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What's wrong with "cherry picking?"

Thana

Lady
I know, great point-and honestly...this is why I left Christianity. :/

Look I'm gonna be honest, I don't think you're going to stick with Islam either. Cherry picking with Abrahamic faiths just won't work, Eventually it all unravels and you're left with only two options. Accept all of it or none of it. There really isn't a middle ground, atleast none that I've found.

What I would suggest is researching these things you disagree with, I've found a lot of things I didn't agree with in the bible but when I actually did the research the answers were suprisingly reasonable.

Best of luck :)
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
not to my liking so much, as ...is this best for humanity? husbands striking their wives for any reason...is not best for humanity. and that corresponds directly to reality.
I'd tend to agree... but once someone has argued that husbands should do this, I'd consider his judgment questionable generally, and not trust his judgement on other matters.
 

Deidre

Well-Known Member
Look I'm gonna be honest, I don't think you're going to stick with Islam. Cherry picking with Abrahamic faiths just won't work, Eventually it all unravels and you're left with only two options. Accept all of it or none of it. There really isn't a middle ground, atleast none that I've found.

What I would suggest is researching these things you disagree with, I've found a lot of things I didn't agree with in the bible but when I actually did the research the answers were suprisingly reasonable.

Best of luck :)

I will have to give this some thought, for sure. And I am, but I'm starting to analyze things more now, actual verses...and I don't like how they make me feel. I don't like their implications, I guess.

I've always wondered how adults go through conversions of any type...to any religion. I grew up in a Christian home, and so the doctrine was just accepted. I never questioned until I became an adult. Which is why when people would point out the flaws in Christianity, I didn't see them right away.

I'm still going to pray and continue the exploring process. But, I know I won't accept certain verses. It just goes against my own values, tbh. Do I know better than God? No. But, I don't believe some of ancient Scriptures came from God. (which is the only way to view it when you strip it down)
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I don't understand why one can't become a pious Muslim, and not be able to analyze the Qur'an as he/she sees fit.

I'm certain that one can and many do.

I assume they usually end up facing a lot of arguments about whether their understandings are proper, but maybe I am extrapolating too much from the circles I frequent.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
not to my liking so much, as ...is this best for humanity? husbands striking their wives for any reason...is not best for humanity. and that corresponds directly to reality.

That's merely an opinion of yours. God can, and according to the text he does, have a different view. Whether you like it has no bearing on whether it is true. You can't use this criterion alone to judge the scripture.
 

Deidre

Well-Known Member
I'm certain that one can and many do.

I assume they usually end up facing a lot of arguments about whether their understandings are proper, but maybe I am extrapolating too much from the circles I frequent.


My Muslim friends who came from Syria and live in the states, dare I say…they cherry pick. They are devout in prayer, fasting, and following all of the observances, but there are things they won’t accept. They don’t agree with quite a few verses, but they tend to find interpretations that coincide with their own thinking. Other Muslims who resonate with them. This reminds me very much of my Christian days, because no two Christians interpret Scripture quite the same way, it seems. lol
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
That's merely an opinion of yours. God can, and according to the text he does, have a different view. Whether you like it has no bearing on whether it is true. You can't use this criterion alone to judge the scripture.

Uh, why not?

I would say that, quite on the contrary, one must judge whether the text of any scripture is acceptable.
 

Deidre

Well-Known Member
That's merely an opinion of yours. God can, and according to the text he does, have a different view. Whether you like it has no bearing on whether it is true. You can't use this criterion alone to judge the scripture.

If Scripture directs people to hurt one another...it's wrong. Sounds like a man made trait, for why would a god have a need to hurt his own creation?
 

lovemuffin

τὸν ἄρτον τοῦ ἔρωτος
If you're okay with cherry picking then what does it matter what others think?

This is probably a false dichotomy unless you define cherry picking to mean ignoring what others think. It's possible to be very engaged with what others think but still to arrive at a slightly different perspective. Part of the problem is this ambiguity about the phrase. As a Christian, I think it would be a dubious enterprise (both spiritually and intellectually) to attempt to interpret and understand the New Testament in isolation from the ~2k years of tradition surrounding its interpretation, or without engaging at all with expert opinions on things like textual criticism, ancient history, languages, and etc. This isn't particularly surprising though. The analogous statement would be true in almost any field, from an intellectual standpoint.

if one thing is wrong then why not all of it? If one thing is corrupted then why not all the things?

I think the question presupposes a criterion for establishing the value of religious tradition which is untenable, and one which you wouldn't apply in other areas. We don't reject entire political traditions out of disagreement for some subset of ideas, or reject a mathematical approach to physics because old theories need correction.

I think fundamentally the problem with this attitude is it neglects that religion is a human enterprise, and as such is bounded by human limitations. That's why you note that it's "a matter of interpretation". That matter is inherent to the process. Even accepting some text to be a revelation from God, it still finds its way to us having been sifted through the beliefs, interpretations, understandings, and worldviews of the people who received it. There's a principle from scholastic theology, I think from Thomas Aquinas: "whatever is received is received according to the modality of the receiver". Which is just a technical way of saying that our understanding is always conditioned by our humanness. This idea is why, both in Catholicism and in Eastern Orthodoxy you may hear it said that it is the authors, and not the text in itself, which are inspired by God.

