What's wrong with "cherry picking?"

[sun rise]

...
Yes! Well said, indeed. I may continue exploring Islam and end up not calling myself a Muslim, but the core message, the prayer life....I connect with on a spiritual level. I really like how you worded this. Probably best said...I don't wish to do a disservice to the religion itself, but I also have to stay true to my own personal values.

When I read this post I was for some reason reminded of a "rendering" of Hafiz by Dan Ladinsky - not a direct translation but his trying to capture the essence of that great Islamic Sufi Hafiz

I know the way you can get
When you have not had a drink of Love:

Your face hardens,
Your sweet muscles cramp.
Children become concerned
About a strange look that appears in your eyes
Which even begins to worry your own mirror
And nose.

Squirrels and birds sense your sadness
And call an important conference in a tall tree.
They decide which secret code to chant
To help your mind and soul.

Even angels fear that brand of madness
That arrays itself against the world
And throws sharp stones and spears into
The innocent
And into one’s self.

O I know the way you can get
If you have not been drinking Love:

You might rip apart
Every sentence your friends and teachers say,
Looking for hidden clauses.

You might weigh every word on a scale
Like a dead fish.

You might pull out a ruler to measure
From every angle in your darkness
The beautiful dimensions of a heart you once
Trusted.

I know the way you can get
If you have not had a drink from Love’s
Hands.

That is why all the Great Ones speak of
The vital need
To keep remembering God,
So you will come to know and see Him
As being so Playful
And Wanting,
Just Wanting to help.

That is why Hafiz says:
Bring your cup near me.

For I am a Sweet Old Vagabond
With an Infinite Leaking Barrel
Of Light and Laughter and Truth
That the Beloved has tied to my back.

Dear one,
Indeed, please bring your heart near me.
For all I care about
Is quenching your thirst for freedom!

All a Sane man can ever care about
Is giving Love!

 

[Aupmanyav]

The green branch one is a bit more damning. Any Muslims or non-Muslims well-versed in Islam care to comment?

I think a green branch will hurt less than a dry stick. "Allah is compassionate and merciful.".

 

[Kirran]

Well, I guess if men were beating their wives with dry sticks, and Muhammad made them switch to green branches, it's still progress. But I think the compassion goes a bit further than that.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I think a green branch will hurt less than a dry stick. "Allah is compassionate and merciful.".

Why would you assume that?

All else being equal, a green branch is flexible and strong, while a dry branch is lighter, brittle, and more likely to break.

... however, the husband's choice of weapon probably isn't the most offensive aspect of that passage.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I do not know what all Allah knows. He must have had a reason, I think.

 

[Kirran]

I do not know what all Allah knows. He must have had a reason, I think.

At the end of the day, that is a logic which we can't argue with

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

At the end of the day, that is a logic which we can't argue with

Baloney.

IOW, "this book says we should beat our wives with sticks. I can't see any reason why it would be a good idea, but since it says it's from God, we'd better do it."

This sort of thing is what gives people a bad impression of religion.

 

[Servant_of_the_One1]

The verse is talking about disciplinary beating(light)within a heated situation. In Qur'an Allah swt says follow the example of prophet Muhammad pbuh. We know from his life that he treated his wives good and with love. And this should be the example for all muslims, to treat their wives good.

That is sufficient for us.

 

[Sees]

Baloney.

IOW, "this book says we should beat our wives with sticks. I cancatererny reason why it would be a good idea, but since it says it's from God, we'd better do it."

This sort of thing is what gives people a bad impression of religion.

I think of it as catering religion...all your opinions, beliefs, moral judgments served to you on a plate...brought to you by caterers/messengers/prophets.

Works well with the cherry-picking = buffet analogy.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

How do I know I'm not picking the wrong tradition and discarding a better one?

I guess it's a case of doing the research, casting a wide net, keeping an open mind.

 

[Kirran]

Baloney.

IOW, "this book says we should beat our wives with sticks. I can't see any reason why it would be a good idea, but since it says it's from God, we'd better do it."

This sort of thing is what gives people a bad impression of religion.

I'm not saying I'm for that kind of logic, although I may have been unclear.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Belief in a higher power transcends all religious boundaries.

Not for those who don't believe in a higher power.

 

[Servant_of_the_One1]

Besides who says you Must beat your wife? It says you may beat her(lightly).
It doesnt command to beat her.
You can also choose for leaving the house or sleeping on the couch.
The verse was revealed in a time when woman life was worth nothing, she could be killed for speaking the wrong words or looking at the man wrong.
Imagine how shocked the Arabs at that time must have been when they were told they may beat their wives lightly(in heated situation, domestic escalation) or when prophet PBUH said treat your wives good and dont beat them. The Arabs at that time preferred killing or beating wife into coma. We are talking about a time when Fathers buried their daughters alive.
People should read such verses as in context.

 

[Kirran]

@Servant_of_the_One would you say that, if he'd arrived today, Muhammad would have said that it was never permissible to beat your wife (something which probably wouldn't have been accepted at the time)?

If you don't feel comfortable answering this question, then don't

 

[Deidre]

Besides who says you Must beat your wife? It says you may beat her(lightly).
It doesnt command to beat her.
You can also choose for leaving the house or sleeping on the couch.
The verse was revealed in a time when woman life was worth nothing, she could be killed for speaking the wrong words or looking at the man wrong.
Imagine how shocked the Arabs at that time must have been when they were told they may beat their wives lightly(in heated situation, domestic escalation) or when prophet PBUH said treat your wives good and dont beat them. The Arabs at that time preferred killing or beating wife into coma. We are talking about a time when Fathers buried their daughters alive.
People should read such verses as in context.

