What's purpose to lable this DIR"Evolution Vs. Creationism"

[Shad]

Signs from the Creator - The Expanding Universe

Modern interpretation created after the BB model was developed

Big Bang ┇ Quran and Modern Science ┇

That is not what the BB model is thus the verse is not talking about the BB model at all.

 

[Godobeyer]

Modern interpretation created after the BB model was developed



That is not what the BB model is thus the verse is not talking about the BB model at all.

word by word,it's worked well.
Need to used translation to verify by your self

 

[Shad]

word by word,it's worked well.

Word by word that wasn't shown until after the model

Need to used translation to verify by your self

Nope as the Earth is part of the Universe not separate from it. Also the Earth didn't exist for billions of years after the BB.

 

[Godobeyer]

Word by word that wasn't shown until after the model

What model you talking about ?
Verse exist in Quran in Arabic,go use translators !

Nope as the Earth is part of the Universe not separate from it. Also the Earth didn't exist for billions of years after the BB.

Earth and universe was all together.

 

[Shad]

What model you talking about ?

Watch your own video and figure it out

Verse exist in Quran in Arabic,go use translators !

I have hence why translations prior to the models being developed says nothing about expanding

Earth and universe was all together.

It still is as the Earth is part of the universe not separate from it. Beside the verse uses Earth in a way that is was around right after this split. This does not align with what we have discovered regarding the age of the Earth

 

[Godobeyer]

I have hence why translations prior to the models being developed says nothing about expanding

Really?
Do you check prior translation to find out?

Your reference please ?

 

[Shad]

Really?
Do you check prior translation to find out?

Yes. We have had this discussion before.

Your reference please ?

Pickthall for one.

 

[Kirran]

@Godobeyer you gotta find better sources man, can't be getting all your info from random Youtube videos.

 

[Godobeyer]

@Godobeyer you gotta find better sources man, can't be getting all your info from random Youtube videos.

He and maybe you knew about Big bang and expansion of Universe in Quran, I think not about sources , it's about stubborness.

 

[Kirran]

He and maybe you knew about Big bang and expansion of Universe in Quran, I think not about sources , it's about stubborness.

So it doesn't matter if your source isn't reliable?

Should I get information on Islam from WikiIslam?

 

[Godobeyer]

So it doesn't matter if your source isn't reliable?

Should I get information on Islam from WikiIslam?

Yes It''s does.

But honestly I thought it's was stubborness.!

 

[Kirran]

Yes It''s does.

But honestly I thought it's was stubborness.!

I'm more making a general point, not to do with this particular conversation. You seem to often bring up random youtube videos as sources. I'd advise upgrading a little

 

[gnostic]

So
Enjoy your ignorance and arrogance.

No, I will leave the arrogance and ignorance with you.

Signs from the Creator - The Expanding Universe

Big Bang ┇ Quran and Modern Science ┇

I knew it! I just knew it.

LOL

Almost everytime that I have come across Muslims here who would twist their verses to mean the Big Bang, they will use the some biased YouTube videos without understanding a single thing about Big Bang cosmology.

First of. The YouTube video described the Big Bang as the "explosion"...WRONG!

It wasn't any explosion...just the young universe as a singularity began "explaining". Science explain the expansion of the universe as the same as the expansion of "space".

The "single point" which the video described it as, is the singularity and that the universe in its most primal state. But it wasn't singularity isn't separate from the universe, it is the universe, and it wasn't a single point in the universe, the singularity is the universe, and it was everywhere.

The most common analogy to describe the expansion of the universe is not "explosion", but that of the balloon.

Imagine the universe in its singularity state being the deflated balloon. When you blow air into the balloon, the whole surface of the balloon will expand.

Whether the balloon is in its previous deflated state or it ever-increasing inflating state; the different states they were in don't indicate they were two different balloons. No, it is still the same balloon.

So whether the universe is in primordial state as a singularity, or in its current form, as we see it now, it is the same universe.

And no Muslims (that misuse the Qur'an passages with the BB) seem to understand the physics of an explosion, because they all seemed to confuse the name of cosmology "Big Bang" as an explosion, because they are so small-minded.

The Big Bang described the singularity as being hot and dense, then as the universe expands, the universe is actually cooling down. As the universe expand and cool, the particles began to form from the energies that come with and from the singularity, turning smaller particles into larger particles.

So as time go by the universe actually start

1. from "very, very hot" (at singularity state),
2. to still "very hot" (smaller particles began to form, eg quarks, leptons, ),
3. then to "hot" (grouping together of subatomic particles and forming into larger particles, eg hadrons like protons, neutrons, nuclei, follow by bounding together hadrons into atomic elements, like hydrogen and helium),
4. then to our current state of being warm (when elements began to form into larger objects, eg from hydrogen bounded together by gravity, to form the first generation of stars).

