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What's wrong with "cherry picking?"

Gharib

I want Khilafah back
I've been exploring Islam as a potential spiritual path, but like the Bible, there are things within the religion that I will not accept. I don't believe that God for example (at least my idea of him/it) would dictate for men to have dominion over women, like is characterized in the Qur'an. Unlike Christianity, where I struggle to believe the Gospels which is vital to calling one's self a Christian, I don't have issues with the core message of Islam, but take issue with how women are viewed.

I will never believe that God is punishing women for what happened in Genesis and I don't believe that men should be striking women who "don't obey" as can be found in the Qur'an. It's not taken out of context, it states that as plain as day.

So, why can't we cherry pick what makes logical and spiritual sense? God gave us a brain to think for ourselves not to become drones obedient to verses that sound like they were designed by men. But sadly, there are verses such as male circumcision that I disagree with too. Why is there always abuse of some sort as part of the Abrahamic faiths?

There is so much beauty in Islam but I can't rationalize some of these verses.

What are your thoughts?

You seem to not know of those mentioned examples/verses from a proper Islamic perspective nor of the science of Fiqh which deals in deriving rulings and explaining matters.

The dominion that men have over women is no different to the dominion a mother has over her children. As for 'hitting women' this too must be understood from a Fiqh perspective so as far as your view goes, it is wrong. Lay Muslims like myself are not allowed to read a verse and interpret it how they see it or understand it. The Qur'an generally gives a command, which is then either expanded by other verses or hadith of the Prophet. The Scholars of Fiqh then give a ruling based on these evidences.
 

Kirran

Premium Member
The dominion that men have over women is no different to the dominion a mother has over her children.

But a mother is older than her children and has a duty of care towards them etc, partly as they are generally less capable of looking after themselves than she is.

A woman is no less capable than a man, and does not owe her birth to a man (with the exception of one man, of course).

As for 'hitting women' this too must be understood from a Fiqh perspective so as far as your view goes, it is wrong. Lay Muslims like myself are not allowed to read a verse and interpret it how they see it or understand it. The Qur'an generally gives a command, which is then either expanded by other verses or hadith of the Prophet. The Scholars of Fiqh then give a ruling based on these evidences.

For what reason did God have the Prophet write the Qur'an in this way, rather than in a way which was comprehensible to lay people? Was it because it wouldn't have been possible to include as much?
 

Gharib

I want Khilafah back
For what reason did God have the Prophet write the Qur'an in this way, rather than in a way which was comprehensible to lay people? Was it because it wouldn't have been possible to include as much?

The Qur'an is as such in order to guide people, it is the base of Islam and then the Prophet was the one living it in it's entirety(he was a walking Qur'an) to show people how it is meant to be understood and followed . It's like how people used to navigate with stars. You have to find your way around the earth, but you have the stars in the sky as a reference. And obviously those who studied star navigation would have maps and expertise in what was the best way to go about, the same as how Scholars are viewed in Islam. They have the expertise to connect the saying/actions of our Prophet to the Qur'an.
 

Kirran

Premium Member
The Qur'an is as such in order to guide people, it is the base of Islam and then the Prophet was the one living it in it's entirety(he was a walking Qur'an) to show people how it is meant to be understood and followed . It's like how people used to navigate with stars. You have to find your way around the earth, but you have the stars in the sky as a reference. And obviously those who studied star navigation would have maps and expertise in what was the best way to go about, the same as how Scholars are viewed in Islam. They have the expertise to connect the saying/actions of our Prophet to the Qur'an.

Do you believe that a literate individual in the time of the Prophet would have been able to pick up a Qur'an, read it, and understand its message correctly?

If not, would it not have been possible for it to be so?
 

Smart_Guy

...
Premium Member
Btw, beating wife and hurting her, and beating the face no matter what, is forbidden in Islam. People always neglect the context of the verse and other governing rules in Islam. Also, it only applies to the wife that makes a sin, and after the first two steps that the same verse tells, which are advising then ignoring. Advising is self explanatory and ignoring is naturally tough enough on women. Oh, and ignoring is something allowed to be done at home only. In public and with other people the husband should never ever ignore his wife no matter what.

Beating face is actually a generally forbidden act in Islam and specifically, in this context, for wives.

I repeat, only sinful women are the ones that the tickle-like beating the verse suggests applies on. Simply beating the wife is not allowed in Islam. I think I did mention that in *audi *rabia beating the wife is a crime. Yes, in *audi *rabia, the most radial Muslim country.