In my readings lately, I've come to this conclusion, too...it's not obligatory. It's not ''required'' to being/becoming a Muslim. BUT...the problem I've had with it personally, is that it would be better if it weren't mentioned, at all. It can be difficult (uncomfortable) to think of a ''godly'' man hitting his wife, or suggesting to, and that is because I grew up on Jesus. lol

Having said all of this, I read it in the context it was written in, and it was more of a cultural thing, than religious. (even though it's wrapped up in a religious text)

That's how I view it, anyway.

 

[Servant_of_the_One1]

@Servant_of_the_One would you say that, if he'd arrived today, Muhammad would have said that it was never permissible to beat your wife (something which probably wouldn't have been accepted at the time)?

If you don't feel comfortable answering this question, then don't

The prophet PBUH already said that.
If Allah swt tells them to follow example of Prophet pbuh, why wouldnt they follow his example regarding women? He always treated them good.

I see this beating as not something u must do, to make a point.
There is saying of prophet Muhammad pbuh:

“The most complete of the believers in faith, is the one with the best character. And the best of you are those who are best to their women.”(At-Tirmidhi and authenticated by Al-Albani)


2. Ibn `Abbas (may Allah be pleased with him) narrated that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said:

"The best among you is the best towards his wife, and I am the best of you to my wives." (Ibn Majah and authenticated by Al-Albani)



(Lightly) beating is not made the best and first option for a good reason. It reminds me of USA-Iran Nuclear talks( weird example, i know lol). They say all options on table, the last resort being attacking.
A muslim should never go for (lightly) beating, he should try first all other options. Besides controlling your anger is a sign of faith. So if someone has strong faith/Imaan, i dont think he will beat his wife.

 

[JayJayDee]

again, not to my liking. lol
but to what is best for humanity. violence begets violence and that's not best for humanity. as we can see historically, and even currently in some parts of the world.

This is a good criteria for judgment. The scriptures give us God's thoughts and expectations with regard to his creation and Jesus represented his Father in his personality and teachings. Look to his teachings (all of them) and see who is upholding them without justifying breaking his commands in favor of obeying men. This is very revealing. We can't have a foot in both camps and we can't worship God on our own terms.

Any religion that advocates spilling blood for purely political reasons, is the wrong religion. Our own conscience tells us that. Religion used as an a excuse for murder is immoral in anyone's language. God alone has the authority to terminate life. Jesus said that he has been appointed as sole judge of humans on this earth, so any life taken will be done in the future by him, and any activity on earth is what God permits because he has a purpose and he knows the outcome of all future events. We have to trust that he knows what he is doing and will achieve his purpose in spite of disobedient ones, both in heaven and on earth.

Humans are the hostages in a contest between God and his adversary.
Free will is a precious gift, so demonstrating the awful outcome of its abuse can create precedents for the future so that all of God's intelligent creation can retain it. It is part of being made in God's image.

What God purposed in placing humans on earth will yet be achieved, but in God's time, not ours.

 

[Servant_of_the_One1]

In my readings lately, I've come to this conclusion, too...it's not obligatory. It's not ''required'' to being/becoming a Muslim. BUT...the problem I've had with it personally, is that it would be better if it weren't mentioned, at all. It can be difficult (uncomfortable) to think of a ''godly'' man hitting his wife, or suggesting to, and that is because I grew up on Jesus. lol

Having said all of this, I read it in the context it was written in, and it was more of a cultural thing, than religious. (even though it's wrapped up in a religious text)

That's how I view it, anyway.

My advise to you is ofcourse do more research, think about it a lot. Look into all religions.

Perhaps you would give up on religions at all and be just Monotheist.
You shouldnt make hasty decisions. Convert to a religion only if u are fully convinced, including all aspects of the religion.
Otherwise u will have this Fight within yourself against some stuffs of the new religion.

 

[Deidre]

My advise to you is ofcourse do more research, think about it a lot. Look into all religions.

Perhaps you would give up on religions at all and be just Monotheist.
You shouldnt make hasty decisions. Convert to a religion only if u are fully convinced, including all aspects of the religion.
Otherwise u will have this Fight within yourself against some stuffs of the new religion.

I agree I've been praying Salat, but I agree on never rushing into a new faith or set of beliefs.

Are you 100% fully convinced that Islam is the true path to enlightenment and knowing God? Is that a feeling you have, Servant, or do you find Islam to be a logical conclusion, as well?

 

[Servant_of_the_One1]

I agree I've been praying Salat, but I agree on never rushing into a new faith or set of beliefs.

Are you 100% fully convinced that Islam is the true path to enlightenment and knowing God? Is that a feeling you have, Servant, or do you find Islam to be a logical conclusion, as well?

Alhamdulilah iam convinced that islam is the path towards Allah swt after looking into Abrahamic religions. Personaly, i dont like blind following, ''my family is muslim so i should also stay muslim''. I cant explain, but the heart told me islam is the truth, when remembering Allah swt, thinking about the creation and about the hereafter, there is this feeling in heart which cant be described.

But this feeling could also be felt by jew, christian or hindu for their own religions