What!!?

[Unification]

God is cause and effect? God's actions are determined which God cannot alter from?



So you'll be punished or rewarded for your actions. Assuming you do good to others then good will be done to you.
I don't really follow that code. I act from compassion, not because good will be done to me or to avoid bad things. I expect nothing in return for my actions, good or bad.

Here's a story, I think it was from the TV show, Kung Fu... so I'm paraphrasing

There was this monk walking along the beach who came upon a scorpion which was drowning in the water. The monk reached in to pull the scorpion from the water whereupon the scorpion stung the monk which cause the monk to drop the scorpion back into the water. The monk again reach in to pull the scorpion from the water and was again stung. This happen several times. A nearby onlooker saw this and ask the monk why do you continually allow the scorpion to sting you. The monk replied, "It is according to my nature to try and save the scorpion. The scorpion stings me because it is also acting according to it's nature.



Then you had better be very sensitive to the needs of others lest you accidentally cause them harm.



In which case, there's no sense in trying.

It's a wonderful thing doing compassion without expecting anything in return. The entire complex would be works in vain, and an impure intent.

Your belief in reincarnation, is it off of what is gradually accumulated through evolution of consciousness? Would one be born into a more stable and loving environment based off of their pure or harmful intent in their prior life? If I lived like an animal in this life, would I be born into suffering in another physical body in a more suffering environment for my prior actions? Karma? Cause and effect?

 

[Nakosis]

It's a wonderful thing doing compassion without expecting anything in return. The entire complex would be works in vain, and an impure intent.

Your belief in reincarnation, is it off of what is gradually accumulated through evolution of consciousness? Would one be born into a more stable and loving environment based off of their pure or harmful intent in their prior life? If I lived like an animal in this life, would I be born into suffering in another physical body in a more suffering environment for my prior actions? Karma? Cause and effect?

I don't know. I suspect that if something like reincarnation were true that folks own desire affects what they become in each life. If you returned as a dog it's because you wanted to be a dog on some conscious level.

It's not punishment, though from the outside looking in, it may seem that way. People are driven by their emotions so they allow their emotions to decide. Anger, greed hate cause people to act as their emotions dictate. Their own emotions/desires drive them to their next rebirth, not some law of cause and effect.

 

[InChrist]

The highest goal of a cynic is happiness. The wisdom here is to obey God in fear or awe of God's judgement assuming that obedience to God will bring happiness.

This puts God in control of your happiness. It assumes that if you act in a manner that the prophets say God wants you to act, you will be rewarded.

So we act not because we are good but because we will be rewarded or punished for those actions. No one is good except God right? We are not of our own nature good, so must be enticed through punishment and reward to good action.

I hate being enticed, controlled, manipulated to act. I'd rather be free to make my choices and accept the consequences of those choices. The ability to do so makes me happy.

I think you have missed the point of the scriptures, at least the highest goal of God and that is LOVE. It may be true that because God also embodies justice evil will be punished, but I believe His highest goal and purpose for humanity is love and His greatest desire is that human beings would obey not out of fear, but out of a free choice to respond to Him and His goodness with gratefulness, out of love and live in eternally with Him in a glorious oneness and joyful relationship.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

The highest goal of a cynic is happiness. The wisdom here is to obey God in fear or awe of God's judgement assuming that obedience to God will bring happiness.
This puts God in control of your happiness. It assumes that if you act in a manner that the prophets say God wants you to act, you will be rewarded.
So we act not because we are good but because we will be rewarded or punished for those actions. No one is good except God right? We are not of our own nature good, so must be enticed through punishment and reward to good action.
I hate being enticed, controlled, manipulated to act. I'd rather be free to make my choices and accept the consequences of those choices. The ability to do so makes me happy.

