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What!!?

Unification

Well-Known Member
And people choose the interpretation they feel comfortable with, with no real gurantee they are correct. I've been there, done that and realized I was just fooling myself. What you don't like you look for a way to interpret in some way you ind meaningful. Where you fail in that you assume a metaphorical meaning.

People are not finding truth in scripture. They are creating some idea of God they can live with so they can assume their membership among the folks who will be rewarded by God for their obedience.

Ecclesiastes intent seems pretty clear, barring any squabbles about details in translation. I understand the dilemma it raises. It's a common philosophical issue that man comes across in trying to understand his purpose and what choices are good and wise. It's answer is to fear judgement by God. For the author, nothing else makes sense.

However, really what do you know about God. What others have told you, some subjective experience you feel proves to you God's existence? Is there any real validation of any of this?

I for myself have to say honestly no. However I do have an answer which I find for me works. Can't say it's going to work for anyone else.

Text quarrel is of the lower mind anyhow. No benefit. It's just words written in many different ways. All the different self interpretations create religion and divide.

I know what "God" is not. Like a blackhole, gravitational pull so powerful cannot be missed or mistaken. Electrical synapses across my brain of wonderful energy, radically transforming my mind and heart. I died, and now I'm alive. One must find their own way and validation, as you've found something that works for you.

Sure thing, billions of individual "god's" have been created in man's imagination and attached to physical objects.

You've found your inner divinity and are one with all?

Purpose is discover inner divinity, not to become attached to anything, not have expectations, be content, thankful, and live a fulfilled, loving, pure intended, peaceable life in the present. Defeat concept of self-ego-pysche. Life is a journey, not an end destination. Adhere to the laws of nature(God), not be a manpleaser or live in vanity. Truth is instilled and brought within, not what appears to be so and where the crowd is. Searching "out there" for truth is the same as searching for "God" out there, in which case, can never be found or validated.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
The biblical ' punishment ' is: destruction.
The wicked will be destroyed forever - Psalms 92:7
There are two choices: Repent or Perish - 2 Peter 3:9
Perish also means destruction.

Please also keep in mind that judgment in Scripture is Not always adverse judgment. The humble ' sheep'-like people have a very favorable judgment.
-Matthew 25:31-32; Matthew 25:37; Matthew 25:40

The highest goal of a cynic is happiness. The wisdom here is to obey God in fear or awe of God's judgement assuming that obedience to God will bring happiness.

This puts God in control of your happiness. It assumes that if you act in a manner that the prophets say God wants you to act, you will be rewarded.

So we act not because we are good but because we will be rewarded or punished for those actions. No one is good except God right? We are not of our own nature good, so must be enticed through punishment and reward to good action.

I hate being enticed, controlled, manipulated to act. I'd rather be free to make my choices and accept the consequences of those choices. The ability to do so makes me happy.
 

Unification

Well-Known Member
Ok, but the message in Ecclesiastics is to act because of fear or awe of Gods judgement? This being the foundation of wisdom.

Am I wrong?

Sure, you believe in reincarnation. If someone hated a homosexual, what if they knew they'd become one?

If someone wanted to go out and rape someone, should they fear the consequences if they knew they reap what they sow due to the laws of nature and cause and effect? Would it be better to fear the consequences, walk away from the desire to rape, or to just go rape because there is nothing to fear?
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
That wasn't exactly what I was asking. I was asking how you perceive the cycle that is described in Eccl.? What is being cycled here? Why is it advantageous to leave such a cycle?
I'm trying to understand where you're coming from.

There maybe no leaving the cycle. I actually don't know that I want to. I can however effect, control my happiness during whatever this happens to be.

Maybe it's a misunderstanding of Buddhism, to leave the cycle of birth and death, kharma and reincarnation. Enter nirvana. Maybe the only thing we are leaving is the cycle of pain and suffering. Being controlled and manipulated by desire/temptation.

Maybe we are stuck on some infinite merry-go-round with no off lever. Maybe nirvana/heaven is not getting off the ride but choosing to enjoy it. Either case I'd rather enjoy life now than suffer through it with a promise that joy will come at some later date with no real reason to trust that promise.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Sure, you believe in reincarnation. If someone hated a homosexual, what if they knew they'd become one?

If someone wanted to go out and rape someone, should they fear the consequences if they knew they reap what they sow due to the laws of nature and cause and effect? Would it be better to fear the consequences, walk away from the desire to rape, or to just go rape because there is nothing to fear?

I don't fear these things. If I control the spiritual, then the physical cannot affect the spiritual unless I choose to allow it. I don't know exactly how much the spiritual can affect the physical, but it can. I'm not sure the boundaries but I'm interested in finding out how much.

The choices I make are made from my own sense of compassion. Compassion comes from my own suffering, these consequences you say would be better to fear. Why should we fear that which brings compassion?

Suffering is the catalyst of compassion. In the stories of Buddha and Jesus I see them act from compassion for their fellow human being. Not fear of punishment nor consequence.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
There maybe no leaving the cycle. I actually don't know that I want to. I can however effect, control my happiness during whatever this happens to be.

