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What's wrong with "cherry picking?"

Deidre

Well-Known Member
I've been exploring Islam as a potential spiritual path, but like the Bible, there are things within the religion that I will not accept. I don't believe that God for example (at least my idea of him/it) would dictate for men to have dominion over women, like is characterized in the Qur'an. Unlike Christianity, where I struggle to believe the Gospels which is vital to calling one's self a Christian, I don't have issues with the core message of Islam, but take issue with how women are viewed.

I will never believe that God is punishing women for what happened in Genesis and I don't believe that men should be striking women who "don't obey" as can be found in the Qur'an. It's not taken out of context, it states that as plain as day.

So, why can't we cherry pick what makes logical and spiritual sense? God gave us a brain to think for ourselves not to become drones obedient to verses that sound like they were designed by men. But sadly, there are verses such as male circumcision that I disagree with too. Why is there always abuse of some sort as part of the Abrahamic faiths?

There is so much beauty in Islam but I can't rationalize some of these verses.

What are your thoughts?
 

lovemuffin

τὸν ἄρτον τοῦ ἔρωτος
Another word for "cherry picking" is hermaneutics. In other words, every tradition interprets its own texts, and ends up emphasizing some things over others, or understanding some ancient text differently than its authors likely did. I think this is more or less inevitable, and its reasonable to find a way of thinking about these things that allows for it. Certainly within Christianity this has always been very common, from (for example) Origen or Gregory of Nyssa interpreting the Song of Songs, to Augustine talking about allegorical interpretations of parts of Genesis, to the Reformation and its understanding of "justification". I don't know as much about Islam, but I know there are divergent understandings between Shia and Sunni. I'd expect it's the same sort of process.

Where "interpretation" becomes "cherry picking" is perhaps just when people pretend as though parts of their tradition they don't like don't actually exist. I think the difficulty of interpretation and the wide divergence in understanding even within any given tradition should at least cause people to be more humble about the status of their beliefs. It should cause people to re-evaluate whether "belief" is the fundamentally important category for religious practice.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
So, why can't we cherry pick what makes logical and spiritual sense?

We can and IMO we must. We also must reinterpret and take responsibility for our own understandings of religious teachings. That is what religion proper is, far as I am concerned.

But that has a drawback, in that it causes issues of representation. Two people drawing inspiration from the same source can and will reach very different understandings, and at some point it will be difficult to even see a reason to say that they share belief in the same religion. That has at least arguably happened to Christianisty and even to specific denominations of it, such as Catholicism.


God gave us a brain to think for ourselves not to become drones obedient to verses that sound like they were designed by men. But sadly, there are verses such as male circumcision that I disagree with too. Why is there always abuse of some sort as part of the Abrahamic faiths?

Mostly due to over-reliance on scripture, it seems to me. Scripture is unable to learn from social circunstances or from changes in the actual choices and possibilities of people. Those have indeed changed, and very significantly at that, since the times when the Bible and the Quran were written.

There is considerable resistance among many Christians and particularly Muslims against attempting to "know better" than the letter of the scripture. I must say that I don't fully understand why. It is not like we have reason to be ashamed of attempting to use our moral discernment, or of knowing of the actual situations we go through.

That is one of the things I appreciate on the concept of Dharma. It is (for the most part) more appreciative of that very legitimate need.
 

Thana

Lady
Well I find cherry picking throws into question one's entire religion, Say if one thing is wrong then why not all of it? If one thing is corrupted then why not all the things?

As to the verse about being able to hit women, I've heard a Muslim defend it by saying it means just a light tap (As if that makes it any better by I digress) so I suppose it depends on how you interpret and rationalize things. If you're okay with cherry picking then what does it matter what others think?
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I've been exploring Islam as a potential spiritual path, but like the Bible, there are things within the religion that I will not accept. I don't believe that God for example (at least my idea of him/it) would dictate for men to have dominion over women, like is characterized in the Qur'an. Unlike Christianity, where I struggle to believe the Gospels which is vital to calling one's self a Christian, I don't have issues with the core message of Islam, but take issue with how women are viewed.

I will never believe that God is punishing women for what happened in Genesis and I don't believe that men should be striking women who "don't obey" as can be found in the Qur'an. It's not taken out of context, it states that as plain as day.