Yes, your free-will choices should make you happy. Isn't there so much on earth to make us happy !
Happy people can choose to serve God or Not serve God.
I was happy before I even started reading and studying the Bible.
My goal was never how happy I was or wasn't, but to thankfully serve God for our gift of life on such a wonderful earthly home.
I'm very happy and content being here on earth. God's Law of Love is good for everyone - Matthew 7:12; Leviticus 19:18 B
What was Adam's punishment but simply returning to the dust of the earth - Genesis 3:19
So, if a person wants to find pleasure or happiness in wickedness, then that person will end up as Adam did. - Psalms 92:7
Adam went from non-life, to life, and returned, or went back, to non-life or non-existence.
We all (whether happy or unhappy ) have the freedom to act responsibly toward our Heavenly Father (Life Giver )

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I don't know. I suspect that if something like reincarnation were true that folks own desire affects what they become in each life. If you returned as a dog it's because you wanted to be a dog on some conscious level.
It's not punishment, though from the outside looking in, it may seem that way. People are driven by their emotions so they allow their emotions to decide. Anger, greed hate cause people to act as their emotions dictate. Their own emotions/desires drive them to their next rebirth, not some law of cause and effect.

Since we receive 50% of our genes from one parent and 50% of our genes from the other parent, then how could reincarnation or a next rebirth happen ?
Rather resurrection ( restoring of the dead person back to life ) would be more meaningful.
Most people think of resurrection as in meaning going to heaven at death, whereas what the Bible really teaches is the dead are in a sleep-like state. Some do have a first or earlier resurrection to heaven - Revelation 20:6, but the majority of mankind will have a future resurrection back to healthy life on earth starting when Jesus soon governs over earth for a thousand years. Acts of the Apostles 24:15

 

[Nakosis]

I think you have missed the point of the scriptures, at least the highest goal of God and that is LOVE. It may be true that because God also embodies justice evil will be punished, but I believe His highest goal and purpose for humanity is love and His greatest desire is that human beings would obey not out of fear, but out of a free choice to respond to Him and His goodness with gratefulness, out of love and live in eternally with Him in a glorious oneness and joyful relationship.

It doesn't say much about that in Ecclesiastes. Perhaps in other books?

 

[Nakosis]

Yes, your free-will choices should make you happy. Isn't there so much on earth to make us happy !
Happy people can choose to serve God or Not serve God.
I was happy before I even started reading and studying the Bible.
My goal was never how happy I was or wasn't, but to thankfully serve God for our gift of life on such a wonderful earthly home.
I'm very happy and content being here on earth. God's Law of Love is good for everyone - Matthew 7:12; Leviticus 19:18 B
What was Adam's punishment but simply returning to the dust of the earth - Genesis 3:19
So, if a person wants to find pleasure or happiness in wickedness, then that person will end up as Adam did. - Psalms 92:7
Adam went from non-life, to life, and returned, or went back, to non-life or non-existence.
We all (whether happy or unhappy ) have the freedom to act responsibly toward our Heavenly Father (Life Giver )

Why? What do you believe you will gain from this service to God?

 

[Nakosis]

Since we receive 50% of our genes from one parent and 50% of our genes from the other parent, then how could reincarnation or a next rebirth happen ?
Rather resurrection ( restoring of the dead person back to life ) would be more meaningful.
Most people think of resurrection as in meaning going to heaven at death, whereas what the Bible really teaches is the dead are in a sleep-like state. Some do have a first or earlier resurrection to heaven - Revelation 20:6, but the majority of mankind will have a future resurrection back to healthy life on earth starting when Jesus soon governs over earth for a thousand years. Acts of the Apostles 24:15

Probably a discussion for another thread. Exactly what is the Christian belief about what happens after you die. Catholics believe differently, I assume they use the same Bible.

Personally I don't know with any certainty. Don't have any vested interest. However I'll say lying in the grave makes little sense. If you dig up a grave, alls you'll find is a decaying or decomposed corpse. So that can't mean anything literally. If metaphorically, then an analogy to what?

 

[Thief]

Probably a discussion for another thread. Exactly what is the Christian belief about what happens after you die. Catholics believe differently, I assume they use the same Bible.

Personally I don't know with any certainty. Don't have any vested interest. However I'll say lying in the grave makes little sense. If you dig up a grave, alls you'll find is a decaying or decomposed corpse. So that can't mean anything literally. If metaphorically, then an analogy to what?

and here's my jest of it....
One of two things can happen in the hour of your last breath.

You could just lay there....
Your fellow man with gather your remains and into the box you go.
a quick service and into the ground goes the box.

Eternal darkness is physically real.
No form of light follows anyone into the grave.

Or...
that desire to stand up will be there....yes it will.
I suggest you go with it.
Stand up.
God and heaven will come around to see what stands from the dust.