Maybe it's a misunderstanding of Buddhism, to leave the cycle of birth and death, kharma and reincarnation. Enter nirvana. Maybe the only thing we are leaving is the cycle of pain and suffering. Being controlled and manipulated by desire/temptation.

Maybe we are stuck on some infinite merry-go-round with no off lever. Maybe nirvana/heaven is not getting off the ride but choosing to enjoy it. Either case I'd rather enjoy life now than suffer through it with a promise that joy will come at some later date with no real reason to trust that promise.
Why do you think the cycle that is being referred to in Eccl. is a cycle of birth and death or of pain and suffering?
If you look at the wording of the verses, it doesn't even use the word "cycle", it seems to just say that events repeat themselves. I don't see any reason to associate that with something specifically negative or positive. The sun rises in the east today and it rose in the east yesterday. Maybe its just talking about things like that?
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Why do you think the cycle that is being referred to in Eccl. is a cycle of birth and death or of pain and suffering?
If you look at the wording of the verses, it doesn't even use the word "cycle", it seems to just say that events repeat themselves. I don't see any reason to associate that with something specifically negative or positive. The sun rises in the east today and it rose in the east yesterday. Maybe its just talking about things like that?

You don't see what is written throughout the rest of Ecclesiastes? It refers to both pleasure and suffering.
 

Unification

Well-Known Member
I don't fear these things. If I control the spiritual, then the physical cannot affect the spiritual unless I choose to allow it. I don't know exactly how much the spiritual can affect the physical, but it can. I'm not sure the boundaries but I'm interested in finding out how much.

The choices I make are made from my own sense of compassion. Compassion comes from my own suffering, these consequences you say would be better to fear. Why should we fear that which brings compassion?

Suffering is the catalyst of compassion. In the stories of Buddha and Jesus I see them act from compassion for their fellow human being. Not fear of punishment nor consequence.

That is a good way of putting what "God" is. The sum total of all. That which is unmanifested(spirit) in that which is manifested(physical matter.)
Which is infinite potential. Some say "Brahma" some say "God" some say "Allah." No difference. Just words.

Suffering does turn into compassion. Own sensation of ability to feel. The same sensation all individuals can experience within.

Yes, Buddah and Jesus taught the same things. They were also of the divine internal consciousness and had nothing to fear.

There is no fear of punishment, consequence when one achieves the "Christ consciousness" or "Enlightenment" or "higher consciousness," or whichever words suit. Due to being led by pure consciousness, and the complete absolved and death to self/pysche/ego, it becomes impossible for the nature of that being to perform ill and negative energetic actions to themselves and others, and in return there is no fear or consequences, as they see others as an extension of themselves.

For one separated of mind in duality and the physical, fear is a good start before the dawning and rising of wisdom.

Fear is of the ego, the ego works through experience, and suffering through conscious involution and conscious evolution in the physical plane. The ego is not completely "bad." It's necessary to work through the rigors of conscious evolution before its ready to be crucified. Suffering ceases then.

That is the problem with suffering. How does one interpret if they are suffering for their actions and trying to be taught a lesson consciously, or if they are suffering because that's what this life is about due to text teachings and interpretations of man? Look at the western world and the eastern world. It's no different from how the western and eastern hemispheres of the brain work. When the two spheres become one, and whole, and even, that higher consciousness is reached. Meditation and light arises from the East side of the brain, now it's needed to combine that with the Western Hemisphere of the brain. The largest problem with Eastern teaching is suffering. After enlightenment, suffering should cease. When one can see truth as a puzzle, with pieces hidden in all religions and place them all together, it's a wonderful thing. On the evolution to enlightenment, suffering brings compassion. To keep suffering after enlightenment is not happiness, rest, or peace, or fullfillment wholly in mind. Suffering is a conscious state of hell, and not much better than fear. It also has control, dominion, and a stronghold over one. Hell/suffering, ego, fear... They are necessary up until a point they are crucified.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
You don't see what is written throughout the rest of Ecclesiastes? It refers to both pleasure and suffering.
Those are two of the topics among the many that are spoken about in Eccl. But take a look at the first time its mentioned in 1:9. The previous verses speak about people living and dying, the sun rising and setting, the wind blowing, the rivers running. And then it says, what was will be. Nothing there about pleasure and suffering. Just nature running its course in a consistent manner.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
...
Which is infinite potential. Some say "Brahma" some say "God" some say "Allah." No difference. Just words.
On the evolution to enlightenment, suffering brings compassion. To keep suffering after enlightenment is not happiness, rest, or peace, or fullfillment wholly in mind. Suffering is a conscious state of hell, and not much better than fear. It also has control, dominion, and a stronghold over one. Hell/suffering, ego, fear... They are necessary up until a point they are crucified.

There is nothing for me to argue against here.

There is a time for religion, there is a time for good and evil, there is a time for greed and a time for self sacrifice.

There was a time for judgement, both to judge and to be judged. For me, this time seems to have passed.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Those are two of the topics among the many that are spoken about in Eccl. But take a look at the first time its mentioned in 1:9. The previous verses speak about people living and dying, the sun rising and setting, the wind blowing, the rivers running. And then it says, what was will be. Nothing there about pleasure and suffering. Just nature running its course in a consistent manner.