So, why can't we cherry pick what makes logical and spiritual sense? God gave us a brain to think for ourselves not to become drones obedient to verses that sound like they were designed by men. But sadly, there are verses such as male circumcision that I disagree with too. Why is there always abuse of some sort as part of the Abrahamic faiths?

There is so much beauty in Islam but I can't rationalize some of these verses.

What are your thoughts?
I say life is like a Chinese restaurant menu....cherry pick away, & design your own religion or philosophy. You'll be happier & no less correct than anyone else. If you name it, I submit "Diedretarianism".
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Well I find cherry picking throws into question one's entire religion, Say if one thing is wrong then why not all of it? If one thing is corrupted then why not all the things?

Indeed, that is a question that must be asked if the religion is to be any good.

It falls upon the adherent to lend significance to the religion, not the other way around.
 

gsa

Well-Known Member
Do I think that there is anything wrong with cherry picking? No. It just happens to be the case that most Abrahamic traditions disavow it.

I think the best thing to do is ask yourself what the core message of the Quran is, as you understand it, and how you would deal with the parts of the Quran that seem to prohibit cherry picking. You should also ask yourself how you would navigate within a religious tradition that overwhelmingly affirms the inerrancy and infallibility of the Quran.

To be sure, the idea of scriptural infallibility is not uncontested among Muslims, and you can read the link see why, but the number who contest it is very small, particularly in relation to the number of Jews and Christians who reject scriptural infallibility. Most self-described moderate, liberal and progressive Muslims do not reject Quranic infallibility, only Quranic literalism. By comparison, at least most liberal and progressive Christians and Jews reject both literalism and infallibility.

The problem is that when you become a member of the Abrahamic traditions, you are joining communities that are largely defined by reference to texts believed to be divinely inspired and infallible. In the case of Islam, overwhelmingly so. Are you comfortable with being someone that many Muslims will regard as heretical in her beliefs? That's really the question. Some people do it, honestly it seems to me that most of them come from within the tradition (i.e., by virtue the accident of birth and geography) rather than through the conversion process.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
In my honest opinion, and from the Church and priest perspective in Christianity, a lot of the verses what you described are customs of that culture. For example, in the Bible gospels, Jesus does not differentiate between gentiles, Jews, male, female, and so forth in regards to salvation.

However, in the Catholic Church (which I believe is the closest form of Christianity--without roman influence), one cannot be saved without the Church. In protestant beliefs, one cannot be saved unless they accept Jesus as Lord and Savior. In both beliefs, they are depending on scripture and tradition to validate their views rather than letting God speak to the person who may or may not say right a way "I want to be part of the Church" or "I want to be saved."

That's today's culture. Back then, Abraham gave up his own son as a example of devotion to God. To me, that is saying I love God more than my son.... for me, its I Iove my son (my life) more than I love God. I would risk my life under God's anger in order to save my son.

In order words, I'm rambling, it is from culture to culture. God doesn't say, okay "woman you supposed to do this" and "man you're supposed to do that" Jesus never separated man and woman and dictated one over the other in regards to theri belief in him--which is the core of the faith.

--
As for the Quran, I am making a educated guess that it is also culture based. Also, I don't believe it is a rule from God Himself for the man to hit their wifes. In America, that's against the law. I don't see Allah (rather than man) telling one person to beat another person. Muhammad maybe He was talking about how God wanted us to treat others according to the culture He is from. To try and apply His and Jesus' views to our culture is almost impossible especially in america where some things in both the Bible and Quran are against the law.

I'm sure the Quran has similar views of "salvation" that isn't divided by gender and status. I could be wrong, in that regard.

Hope that kinda helps?




I've been exploring Islam as a potential spiritual path, but like the Bible, there are things within the religion that I will not accept. I don't believe that God for example (at least my idea of him/it) would dictate for men to have dominion over women, like is characterized in the Qur'an. Unlike Christianity, where I struggle to believe the Gospels which is vital to calling one's self a Christian, I don't have issues with the core message of Islam, but take issue with how women are viewed.

I will never believe that God is punishing women for what happened in Genesis and I don't believe that men should be striking women who "don't obey" as can be found in the Qur'an. It's not taken out of context, it states that as plain as day.