What happens after that is cause and effect.
whatever you have dealt unto others will return to you....as many times as there are others.

How else to be fair?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Why? What do you believe you will gain from this service to God?

* Gain knowing Satan is proven a liar that No one would serve God especially under adverse conditions.
- Job 2:4-5 - Satan's claim that: touch our ' flesh ' ( Loose physical health ) and people would turn away from God.
* Gain knowing there is going to be a resurrection.....- 1 Corinthians 15:12-17; Acts of the Apostles 24:15
Not just a heavenly resurrection for some - Revelation 20:6, but that there is also going to be an earthly resurrection.
* Gain knowing that at the soon coming ' time of separation' on earth when humble ' sheep'-like people can remain alive on earth and continue to live on earth right into the start of Jesus' coming 1,000-year day of governing over earth when Jesus will usher in global Peace on Earth among men of goodwill. - Matthew 25:31-32
* Gain knowing that when Jesus talked of everlasting life, or eternal life, that such life would be either in heaven or forever on earth in connection to Jesus' promise at Matthew 5:5 in his reference to Psalms 37:11; Psalms 37:29
* Gain knowing mankind on earth will see the return of the Genesis ' Tree of Life ' representing being able to live forever, everlasting life, on a beautifully restored paradise earth as described at Revelation 22:2; Revelation 21:4-5

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Probably a discussion for another thread. Exactly what is the Christian belief about what happens after you die. Catholics believe differently, I assume they use the same Bible.
Personally I don't know with any certainty. Don't have any vested interest. However I'll say lying in the grave makes little sense. If you dig up a grave, all you'll find is a decaying or decomposed corpse. So that can't mean anything literally. If metaphorically, then an analogy to what?

The Bible talks of God's Book of Life. The dead in God's memory can be restored back to life.
Some called to heavenly life to serve with Jesus - Revelation 20:6; Revelation 5:9-10
The majority of mankind to be restored back to healthy physical life on earth. Acts of the Apostles 24:15
Remember those who have drowned and buried at sea can't be dug up.
Those whose bodies where destroyed by bombs or house fires can't be dug up.
According to Revelation 20:13 the ' sea ' will give up its dead.
So, a literal decomposing body would Not be needed, but being remembered by God is what is needed.
Their names are recorded, so to speak, in God's memory Book of Life.

What happened to Jesus the day Jesus died?
According to Scripture Jesus went to the grave. (KJV uses the English word hell ) - Acts of the Apostles 2:27
Jesus taught only ' sleep ' in death - John 11:11-14
Jesus taught from the old Hebrew Scriptures which also teach sleep in death.
- References: Ecclesiastes 9:5; Psalms 115:17 ; Psalms 146:4 ; Daniel 12:2; Daniel 12:13

Especially when the Jews began mixing with the Greeks they adopted Greek ( non-biblical ) theories and philosophies and began teaching them as Scripture although Not really found in Scripture. When the people of ancient Babylon left Babylon they took with them their non-biblical religious myth ideas and practices and spread them world wide into a greater religious Babylon or Babylon the Great. Thus forming a religious syncretism. That is why we see so many similar or overlapping religious ideas spread throughout the earth today. That includes the modern-day monstrosity of ' Christendom' ( so-called Christian but mostly in name only )

None of this makes the Bible's condition about the dead Not knowing anything as wrong, but makes the opposite teachings as wrong.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

and here's my jest of it....
One of two things can happen in the hour of your last breath.
You could just lay there....
Your fellow man with gather your remains and into the box you go.
a quick service and into the ground goes the box.
Eternal darkness is physically real.
No form of light follows anyone into the grave.
Or...
that desire to stand up will be there....yes it will.
I suggest you go with it.
Stand up.
God and heaven will come around to see what stands from the dust.
What happens after that is cause and effect.
whatever you have dealt unto others will return to you....as many times as there are others.
How else to be fair?

Unless a person has committed the unforgivable sin - Matthew 12:32 ;Hebrews 6:4-6, then the dead person will have a resurrection.
Romans 6:7 mentions that death frees or acquits a person from their sins. The price tag that sin pays is : death - Romans 6:23
Those being resurrected back to life on earth does Not mean they are then innocent, but as a governor can pardon a person so the crime charges do not stick, Jesus can pardon a person so the sin charges No longer stick. So, the dead will be judged on what they do ' after ' they are brought back to life on earth. For the unrighteous ( those who practiced unrighteousness while alive ) will have a harder time conforming to righteousness, but that will be up to them after they are resurrected. They will have the choice and have the freedom to act responsibly toward God.