So as time go by, smaller particles become bigger particles.

But with the "explosion", it is the other way around. By using a bomb as an example for the explosion.

Before the explosion, the bomb actually begins with the object being whole (hence singular) and temperature-wise it will start off as being cold. Then when the bomb detonates, the bomb will break apart, becoming hot at flash-point. Then the bomb fragments will break further down into smaller pieces, when it reach maximum temperature of the explosion. Then from maximum temperature it will cool down exponentially.

This scenario of the bomb (or explosion) is the exact opposite of what expanding universe is all about.

The Big Bang go from being hot at the beginning, and time and space expand, the cooling universe allow formation of particles before the formation of the first stars.

The explosion, on the other hand, begins with a cold bomb, whole and complete. When the bomb explode, it will become and then cold, but everything in the explosion precinct will break apart.

The Big Bang is not about breaking apart, but from building upward. Where as a bomb exploding is actually breaking things apart.

So I would put it very bluntly to you, that the authors of the two YouTube videos are just two more very ignorant idiots.

Now I understand all about the passage, the YouTube video is referring to: 21:30.

Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?

To show you what I means, here is the other translations of the same verse:

Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were of one piece, then We parted them, and we made every living thing of water? Will they not then believe?

Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, and We separated them and made from water every living thing? Then will they not believe?

Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were joined together as one united piece, then We parted them? And We have made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?

The problem is, as with most Muslim interpretations, is matter of context: they have the tendencies to replace original context of the verse with modern context. Muslims often confuse the word "heaven" with the "universe".

The "universe" is really a very modern astronomy concept, that no one before the 20th century knew of or understood.

For instance, astronomers before the telescopes thought the Andromeda Galaxy was a star, as part of the Milky Way. And after the telescope was invented, astronomers of that revised this galaxy as a nebula and still part of the Milky Way, during the 17th and 19th centuries.

They didn't realise that the Andromeda Galaxy was a separate galaxy, even bigger and with even more stars than the Milky Way. It wasn't until the early 20th century that they recognise Andromeda Galaxy as a separate galaxy, that they realise there were even more galaxies out there, billions of them. Astronomers simply didn't know just how large the universe is, because back then there telescopes weren't powerful enough.

The problem is that you (and other Muslims) are attempting to twist your passages in your scripture into modern science. That's dishonest circular thinking, without understanding modern science, and clearly not understanding the contexts of their own verses, which they (including yourself) have twisted out of proportions.

The real contexts to the "heavens", is the "sky", not the "universe".

And the sky is not the heaven. The sky is actually just how we see and what we see when we look up from our position, at ground-level.

The image of the sky or heaven, as how every ancient and medieval people would see the heaven as a "dome", or a "ceiling", "roof" or "canopy". That's what they think they see in the sky is only a very tiniest of portion of the universe.

And We have made the heavens as a canopy well guarded: yet do they turn away from the Signs which these things (point to)!

And we have made the sky a roof withheld (from them). Yet they turn away from its portents.

And We made the sky a protected ceiling, but they, from its signs, are turning away.

And We have made the heaven a roof, safe and well guarded. Yet they turn away from its signs (i.e. sun, moon, winds, clouds, etc.).

Note that I have highlighted all references to heavens" in red, both in verse 30 and verse 32. In green, I have the "sky" references in green.

In blue, where it described the heavens or sky as "ceiling" (in Sahih), "roof" (Pickthall & Muhsin Khan) or "canopy" (Yusuf Ali).

Clearly verse 32 is describing the heavens as sky, and I think it is the same with verse 30.

You don't understand the concept of scholarship. You may be able to read Arabic, but if you cannot, then any half-decent scholar would rely more than one source, even if you can read Arabic.

Being able to read Arabic, don't guarantee that you understand the context of a verse that he or she is reading. I am quite sure that each Muslim can have different interpretation in what they read.

But it is not just a matter of you or those YouTube videos trying to understand the verse: no, you are attempting to reinterpret the text and change its meaning. That's an example of dishonesty that some Muslims clearly exhibited.

 

[Godobeyer]

No, I will leave the arrogance and ignorance with you.


I knew it! I just knew it.

LOL

Almost everytime that I have come across Muslims here who would twist their verses to mean the Big Bang, they will use the some biased YouTube videos without understanding a single thing about Big Bang cosmology.

First of. The YouTube video described the Big Bang as the "explosion"...WRONG!

It wasn't any explosion...just the young universe as a singularity began "explaining". Science explain the expansion of the universe as the same as the expansion of "space".

The "single point" which the video described it as, is the singularity and that the universe in its most primal state. But it wasn't singularity isn't separate from the universe, it is the universe, and it wasn't a single point in the universe, the singularity is the universe, and it was everywhere.