So, why can't we cherry pick what makes logical and spiritual sense? God gave us a brain to think for ourselves not to become drones obedient to verses that sound like they were designed by men. But sadly, there are verses such as male circumcision that I disagree with too. Why is there always abuse of some sort as part of the Abrahamic faiths?

There is so much beauty in Islam but I can't rationalize some of these verses.

What are your thoughts?
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
I've been exploring Islam as a potential spiritual path, but like the Bible, there are things within the religion that I will not accept. I don't believe that God for example (at least my idea of him/it) would dictate for men to have dominion over women, like is characterized in the Qur'an. Unlike Christianity, where I struggle to believe the Gospels which is vital to calling one's self a Christian, I don't have issues with the core message of Islam, but take issue with how women are viewed.

I will never believe that God is punishing women for what happened in Genesis and I don't believe that men should be striking women who "don't obey" as can be found in the Qur'an. It's not taken out of context, it states that as plain as day.

So, why can't we cherry pick what makes logical and spiritual sense? God gave us a brain to think for ourselves not to become drones obedient to verses that sound like they were designed by men. But sadly, there are verses such as male circumcision that I disagree with too. Why is there always abuse of some sort as part of the Abrahamic faiths?

There is so much beauty in Islam but I can't rationalize some of these verses.

What are your thoughts?

The fact that a passage is ( not ) according to your liking has no bearing on whether it corresponds to reality.
 

Adramelek

Setian
Premium Member
What is religion and philosophy but a way to better understand our individual Self, the universe, and our place in it. If one desires or has a need for religion I think it should be personalized. Whether one wants to borrow from other religions that might speak to them in a certain way, be it aspects of Islam or Christianity or Hinduism or whatever, and apply those spiritual teachings to their own life philosophy. I am an advocate of Self-Created belief systems. :D

Xeper.
/Adramelek\
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
One small problem for the acknowledged cherry-picker is that it gives one very little wiggle room when other folks select the cherries that are not to your liking. I'm more inclined to avoid scriptures altogether.
 
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Deidre

Well-Known Member
Another word for "cherry picking" is hermaneutics. In other words, every tradition interprets its own texts, and ends up emphasizing some things over others, or understanding some ancient text differently than its authors likely did. I think this is more or less inevitable, and its reasonable to find a way of thinking about these things that allows for it. Certainly within Christianity this has always been very common, from (for example) Origen or Gregory of Nyssa interpreting the Song of Songs, to Augustine talking about allegorical interpretations of parts of Genesis, to the Reformation and its understanding of "justification". I don't know as much about Islam, but I know there are divergent understandings between Shia and Sunni. I'd expect it's the same sort of process.

Where "interpretation" becomes "cherry picking" is perhaps just when people pretend as though parts of their tradition they don't like don't actually exist. I think the difficulty of interpretation and the wide divergence in understanding even within any given tradition should at least cause people to be more humble about the status of their beliefs. It should cause people to re-evaluate whether "belief" is the fundamentally important category for religious practice.

Thank you for this, so very helpful and insightful. I'm glad I'm not alone in my thinking. I don't wish to devalue a religion by cherry picking, but it stands to reason, that we should use our brains to evaluate what it is we are reading. In my eyes, if people are getting hurt because of religious doctrine, I question how that could come from a god. And if so, why would I wish to follow said god?

But, there is immense beauty in Islam that comes through during my prayer time. I just prayed the Dhuhr prayer, and I just love the core message of Islam. But, some of these verses, I just can't and won't accept. Thank you for your comment today.

I say life is like a Chinese restaurant menu....cherry pick away, & design your own religion or philosophy. You'll be happier & no less correct than anyone else. If you name it, I submit "Diedretarianism".

lol I like it! ^_^
In all seriousness, I think a lot of this boils down too, to common sense, and what is best for humanity. Which is why atheism seemed like a natural path for a while, for me...as all one has to rely on is one's own critical thinking. I wish to believe that in order to embrace Islam or any other faith, I don't need to throw logic and critical thinking out the window.

Well I find cherry picking throws into question one's entire religion, Say if one thing is wrong then why not all of it? If one thing is corrupted then why not all the things?
I know, great point-and honestly...this is why I left Christianity. :/

As to the verse about being able to hit women, I've heard a Muslim defend it by saying it means just a light tap (As if that makes it any better by I digress) so I suppose it depends on how you interpret and rationalize things. If you're okay with cherry picking then what does it matter what others think?