 

[Thief]

Unless a person has committed the unforgivable sin - Matthew 12:32 ;Hebrews 6:4-6, then the dead person will have a resurrection.
Romans 6:7 mentions that death frees or acquits a person from their sins. The price tag that sin pays is : death - Romans 6:23
Those being resurrected back to life on earth does Not mean they are then innocent, but as a governor can pardon a person so the crime charges do not stick, Jesus can pardon a person so the sin charges No longer stick. So, the dead will be judged on what they do ' after ' they are brought back to life on earth. For the unrighteous ( those who practiced unrighteousness while alive ) will have a harder time conforming to righteousness, but that will be up to them after they are resurrected. They will have the choice and have the freedom to act responsibly toward God.

Instead, I prefer to say.....
We live in sin.....sin (in Spanish) means 'without'.
We do live without God.
We have only the scribes and the prophets.
(I don't follow congregation)

Death frees us from sin.
God and heaven will be there in your last hour....
to see what stands from the dust.
(this is resurrection)

God is Spirit.
the sons of God are spirit.

 

[Thief]

Romans 6:7 mentions that death frees or acquits a person from their sins. The price tag that sin pays is : death - Romans 6:23
Those being resurrected back to life on earth does Not mean they are then innocent, but as a governor can pardon a person so the crime charges do not stick, Jesus can pardon a person so the sin charges No longer stick. .

You can do the same.....
Forgive your fellow man.
"forgive our trespasses......as we forgive others....."

so I've heard.

 

[Nakosis]

The Bible talks of God's Book of Life. The dead in God's memory can be restored back to life.
Some called to heavenly life to serve with Jesus - Revelation 20:6; Revelation 5:9-10
The majority of mankind to be restored back to healthy physical life on earth. Acts of the Apostles 24:15
Remember those who have drowned and buried at sea can't be dug up.
Those whose bodies where destroyed by bombs or house fires can't be dug up.
According to Revelation 20:13 the ' sea ' will give up its dead.
So, a literal decomposing body would Not be needed, but being remembered by God is what is needed.
Their names are recorded, so to speak, in God's memory Book of Life.

For an omnipotent being, sure why not. God could create/uncreate at will. If you live a memorable life, why wouldn't God want you bring you back. There's no necessary physical connection except this memory.

What happened to Jesus the day Jesus died?
According to Scripture Jesus went to the grave. (KJV uses the English word hell ) - Acts of the Apostles 2:27
Jesus taught only ' sleep ' in death - John 11:11-14
Jesus taught from the old Hebrew Scriptures which also teach sleep in death.
- References: Ecclesiastes 9:5; Psalms 115:17 ; Psalms 146:4 ; Daniel 12:2; Daniel 12:13

Or cease to exist except as a memory?

Especially when the Jews began mixing with the Greeks they adopted Greek ( non-biblical ) theories and philosophies and began teaching them as Scripture although Not really found in Scripture. When the people of ancient Babylon left Babylon they took with them their non-biblical religious myth ideas and practices and spread them world wide into a greater religious Babylon or Babylon the Great. Thus forming a religious syncretism. That is why we see so many similar or overlapping religious ideas spread throughout the earth today. That includes the modern-day monstrosity of ' Christendom' ( so-called Christian but mostly in name only )

None of this makes the Bible's condition about the dead Not knowing anything as wrong, but makes the opposite teachings as wrong.

Ok, but how do you know how far back this syncretism goes? The Jews were writing the Bible around 600BC? How many other religious culture went into influencing that? Some feel even Moses was influence by Egyptian religious culture.

You use Revelations, how certain are you of it's lack of syncretism?