The most common analogy to describe the expansion of the universe is not "explosion", but that of the balloon.

Imagine the universe in its singularity state being the deflated balloon. When you blow air into the balloon, the whole surface of the balloon will expand.

Whether the balloon is in its previous deflated state or it ever-increasing inflating state; the different states they were in don't indicate they were two different balloons. No, it is still the same balloon.

So whether the universe is in primordial state as a singularity, or in its current form, as we see it now, it is the same universe.

And no Muslims (that misuse the Qur'an passages with the BB) seem to understand the physics of an explosion, because they all seemed to confuse the name of cosmology "Big Bang" as an explosion, because they are so small-minded.

The Big Bang described the singularity as being hot and dense, then as the universe expands, the universe is actually cooling down. As the universe expand and cool, the particles began to form from the energies that come with and from the singularity, turning smaller particles into larger particles.

So as time go by the universe actually start

1. from "very, very hot" (at singularity state),
2. to still "very hot" (smaller particles began to form, eg quarks, leptons, ),
3. then to "hot" (grouping together of subatomic particles and forming into larger particles, eg hadrons like protons, neutrons, nuclei, follow by bounding together hadrons into atomic elements, like hydrogen and helium),
4. then to our current state of being warm (when elements began to form into larger objects, eg from hydrogen bounded together by gravity, to form the first generation of stars).

So as time go by, smaller particles become bigger particles.

But with the "explosion", it is the other way around. By using a bomb as an example for the explosion.

Before the explosion, the bomb actually begins with the object being whole (hence singular) and temperature-wise it will start off as being cold. Then when the bomb detonates, the bomb will break apart, becoming hot at flash-point. Then the bomb fragments will break further down into smaller pieces, when it reach maximum temperature of the explosion. Then from maximum temperature it will cool down exponentially.

This scenario of the bomb (or explosion) is the exact opposite of what expanding universe is all about.

The Big Bang go from being hot at the beginning, and time and space expand, the cooling universe allow formation of particles before the formation of the first stars.

The explosion, on the other hand, begins with a cold bomb, whole and complete. When the bomb explode, it will become and then cold, but everything in the explosion precinct will break apart.

The Big Bang is not about breaking apart, but from building upward. Where as a bomb exploding is actually breaking things apart.

So I would put it very bluntly to you, that the authors of the two YouTube videos are just two more very ignorant idiots.

Now I understand all about the passage, the YouTube video is referring to: 21:30.



To show you what I means, here is the other translations of the same verse:







The problem is, as with most Muslim interpretations, is matter of context: they have the tendencies to replace original context of the verse with modern context. Muslims often confuse the word "heaven" with the "universe".

The "universe" is really a very modern astronomy concept, that no one before the 20th century knew of or understood.

For instance, astronomers before the telescopes thought the Andromeda Galaxy was a star, as part of the Milky Way. And after the telescope was invented, astronomers of that revised this galaxy as a nebula and still part of the Milky Way, during the 17th and 19th centuries.

They didn't realise that the Andromeda Galaxy was a separate galaxy, even bigger and with even more stars than the Milky Way. It wasn't until the early 20th century that they recognise Andromeda Galaxy as a separate galaxy, that they realise there were even more galaxies out there, billions of them. Astronomers simply didn't know just how large the universe is, because back then there telescopes weren't powerful enough.

The problem is that you (and other Muslims) are attempting to twist your passages in your scripture into modern science. That's dishonest circular thinking, without understanding modern science, and clearly not understanding the contexts of their own verses, which they (including yourself) have twisted out of proportions.

The real contexts to the "heavens", is the "sky", not the "universe".

And the sky is not the heaven. The sky is actually just how we see and what we see when we look up from our position, at ground-level.

The image of the sky or heaven, as how every ancient and medieval people would see the heaven as a "dome", or a "ceiling", "roof" or "canopy". That's what they think they see in the sky is only a very tiniest of portion of the universe.









Note that I have highlighted all references to heavens" in red, both in verse 30 and verse 32. In green, I have the "sky" references in green.

In blue, where it described the heavens or sky as "ceiling" (in Sahih), "roof" (Pickthall & Muhsin Khan) or "canopy" (Yusuf Ali).

Clearly verse 32 is describing the heavens as sky, and I think it is the same with verse 30.

You don't understand the concept of scholarship. You may be able to read Arabic, but if you cannot, then any half-decent scholar would rely more than one source, even if you can read Arabic.

Being able to read Arabic, don't guarantee that you understand the context of a verse that he or she is reading. I am quite sure that each Muslim can have different interpretation in what they read.

But it is not just a matter of you or those YouTube videos trying to understand the verse: no, you are attempting to reinterpret the text and change its meaning. That's an example of dishonesty that some Muslims clearly exhibited.