But I admit, what some Muslims do of violent beating is something disgusting, whither based on wrong understanding of the verse, or being sinful. But then again, domestic violence against wives is world wide.
 

Kirran

Premium Member
Btw, beating wife and hurting her, and beating the face no matter what, is forbidden in Islam. People always neglect the context of the verse and other governing rules in Islam. Also, it only applies to the wife that makes a sin, and after the first two steps that the same verse tells, which are advising then ignoring. Advising is self explanatory and ignoring is naturally tough enough on women. Oh, and ignoring is something allowed to be done at home only. In public and with other people the husband should never ever ignore his wife no matter what.

Beating face is actually a generally forbidden act in Islam and specifically, in this context, for wives.

I repeat, only sinful women are the ones that the tickle-like beating the verse suggests applies on. Simply beating the wife is not allowed in Islam. I think I did mention that in *audi *rabia beating the wife is a crime. Yes, in *audi *rabia, the most radial Muslim country.

But I admit, what some Muslims do of violent beating is something disgusting, whither based on wrong understanding of the verse, or being sinful. But then again, domestic violence against wives is world wide.

Can a woman perform the same punishments on her husband? If not, how come?
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
Can a woman perform the same punishments on her husband? If not, how come?

That is similar to the question of can women become bishops?

Very controversial .. secular society maintains that there is no difference between men & women .. this is simply not true .. they are not "equal" in every respect!

That does not mean that they are inferior .. just different :)
 

Smart_Guy

...
Premium Member
Can a woman perform the same punishments on her husband? If not, how come?

That's a good question and it is quiet understandable.

No she can't. Dunno why, but it is one of the duty specific matters like that the husband has to provide for the wife and children. If the wife has a job, what she makes is hers and hers alone if she wishes, but with the husband it is not. We as men in Islam cannot complain about that and neglect this duty of providing. Or the duty of paying the dowry that we can not complain about.

I don't think is it a problem anyways. If a wife commits a sin or any unacceptable act, why let an external foreign party takes care of it instead of family? I don't like how the west allows easy interference with family matters with their laws. Islam already has such laws for +1400 years and it works just fine within rational Muslim communities. The civil law comes only second to internal family laws if the latter gets screwed up. This is what happened here in *audi *rabia to counter abusing or misusing internal rights if the husband beats the wife unjustly and she complains about it.

And btw, is it not like Muslim husbands have habit of beating up wives in Muslim communities :) I personally would never ever hurt my future wife no matter what.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
The reason i said heart because heart shows people what is right. Anyways this is still called Belief. We believe for that reason.
Also others believe that their religions is truth. So the death will bring the good news or the bad news.

Every human is preparing for that, except atheists. Entering the death unprepared. People like them will wish in the grave and on judgement day that they could return to Earth so they become believers.

I do believe the heart to be fickle.
It will follow after it's desire.

It is the deep reasoning that I seek.
I believe it is the formation.

God may have desired to say.....I AM!....
but it was the Spirit (the Word) that formed the light.

I suspect we all take risk, if we fail to part from the flesh.

The grave is indeed eternal darkness.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
whereas theists are God Reliant

Not necessarily. At least not to the point where you're hoping God will do it all. Reminds me of the lottery joke where some guy is whining to God that he's never winning, and God says ... "Maybe you should buy a ticket." But yes it is a trap that some theists can fall into. Leave it all in God's hands. Usually very little happens than.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
When you do something with dedication, even if its a little, it will make a difference...than half-hearted efforts.

ok.....I am not objecting altogether......but.....

I take aim on the items that increase my thought and feeling.
I have intent....my next effort will be excellent and my spirit will increase with each breath.

I am sorry to report.....half a heart is a heart attack.
It will prove fatal.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
A green stick will not shatter when you strike your female property (wife) with it, but will remain effectively stinging, strike after strike across her disobedient back. (How's that for a nice picture).

I think of John Calvin who ordered this religious heretic he disagreed with theologically be burned with green wood. The reason? Because green would takes longer to come to flame and burns much more slowly and at a lower heat. He wanted this man to suffer a more prolonged and tortuous death. Nice guy. So deeply in touch with God. :(
Right, the property is not destroyed and can still be used. About John Calvin, I agree. He must have been a soldier of God.
The Qur'an generally gives a command, which is then either expanded by other verses or hadith of the Prophet. The Scholars of Fiqh then give a ruling based on these evidences.
Are the scholars of Fiqh wiser than Allah? And do you accuse Allah of being ambiguous in his instructions?
 
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