Yes, I imagine there could be ways to interpret it...but it states 'struck,' so...

No man will strike me. Tap me. Chastise me. Lay a hand on me to 'correct' me.

We can and IMO we must. We also must reinterpret and take responsibility for our own understandings of religious teachings. That is what religion proper is, far as I am concerned.

But that has a drawback, in that it causes issues of representation. Two people drawing inspiration from the same source can and will reach very different understandings, and at some point it will be difficult to even see a reason to say that they share belief in the same religion. That has at least arguably happened to Christianisty and even to specific denominations of it, such as Catholicism.




Mostly due to over-reliance on scripture, it seems to me. Scripture is unable to learn from social circunstances or from changes in the actual choices and possibilities of people. Those have indeed changed, and very significantly at that, since the times when the Bible and the Quran were written.

There is considerable resistance among many Christians and particularly Muslims against attempting to "know better" than the letter of the scripture. I must say that I don't fully understand why. It is not like we have reason to be ashamed of attempting to use our moral discernment, or of knowing of the actual situations we go through.

That is one of the things I appreciate on the concept of Dharma. It is (for the most part) more appreciative of that very legitimate need.

So insightful, your post here. I happen to think that when religion falls into the hands of certain people/groups...it becomes a tool to control the masses. We have seen this throughout the centuries, and we see it now with ISIS. That extremist group is using Islam to abuse and coerce people as they wish. AS THEY WISH.

I don't understand why one can't become a pious Muslim, and not be able to analyze the Qur'an as he/she sees fit.
 

Deidre

Well-Known Member
The fact that a passage is ( not ) according to your liking has no bearing on whether it corresponds to reality.

not to my liking so much, as ...is this best for humanity? husbands striking their wives for any reason...is not best for humanity. and that corresponds directly to reality.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I've been exploring Islam as a potential spiritual path, but like the Bible, there are things within the religion that I will not accept. I don't believe that God for example (at least my idea of him/it) would dictate for men to have dominion over women, like is characterized in the Qur'an. Unlike Christianity, where I struggle to believe the Gospels which is vital to calling one's self a Christian, I don't have issues with the core message of Islam, but take issue with how women are viewed.

I will never believe that God is punishing women for what happened in Genesis and I don't believe that men should be striking women who "don't obey" as can be found in the Qur'an. It's not taken out of context, it states that as plain as day.

So, why can't we cherry pick what makes logical and spiritual sense? God gave us a brain to think for ourselves not to become drones obedient to verses that sound like they were designed by men. But sadly, there are verses such as male circumcision that I disagree with too. Why is there always abuse of some sort as part of the Abrahamic faiths?

There is so much beauty in Islam but I can't rationalize some of these verses.

What are your thoughts?
If you're picking and choosing parts of the religion that speak to you and leaving out the ones that don't, fair enough - just realize that if you tell people "I'm a Muslim" without the nuances of your approach, you'll be giving a false impression.

My other thought - though it should apply to all believers, not just "cherry-pickers": what are your criteria for what to accept and what to reject? Does what you reject undermine the support for what you accept? Does what you accept imply you should also accept things you reject?

For Islam, for instance, do you actually believe that the Qur'an is the word of God dictated to Muhammad by angels? If so, why reject the passages of "God's word" that make you uncomfortable? If not, what makes the passages you accept special?
 

Deidre

Well-Known Member
What is religion and philosophy but a way to better understand our individual Self, the universe, and our place in it. If one desires or has a need for religion I think it should be personalized. Whether one wants to borrow from other religions that might speak to them in a certain way, be it aspects of Islam or Christianity or Hinduism or whatever, and apply those spiritual teachings to their own life philosophy. I am an advocate of Self-Created belief systems. :D

Xeper.
/Adramelek\

haha I know you are :D
I like this post very much.

Again, I don't wish to take Islam or any other religion and twist it to suit me (although, that seems like I'm saying that)...what I am saying is...why must I accept certain verses in order to follow the core truths within Islam?

I suppose we could say...well, all of the verses add up to the core truths. But, to me, if a prescribed instruction hurts people...I can't imagine that can be an edict from a god.

I'm just being honest.
 
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