What's wrong with incest?

[Poseidon Soter]

Yes, but I believe we ought not depreciate privacy. Could the laws be different? Sure. Should they be different, not so sure. I think the laws are sufficient even though they may make illegal some actions that are not contrary to the purposes of the law. Law needn't in all cases be narrowly tailored.

I think we've pursued that line of argument to its conclusion .

 

[Ellen Brown]

The thread title is pretty self-explanatory. But just to expand a little, how do you define incest - how closely-related does someone need to be - and why do you think it is wrong (assuming you do - if you don't, why not?)?

PS

I believe that most Biblical prohibitions have their origins in science, though I'm not prepared to debate that. Perhaps this issue with incest is inbreeding and genetic issues because of it. A Saudi guy told me that to get permission for any marriage, they must take a blood test, and that (I think) 70% of the marriages are turned down because they are too closely related. A big issue over there is Sickle Cell Anemia. They also practice polygamy.

In Utah, guess what? Yup, there is an issue with genetically related illness due to inbreeding. Down around Colorado City, and Hilldale, there is currently a very troubling outbreak of a normally, very rare genetic disease. "fumarase deficiency", bbc article. Legally polygamy is prohibited, but you know ...

My "people" are from Oklahoma and there is talk about that.

So, perhaps the Bible is not far off on many issues.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

I believe that most Biblical prohibitions have their origins in science, though I'm not prepared to debate that. Perhaps this issue with incest is inbreeding and genetic issues because of it. A Saudi guy told me that to get permission for any marriage, they must take a blood test, and that (I think) 70% of the marriages are turned down because they are too closely related. A big issue over there is Sickle Cell Anemia. They also practice polygamy.

In Utah, guess what? Yup, there is an issue with genetically related illness due to inbreeding. Down around Colorado City, and Hilldale, there is currently a very troubling outbreak of a normally, very rare genetic disease. "fumarase deficiency", bbc article. Legally polygamy is prohibited, but you know ...

My "people" are from Oklahoma and there is talk about that.

So, perhaps the Bible is not far off on many issues.

Although according to the Bible we are descended from quite a few incestuous genetic bottlenecks, Adam and Eve, Noah and Co. Lot and his daughters...

 

[Riders]

A good amount of teen baby prostitutes were found out as victems of molestation. Its so physically traumatizing they have to run away from home to get away from it. My Mom use to tell me xrated stories about men rape stories and sicko stuff about sex . It was verbal sex abuse.

She did that into my 20s and early 30s. As a recipient of verbal molestation I felt and still like nothing, like the only thing I have worth giving is sex and sex dominates my life. I wasn't able to get married or have kids and be normal.

I'm recovering from sex addiction. AT one time when I was 28 I ran away from my parents,I'm mentally ill have had to live with my family most of my life.

I ran away and ended up at a truckers lounge when it was raining out and a trucker let me get into his truck. I was mentally ill. I was obese back then but looked very very young like 16 I ended up 3 days on the road 3 guys who gave me cash food beer shower place to sleep for sex.

I got out of that cause the last guy I was with was a Christian. Anyways I have also been a phone sex operator for 6 weeks and I still get tempted to get back on the phones makes me feel worthless like Im only good for my sexuality. It is so so damaging to people. Im damaged.

 

[Vancouversailor]

The thread title is pretty self-explanatory. But just to expand a little, how do you define incest - how closely-related does someone need to be - and why do you think it is wrong (assuming you do - if you don't, why not?)?PS

There are certain things that human beings learned early on. That knowledge was often though not always passed on to future generations in the form of religious dogma i.e. you shall not sleep with your sisters or cousins because that often results in deformed children, or you shall not eat pork (areas of the middle east which due to desert conditions and few opportunities for good hygiene and where intestinal parasites e..g. from pigs were common) or (India) you shall not kill or harm cows (because if you during a famine get tempted to eat the family cows then they will all suffer in coming years because they no longer have a source of milk for the children or animals to help plough the fields during the sowing season. And so on, I'm sure there are many other examples. The reason these rules have survived is because they were based on experience and common sense and became part of the wisdom of the elders. I don't believe there are many educated people today who will challenge the belief that incest is unhealthy and harmful to potential offspring.

 

[Skwim]

I don't believe there are many educated people today who will challenge the belief that incest is unhealthy and harmful to potential offspring.

I have a college degree and challenge your statement by question and resolution.

How is incest unhealthy?

As for being potentially harmful to offspring, this can be eliminated by insuring that no offspring result.

.

 

[Vancouversailor]

Lots of things aren't healthy things to do, but are nevertheless considered acceptable by sometimes large swathes of society. What's different about incest?

Most of those unhealthy things you mention - like drinking alcohol in excess, smoking tobacco, using street drugs, having a lethargic lifestyle etc. - ultimately end up punishing the practitioner. Incest causes harm to other people and can therefore not be compared with 'other unhealthy things that affect oneself'..

 

[Vancouversailor]

I have a college degree and challenge your statement by question and resolution.

How is incest unhealthy?

As for being potentially harmful to offspring, this can be eliminated by insuring that no offspring result.

.

Among other aspects of incest it is usually based on a person with power - e.g. father or older brother - using that power at the expensive of another, weaker family member and for their own gratification. That is mentally unhealthy and also why most jurisdictions frown on student-teacher, doctor-patient or employer-employee relationships.

 

[Skwim]

Among other aspects of incest it is usually based on a person with power - e.g. father or older brother - using that power at the expensive of another, weaker family member and for their own gratification.

Unless you have evidence that age disparity is a common coercive factor in incest relationships your point isn't persuasive. However, if this should be the case in a particular incident it could well make it an issue of rape or at least sexual assault.