There is no problem.

Heavens or skies or sky or universe all refer to space outside the eartth. that's it.

 

[gnostic]

Heavens or skies or sky or universe all refer to space outside the eartth. that's it.

Again, there are no indications that any one before the 20th century had any clue as to the size or age of the universe.

You using the Qur'an and some silly and biased YouTube videos only showed your (and that of other Muslims) desperation to feel relevant in the modern science world.

Past Muslims between the 9th and 12th centuries did real science and real mathematics, but today's Muslims are pathetically ignorance because of their reliance on the Qur'an.

 

[Godobeyer]

Again, there are no indications that any one before the 20th century had any clue as to the size or age of the universe.

Quran is not scientifc book.

God described what they were saw by their own eyes (by simple way), they saw sky/heaven, God told them/us that He expanding it.

Past Muslims between the 9th and 12th centuries did real science and real mathematics, but today's Muslims are pathetically ignorance because of their reliance on the Qur'an.

This is other issue. it's because occupations and interventions and monoply the science by deveplopped countries,and because the Muslims don't practice their religion, the first word/verse decent by God was " READ".

 

[Shad]

Quran is not scientifc book.

God described what they were saw by their own eyes (by simple way), they saw sky/heaven, God told them/us that He expanding it.

Yet such a view didn't come to light until after the model was public. Your verse is merely an echo of the cosmic egg idea.

This is other issue. it's because occupations and interventions and monoply the science by deveplopped countries,and because the Muslims don't practice their religion, the first word/verse decent by God was " READ".

The same argument could be made against early Muslims since the early Muslim Empire did these exact things. Occupied areas, intervened in foreign affairs of others thus created a monopoly on science.

 

[Godobeyer]

It's like you describe a mobile phone to Romans ...etc it's just not e

Yet such a view didn't come to light until after the model was public. Your verse is merely an echo of the cosmic egg idea.



The same argument could be made against early Muslims since the early Muslim Empire did these exact things. Occupied areas, intervened in foreign affairs of others thus created a monopoly on science.

Your claim far from the truth, the Muslims never monopoly the science.

Its known that non-muslims taught Muslims sciences like jebra, Arabic numbers, algorithm, medical.... Etc

 

[gnostic]

Quran is not scientific book.

Which I am very well aware of.

God described what they were saw by their own eyes (by simple way), they saw sky/heaven, God told them/us that He expanding it.

And that's the thing, the Qur'an provide no insightful knowledge to nature...and yet you say god knows science.

And you are contradicting your 1st paragraph that the Qur'an is not a "science book".

Furthermore there are no evidences that your god ever existed, so God didn't describe anything or write anything. All we have are only hearsay from Muhammad, not from your god.

That you believe that the "words of God" are on indication of your faith in a book. The Qur'an is man-made book filled with myths, primitive superstitions and ignorance.

The belief in God, Satan, angels and jinns are evidences that superstitions are muddled in this book that Muslims worshipped.

There are no science involved, when it claim that King Solomon can control the winds. It is only a myth, not science, when the Qur'an claimed that Solomon can understand the language of ants, even to the point that he can converse with the ants. More myths than science, when it say that Solomon have armies of birds and jinns to fight his enemies.

The Qur'an contained fanciful tales, and nothing else.

 

[Godobeyer]

Which I am very well aware of.

And that's the thing, the Qur'an provide no insightful knowledge to nature...and yet you say god knows science.

And you are contradicting your 1st paragraph that the Qur'an is not a "science book".

Furthermore there are no evidences that your god ever existed, so God didn't describe anything or write anything. All we have are only hearsay from Muhammad, not from your god.

That you believe that the "words of God" are on indication of your faith in a book. The Qur'an is man-made book filled with myths, primitive superstitions and ignorance.

The belief in God, Satan, angels and jinns are evidences that superstitions are muddled in this book that Muslims worshipped.

There are no science involved, when it claim that King Solomon can control the winds. It is only a myth, not science, when the Qur'an claimed that Solomon can understand the language of ants, even to the point that he can converse with the ants. More myths than science, when it say that Solomon have armies of birds and jinns to fight his enemies.

The Qur'an contained fanciful tales, and nothing else.

EDITED TO ADD.

That's called belief.

Satan in Islam view is bad jinny.

We do believe that everything created/formed by creator. (there is nothing created it self).

Our body capacity is limited, there is animals beat our instincts/ power (distance vision "falcon" ,smell "dog"...etc). we beat them by mind, so Yes there is much things can't detect/done by human science, so we Muslims believei n unseen world.

Plus on general (believers on Creator) when we believe that our bodies were creator, when we looked to mirror we saw a body formed/created/designed, so you deny facts of seen world, how about unseen world !