia

Wiki is not a valid source in this instance-- because of religious bias, and the narrative of religious people are desperate to "prove" their religious beliefs are justified.

Moreover? In Europe, churches are having to close their doors, due to a lack of attendance.

Among millennials? The most common choice when asked about "religion" is "none"

Here in the USA? We see the exact same trend: church membership is rapidly aging, as young people refuse to participate, leaving the ever-older parents and grand-parents behind.

The Internet has ushered in the Age Of Free Information-- and young people grew up with it literally in their hands.

It's Telling, that the younger you are, the more likely you are to be "non-religious" if asked.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

God has absolutely no interest in convincing anyone of anything.
It is your job to convince yourself, if you choose to.

Also, it helps to read the message. One cannot be convinced of a message they never read.

I have absolutely zero respect for any being who cannot manage to be convincing directly.

That is a consequence of this being supposedly being All Powerful-- and more-- All Knowing.

It would automatically know that using a silly, ancient message is pretty worthless-- unless it's deliberate intent was to NOT BE CONVINCING.

If that is the case? It worked.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Got any evidence of that?

All gods, by definition, require MAGIC to even exist, but also to usurp the Laws of Physics.

So any self-proclaimed speaker-for-god? Is automatically a "magic man".

Which also makes them automatically unreliable... because never in the history of Earth, has the answer turned out to be "magic"....

Omniscience makes right.

Nope: Might does NOT make Right.

 

[Trailblazer]

I think I've asked this before, let me ask it again. Prior to Baha'u'llah what Scriptures would you follow? They all have contradictory beliefs. Which religion would you follow? Which denomination or sect of that religion would you follow? If none, why is that? But do you think, somehow, you'd still believe in God or would you maybe be an atheist?

Had I not stumbled on the Baha’i Faith, I doubt I would ever have looked for a religion. I had no interest in God or religion. I never saw the inside of a church growing up because both my parents dropped out of Christianity before I was born. I had never read one page of the Bible growing up and I still had never read one page of it until about five years ago.

I would never be a Christian because of the superstitious doctrines. Even if I chose to read and follow the Bible and not belong to a church, the Bible is not a reliable source of information about God and it is outdated. The only other religion I might consider would be Islam, but I probably would not think of that since I do not live in a culture where Muslims predominate. I only know about the Qur’an because Baha’u’llah quoted it so many times.

I cannot say if I would believe in God because I cannot recall even thinking about God before I became a Baha’i. But knowing myself as I do, if I was thinking about God at all I would be an agnostic or a deist had I not stumbled upon the Baha’i Faith. I would not be an atheist because there is no proof that God does not exist, and it makes sense to me that God exists.

 

[Trailblazer]

Except that for an All Powerful God? It is actually possible to give "cookies" to everyone.

Your example, is another case of Might Makes Right to "excuse" your god's immoral actions.

God does not want to give cookies to everyone.

God only does what God wants to do. That comes with being All-Powerful. If people don't like that they are bad candidates for belief in God.

 

[Trailblazer]

Wiki is not a valid source in this instance-- because of religious bias, and the narrative of religious people are desperate to "prove" their religious beliefs are justified.

Moreover? In Europe, churches are having to close their doors, due to a lack of attendance.

Among millennials? The most common choice when asked about "religion" is "none"

Here in the USA? We see the exact same trend: church membership is rapidly aging, as young people refuse to participate, leaving the ever-older parents and grand-parents behind.

The Internet has ushered in the Age Of Free Information-- and young people grew up with it literally in their hands.

It's Telling, that the younger you are, the more likely you are to be "non-religious" if asked.

Sure, people are dropping out of Christianity in Europe and America because rational educated people can no longer believe in the superstitious doctrines of the church. That accounts for a lot of atheists.

It is also true that younger people are likely to be non-religious, but that says nothing about belief in God. Atheism is declining, but belief in God is not declining as more and more people find ways to believe in God with no religion at all.