If we understand a religion to be defined by a set of dogmas, then the process of interpretation has to grind to a halt somewhere, at which point the "religion" came to exist. In this case, cherry picking is always "heresy". This would be historically problematic though, because in fact at no point has any major religion just suddenly appeared with an exact and fixed set of beliefs. The decision of which set defines the religion is entirely arbitrary, when in fact, the authors of the canonical texts themselves were engaged in the very process of interpretation that would be excluded. Paul's reinterpretation of Old Testament prophecy and the purpose of the Law, in light of his belief in the death and resurrection of Christ, is a perfect example of that.

If we understand a religion to be defined more by the common life of some group of people, not rigidly and dogmatically defined, then this issue goes away. It also turns out that this other kind of definition makes much more sense of the history of religions than the former.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
If Scripture directs people to hurt one another...it's wrong. Sounds like a man made trait, for why would a god have a need to hurt his own creation?
So you reject the idea that diseases, predators, and natural disasters were created by God?
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Uh, why not?

I would say that, quite on the contrary, one must judge whether the text of any scripture is acceptable.

I agree that one must judge whether the text of any scripture is acceptable. What I disagree with is the usage of your 'liking' as a criterion ( and even more if it is the only one ) to make such a judgement.
 

Deidre

Well-Known Member
So you reject the idea that diseases, predators, and natural disasters were created by God?


I’ve had the thought most of my life, that should a god exist, he didn’t/doesn’t create those things, but allows them.

Just like he allows a perversion of truth to be passed off as real truth.
 

Deidre

Well-Known Member
I agree that one must judge whether the text of any scripture is acceptable. What I disagree with is the usage of your 'liking' as a criterion ( and even more if it is the only one ) to make such a judgement.

again, not to my liking. lol
but to what is best for humanity. violence begets violence and that's not best for humanity. as we can see historically, and even currently in some parts of the world.
 

Sees

Dragonslayer
The cherry picking issue definitely boils down to exclusivity. No question it will always happen, just degree of understanding and acceptance. It would be absurd in some traditions to demand no cherry picking. In cultural pagan traditions the family, clan, etc. often have their own unique views, beliefs, practices characteristic to them. A family recipe :)

For traditions with exclusivism being foundational - ideas of one God, one holy book, one messiah, one last prophet, one salvation path, etc. will inevitably have One Set of Interpretations thrown in. It's a piece of the puzzle. One truth, one way to see it. Anomalies are heretical and disapproved. It's a big part of the reason for gender and sex issues when you look through the exclusivism lens. One right sex (male)/and one right way to have sex.

I think you can ignore the ones who will criticize you or grab some bits you like/love/value and just keep cruising for greener pastures.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
If Scripture directs people to hurt one another...it's wrong. Sounds like a man made trait, for why would a god have a need to hurt his own creation?

There are many possible answers to that question, but...
I think the biggest problem is: You are trying to find a religion that fits your preconceived god.
So, you would never accept any of those answers.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I agree that one must judge whether the text of any scripture is acceptable. What I disagree with is the usage of your 'liking' as a criterion ( and even more if it is the only one ) to make such a judgement.

What better criteria are you aware of?
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
again, not to my liking. lol
but to what is best for humanity. violence begets violence and that's not best for humanity. as we can see historically, and even currently in some parts of the world.

You are judging what is best for humanity according to your liking because you are using your own parameters to determine what is best for humanity in the first place. God, according to the Quran, has a different view. You can't say that god doesn't have such a view just because it doesn't match yours.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
again, not to my liking. lol
but to what is best for humanity. violence begets violence and that's not best for humanity. as we can see historically, and even currently in some parts of the world.
Why would a god be concerned with what's best for humanity?
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
You are judging what is best for humanity according to your liking because you are using your own parameters to determine what is best for humanity in the first place. God, according to the Quran, has a different view. You can't say that god doesn't have such a view just because it doesn't match yours.

Again, why not? Isn't that just a tad too arbitrary?

It would be more reasonable to assume that scripture that isn't intuitively sound must be wrong.
 

gsa

Well-Known Member
I'd tend to agree... but once someone has argued that husbands should do this, I'd consider his judgment questionable generally, and not trust his judgement on other matters.

I agree. There's nothing about Muhammad that would suggest particularly good judgment or high character to me. Even with Jesus, the only things that he said that appear sympathetic were out of character with the time and place and suggest interpolations as opposed to actual teachings (I'm skeptical that you can even know what the content of his teachings was), while the things that are agreed upon suggest that he was about as zealous as any other religious insurrectionist.

And Paul is a complete *******. His conversion experience seemed to make him more tolerant of gentiles, but that's about the only good thing that can be said.
 
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