What's wrong with incest?

[Mock Turtle]

What’s wrong with incest?

This a thorny question. Perhaps first of all because the taboo against it has roots in organized religion, and lies not primarily on a scientific determination, though--yes--mating with a relative may well have deleterious consequences in an offspring. so there is a strictly scientific aspect. "For my money" religious traditions often have a large component of shame and blame, and particularly related to sex, along with plenty of problematic dogma, which probably explains why I value the embrace of a spiritual path, but--for the most part--spurn organized religion.

As I see it, the main issue is the psychological problem of how an adult cohabitating and mating with a young person wields an unequal (even enormous) power and control over that individual....and the relationship may easily have the flavor of abuse. Even with the best of intentions, family relationships can be very psychologically "gamey" or manipulative (as in Eric Berne's psychological games in "Transactional Analysis") and do damage to one (or even both) of the participants. This general problem is also dealt with in "Object Relations" theory. In dysfunctional families, one often observes "co-dependency" (or, in OR terms, "unhealthy merging"), something which can be very pathological (and have a "yucky" feel, even apart from any sexual component.

This relates to the fact that part of becoming a mature, well-balanced person, lies in gradually moving away from the primary merged relationship with the mother, into independence and flowering as a complete person and then, generally, coming to comprehend boundaries and roles between oneself and others, and being able to effectively and fully function. With incestual relationships (and perhaps even with those between two parties with a large age difference), these categories (and "social rules") can become very confusing (and even "crazy-making"), even if not overtly abusive.

Some of the same issues are dealt with in a powerful mystical tradition called the "Diamond Approach" developed by H.L. Almaas (with principles that are similar to those of Sufism and Buddhism).

Now, is incest a sin? For me, no, not exactly, and I would urge you to dispense with any RELIGIOUS slant on the question. Moreover, I don’t consider it to be INHERENTLY a problem. Yet, it generally would be a mistake (more a matter of inappropriateness) because of the psychological problems outlined above, which frequently present, and I would strongly recommend against it. Put another way (and in remembrance of Robert Heinlein's novels), some very mature individuals might be capable of surmounting these problems, but the people in this category would probably be a small group. Finally, to engage in this kind of relationship might lead to complicated and very problematic legal consequences. Better to steer clear of it. Of course, the genetic proximity could be a consideration. I'm not sure I would be bothered by a healthy relationship between, say, second cousins (and even less should the couple practice birth control).

I see we've read the same stuff (Berne) and tend to agree with all you've said.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Sex with children, whether incest or not, is never excusable. It is always rape since children do not have the ability to make informed consent.

Quite so. And all the paedophiles who try to advocate for their desires to become legitimised should take note - but they invariably don't.

 

[Electra]

I can't imagine there are many people in that position!

Agreed, but those aren't limited to family.

How do you define what is natural?

But what if we are attracted to family members?
And what if we aren't interested in having children (or can't)?

Yes, but you can only really see from the eyes you are given. So I can't talk for anyone else but my self.

Natural is what feels the most free/truthfull , this is different for each person yes, and is under a bunch of conditioning.

You have to asses why, as you always should when you are going to give yourself to someone , there could be many reasons.

Each person is different in there path so I can't talk for what everyone should or shouldn't do.

All I know is I crave a platonic family nest.

 

[FearGod]

I wonder why humans are so concerned about sex, some don't even spare the incests, children,boys
and some even the animals.

Is it really that important thing to talk about? the anal hole which feces pass through, and
the other one close to the urine or tasting the saliva.

 

[Poseidon Soter]

You said: I give you one thing, one problem in this type of relation can separate families by ongoing feud and enmity

The same can be said of non-incestuous sexual relations/marriage.

 

[Poseidon Soter]

I wonder why humans are so concerned about sex, some don't even spare the incests, children,boys
and some even the animals.

Is it really that important thing to talk about? the anal hole which feces pass through, and
the other one close to the urine or tasting the saliva.

You haven't answered my question.

 

[Skwim]

I wonder why humans are so concerned about sex, some don't even spare the incests, children,boysand some even the animals.