 

[Nakosis]

* Gain knowing Satan is proven a liar that No one would serve God especially under adverse conditions.
- Job 2:4-5 - Satan's claim that: touch our ' flesh ' ( Loose physical health ) and people would turn away from God.
* Gain knowing there is going to be a resurrection.....- 1 Corinthians 15:12-17; Acts of the Apostles 24:15
Not just a heavenly resurrection for some - Revelation 20:6, but that there is also going to be an earthly resurrection.
* Gain knowing that at the soon coming ' time of separation' on earth when humble ' sheep'-like people can remain alive on earth and continue to live on earth right into the start of Jesus' coming 1,000-year day of governing over earth when Jesus will usher in global Peace on Earth among men of goodwill. - Matthew 25:31-32
* Gain knowing that when Jesus talked of everlasting life, or eternal life, that such life would be either in heaven or forever on earth in connection to Jesus' promise at Matthew 5:5 in his reference to Psalms 37:11; Psalms 37:29
* Gain knowing mankind on earth will see the return of the Genesis ' Tree of Life ' representing being able to live forever, everlasting life, on a beautifully restored paradise earth as described at Revelation 22:2; Revelation 21:4-5

Ok, will the lack of knowledge change anything for you?

Say you know all of this and I know nothing about it. How will having this knowledge affect you in ways that my lack of knowledge won't effect me?

 

[Thief]

For an omnipotent being, sure why not. God could create/uncreate at will. If you live a memorable life, why wouldn't God want you bring you back. There's no necessary physical connection except this memory.



Or cease to exist except as a memory?



Ok, but how do you know how far back this syncretism goes? The Jews were writing the Bible around 600BC? How many other religious culture went into influencing that? Some feel even Moses was influence by Egyptian religious culture.

You use Revelations, how certain are you of it's lack of syncretism?

did someone say?.....remember...
and the Thief beside Him said.....
'Remember me when You receive your kingdom.'
and the Carpenter replied....
'This day you walk with Me in paradise.'

seems to be an item ....immediate...

 

[URAVIP2ME]

For an omnipotent being, sure why not. God could create/uncreate at will. If you live a memorable life, why wouldn't God want you bring you back. There's no necessary physical connection except this memory.
Or cease to exist except as a memory?
Ok, but how do you know how far back this syncretism goes? The Jews were writing the Bible around 600BC? How many other religious culture went into influencing that? Some feel even Moses was influence by Egyptian religious culture.
You use Revelations, how certain are you of it's lack of syncretism?

Revelation is Not connected to the practices of ancient Babylon.

Genesis 10:8-10 mentions Noah's great-grandson Nimrod who established ancient Babylon after the Flood of Noah's day.
If we trace mankind's religious family tree back to its base or roots we trace it back to ancient Babylon.
As the people migrated from ancient Babylon they took with them their myth-religious practices and ideas and spread them world wide into a greater religious Babylon, or Babylon the Great. That is why we see so many similar or overlapping ideas in the world's religions today.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

did someone say?.....remember...
and the Thief beside Him said.....
'Remember me when You receive your kingdom.'
and the Carpenter replied....
'This day you walk with Me in paradise.'
seems to be an item ....immediate...

Please keep in mind the day Jesus died Jesus went to the grave (KJV biblical hell ) - Acts of the Apostles 2:27
Jesus did Not ascent to ' heaven ' until 40 days after God resurrected the dead Jesus out of the grave - Acts of the Apostles 3:15

So, the ' this day ' is ' the day of death' Jesus made the promise for a future on a paradisaical earth.
Even the people of Hebrews 11:13; Hebrews 11:39 did Not yet see the fulfillment of the promise.
The promise God made to father Abraham at Genesis 12:3; Genesis 22:18 that all families and nations of earth will be blessed.
Blessed with the healing of earth's nations through Jesus' coming 1,000 governmental rulership over earth. - Revelation 22:2

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Ok, will the lack of knowledge change anything for you?
Say you know all of this and I know nothing about it. How will having this knowledge affect you in ways that my lack of knowledge won't effect me?

No one need be without biblical knowledge or education.
- Matthew 26:12-13
The Bible's message of Revelation 22:2 was written for our day or time frame.
Acts of the Apostles 17:30-31 - mentions the times of such biblical ignorance is past.
Everyone who sincerely seeks God will find him - Zephaniah 2:3
No one can stop the Bible, or stop God's people from the international spreading about the Good News of God's Kingdom government being the solution for mankind's problems. That Jesus will be the one who will usher in global Peace on Earth among men of goodwill.