Ok, that's fine but I think focusing on two verses out of the entire book of Ecclesiastes is the mistake I first made.

Instead of critiquing my understanding, why not explain what you understand Ecclesiastes to be about?
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
Ok, that's fine but I think focusing on two verses out of the entire book of Ecclesiastes is the mistake I first made.

Instead of critiquing my understanding, why not explain what you understand Ecclesiastes to be about?
I didn't mean to come off that way. I was just trying to understand where you were coming from.
I think that verse is just saying that the universe is repetitive and consistent. For good, bad and neutral. Life, nature, history, everything repeats itself reliably.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
I didn't mean to come off that way. I was just trying to understand where you were coming from.
I think that verse is just saying that the universe is repetitive and consistent. For good, bad and neutral. Life, nature, history, everything repeats itself reliably.

Ok have no problem with understanding the verse in this sense. You see it as being reliable and consistent. I suppose a person might find some comfort in that. Everything has a place and a purpose whether we understand it or not?
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
Ok have no problem with understanding the verse in this sense. You see it as being reliable and consistent. I suppose a person might find some comfort in that. Everything has a place and a purpose whether we understand it or not?
Not in that sense. More like "There are unbreakable laws of nature". I don't think its meant to be comforting. Its just an observation. The sun rises in the east every day, 365 days a year. That may be comforting for some, but the point is that there are natural laws that are set in stone.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
Ecclesiastes 3
12 I know that there is nothing better for people than to be happy and to do good while they live. 13 That each of them may eat and drink, and find satisfaction in all their toil—this is the gift of God. 14 I know that everything God does will endure forever; nothing can be added to it and nothing taken from it. God does it so that people will fear him.

I think the fear indicated here is a respect for one in a position of authority. It's like, if you were pulled over by an officer for speeding you would be wise to show a certain amount of respect rather than argue or become aggressive against his authority. A respectful response may even bring about a warning instead of a ticket while the latter would likely result in a ticket at least or could result in jail or worse depending on the level of disrespect or aggression.
The verses previous to those you posted indicate that God the Creator has provided everything for a purpose, not only in for this life, but forever. The pleasures of this life are gifts from God, yet they become vain apart from God and eternity. I think the message is that this awareness of the Creator's unique position, gifts to humanity, and eternal purpose should cause people to respect Him.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
I think the fear indicated here is a respect for one in a position of authority. It's like, if you were pulled over by an officer for speeding you would be wise to show a certain amount of respect rather than argue or become aggressive against his authority. A respectful response may even bring about a warning instead of a ticket while the latter would likely result in a ticket at least or could result in jail or worse depending on the level of disrespect or aggression.
The verses previous to those you posted indicate that God the Creator has provided everything for a purpose, not only in for this life, but forever. The pleasures of this life are gifts from God, yet they become vain apart from God and eternity. I think the message is that this awareness of the Creator's unique position, gifts to humanity, and eternal purpose should cause people to respect Him.

Here is a summary of the message I get from Ecclesiastics...

Any wisdom in which fear/awe/respect for God and his commandments are not included is in vain/meaningless.
Whether I agree with it or not is besides the point. This seems the clear message.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
Here is a summary of the message I get from Ecclesiastics...

Any wisdom in which fear/awe/respect for God and his commandments are not included is in vain/meaningless.
Whether I agree with it or not is besides the point. This seems the clear message.
That seems to be a good summary. I think the message of not only Ecclesiastics, but all the scriptures is that God is the Source of any real or meaningful wisdom.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Don't you "fear/revere" God's judgement?
You make your choices because you will be judged? This is the wisdom of Ecclesiastes. To act knowing you will be judged for your actions.

If not for punishment or reward, what reasoning do you have for your actions?
cause and effect.

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
a code of behavior and fair warning.

It will be done unto you as you did unto others......
with every occasion you meet another....

You cannot earn your way into heaven.
If you enter....it's because you belong there.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
cause and effect.

God is cause and effect? God's actions are determined which God cannot alter from?

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
a code of behavior and fair warning.

So you'll be punished or rewarded for your actions. Assuming you do good to others then good will be done to you.
I don't really follow that code. I act from compassion, not because good will be done to me or to avoid bad things. I expect nothing in return for my actions, good or bad.

Here's a story, I think it was from the TV show, Kung Fu... so I'm paraphrasing

There was this monk walking along the beach who came upon a scorpion which was drowning in the water. The monk reached in to pull the scorpion from the water whereupon the scorpion stung the monk which cause the monk to drop the scorpion back into the water. The monk again reach in to pull the scorpion from the water and was again stung. This happen several times. A nearby onlooker saw this and ask the monk why do you continually allow the scorpion to sting you. The monk replied, "It is according to my nature to try and save the scorpion. The scorpion stings me because it is also acting according to it's nature.

It will be done unto you as you did unto others......
with every occasion you meet another....

Then you had better be very sensitive to the needs of others lest you accidentally cause them harm.

You cannot earn your way into heaven.
If you enter....it's because you belong there.

In which case, there's no sense in trying.
 
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