Perhaps because it's such a enjoyable endeavor, which some people, primarily fundie Christians, would like to see curtailed so as to fit their beliefs. And because many people find this to be a threat to their personal freedoms, they're concerned about it. Additionally, like other enjoyable undertakings in life people often like to share this joy by discussing it. In which case it isn't so much a concern as a fascination. Sound reasonable? To me it does.

Is it really that important thing to talk about? the anal hole which feces pass through, and
the other one close to the urine or tasting the saliva.

Like everything else in the world, if they're worthy of discussion then, YES, they can be important to talk about. Just because you may find sex too embarrassing to talk about doesn't mean everyone else should. In that this seems to be your problem my suggestion is that as soon as you see a sexual issue appear, you simply leave the thread.

.

 

[Baroodi]

You said: I give you one thing, one problem in this type of relation can separate families by ongoing feud and enmity

The same can be said of non-incestuous sexual relations/marriage.

well! do you think disrupting a relation with a closed relative the same as with unrelated person? brothers with interests tightly packed together unable to see each other. do you think a man can have sex with a woman exactly like his mother e.g like an aunt?

 

[Poseidon Soter]

well! do you think disrupting a relation with a closed relative the same as with unrelated person? brothers with interests tightly packed together unable to see each other. do you think a man can have sex with a woman exactly like his mother e.g like an aunt?

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you're getting at.

 

[Cateau]

Well, for one, children born of an incestuous union are at an increased risk of being born with birth defects.

Know what's weird though? From a religious perspective (besides everyone somehow being related because of Adam and Eve) incest was the only means of reproducing, even Einstein married his cousin (yes, even those with a high IQ.) But incest was not condoned b/c god gave Adam permission (the book of Enoch tells us Adam asked god) to marry Eve (for lack of better words permision not to commit adultry on his own flesh by being allowed to procreate (his words not mine lol,) hence god allowed incest in their future. So the weird part as I was saying is that genetically a family has a greater chance to spawning an albino bby due to incest, but according to the book of Enoch the human race was made up of dark pigmented/high leveled melanin ppl, and Abraham's son's son (the son of Enoch) had the first albino BUT up until that point no one else throughout procreating in incest ever produced an albino as a byproduct.......the reason for it is b/c god made the albino or light skinned bby so it would have a place within His ppl, why? B/c the Watchers or fallen angels were already producing low melanin or albino babies with women. So biblically speaking incest had no known side effects when humanity first began to multiply, nor after the world wide flood/restarting humanity up again, but because Noah was albino he spread the albinism on in humanity. It was not due to incest then but now it is said to be traced to it in some cases. Interesting nonetheless, due to the Watchers other races developed, b/c of their DNA and that negatively impacted how they breed on.

 

[Muffled]

Why do you believe that sharing great great grandparents is as close as one should get?

Obviously, if your bottom line is 'God forbids it, therefore it is wrong', I can't really argue with that.

I believe that is fairly safe because sharing great great grandparents means only 12% of the DNA is shared on the average. There can be dominant genes that carry through a lineage more strongly.

 

[Muffled]

Love doesn't mean sex.

I believe some people have trouble separating the two. I also believe one can't have sex with a person without some form of affection being drawn to the person no matter how much the person thinks he is just mechanical.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I believe that is fairly safe because sharing great great grandparents means only 12% of the DNA is shared on the average. There can be dominant genes that carry through a lineage more strongly.

Genetically it is the recessive genes that one has to worry about. A negative dominant mutation disappears from the genome almost immediately. A negative recessive can possibly last forever. They are not a problem until one get's two recessives, one from each parent. And that is more likely with incest. And of course it is not that simple. Take the gene that causes sickle cell anemia. One copy is a positive mutation since it greatly increases the odds of surviving malaria. Two copies and one is apt to develop sickle cell syndrome.

 

[FearGod]

I believe some people have trouble separating the two. I also believe one can't have sex with a person without some form of affection being drawn to the person no matter how much the person thinks he is just mechanical.

I believe God made sex as fun for the purpose of reproduction but if we think about
it then it becomes boring and nonsense.