That is mentally unhealthy and also why most jurisdictions frown on student-teacher, doctor-patient or employer-employee relationships.

Not because they're mentally unhealthy, but because

Teacher-student sexual relationships frequently involve minors, which makes them illegal. Those occurring among adults, as in college, are seldom frowned upon any more than outside relationships, and can therefore be disregarded.

Those involving doctor-patient relationships are in violation of medical ethics and may be considered sexual misconduct for which a doctor may face professional sanctions.

Employer-employee sexual relationships are strictly a case by case situation, so an employer-employee sexual relationship may or may not be acceptable.
.

 

[Poseidon Soter]

I believe that most Biblical prohibitions have their origins in science, though I'm not prepared to debate that. Perhaps this issue with incest is inbreeding and genetic issues because of it. A Saudi guy told me that to get permission for any marriage, they must take a blood test, and that (I think) 70% of the marriages are turned down because they are too closely related. A big issue over there is Sickle Cell Anemia. They also practice polygamy.

In Utah, guess what? Yup, there is an issue with genetically related illness due to inbreeding. Down around Colorado City, and Hilldale, there is currently a very troubling outbreak of a normally, very rare genetic disease. "fumarase deficiency", bbc article. Legally polygamy is prohibited, but you know ...

My "people" are from Oklahoma and there is talk about that.

So, perhaps the Bible is not far off on many issues.

But all this speaks only against sexual intercourse that has a sufficiently high chance of resulting in the birth of children - what about same-sex sexual relations, or sexual relations where at least one of the parties is infertile/sterile?

 

[Poseidon Soter]

A good amount of teen baby prostitutes were found out as victems of molestation. Its so physically traumatizing they have to run away from home to get away from it. My Mom use to tell me xrated stories about men rape stories and sicko stuff about sex . It was verbal sex abuse.

She did that into my 20s and early 30s. As a recipient of verbal molestation I felt and still like nothing, like the only thing I have worth giving is sex and sex dominates my life. I wasn't able to get married or have kids and be normal.

I'm recovering from sex addiction. AT one time when I was 28 I ran away from my parents,I'm mentally ill have had to live with my family most of my life.

I ran away and ended up at a truckers lounge when it was raining out and a trucker let me get into his truck. I was mentally ill. I was obese back then but looked very very young like 16 I ended up 3 days on the road 3 guys who gave me cash food beer shower place to sleep for sex.

I got out of that cause the last guy I was with was a Christian. Anyways I have also been a phone sex operator for 6 weeks and I still get tempted to get back on the phones makes me feel worthless like Im only good for my sexuality. It is so so damaging to people. Im damaged.

I'm very sorry to hear all that.

 

[Poseidon Soter]

There are certain things that human beings learned early on. That knowledge was often though not always passed on to future generations in the form of religious dogma i.e. you shall not sleep with your sisters or cousins because that often results in deformed children, or you shall not eat pork (areas of the middle east which due to desert conditions and few opportunities for good hygiene and where intestinal parasites e..g. from pigs were common) or (India) you shall not kill or harm cows (because if you during a famine get tempted to eat the family cows then they will all suffer in coming years because they no longer have a source of milk for the children or animals to help plough the fields during the sowing season. And so on, I'm sure there are many other examples. The reason these rules have survived is because they were based on experience and common sense and became part of the wisdom of the elders. I don't believe there are many educated people today who will challenge the belief that incest is unhealthy and harmful to potential offspring.

All well and good in those times, but situations change, meaning that what was once sensible/wise advice may no longer apply.

Wrt incest, you seem to only be focusing on incest that has a sufficiently high chance of resulting in the birth of children..

 

[Poseidon Soter]

Most of those unhealthy things you mention - like drinking alcohol in excess, smoking tobacco, using street drugs, having a lethargic lifestyle etc. - ultimately end up punishing the practitioner. Incest causes harm to other people and can therefore not be compared with 'other unhealthy things that affect oneself'..

Except arguably all of the things you mention above do cause harm to other people, at least some of the time.

 

[Baroodi]

You don't seem to understand how to debate on the internet. You made a positive assertion. That puts the burden of proof upon you when someone week for supporting evidence. If you can't support your claim you refute it yourself.

Please expand/explain what these are and how incest leads to community disarray.

I give you one thing, one problem in this type of relation can separate families by ongoing feud and enmity


Nothing about incest in the above.

 

[Subduction Zone]

What? Broodi you are misusing the multi-quote function. If you want to quote one person click on the "Reply" button, not the "+Quote" button. The plus sign means that you are going to be adding quotes to a reply.

 

[DrTCH]

What’s wrong with incest?

This a thorny question. Perhaps first of all because the taboo against it has roots in organized religion, and lies not primarily on a scientific determination, though--yes--mating with a relative may well have deleterious consequences in an offspring. so there is a strictly scientific aspect. "For my money" religious traditions often have a large component of shame and blame, and particularly related to sex, along with plenty of problematic dogma, which probably explains why I value the embrace of a spiritual path, but--for the most part--spurn organized religion.

As I see it, the main issue is the psychological problem of how an adult cohabitating and mating with a young person wields an unequal (even enormous) power and control over that individual....and the relationship may easily have the flavor of abuse. Even with the best of intentions, family relationships can be very psychologically "gamey" or manipulative (as in Eric Berne's psychological games in "Transactional Analysis") and do damage to one (or even both) of the participants. This general problem is also dealt with in "Object Relations" theory. In dysfunctional families, one often observes "co-dependency" (or, in OR terms, "unhealthy merging"), something which can be very pathological (and have a "yucky" feel, even apart from any sexual component.

This relates to the fact that part of becoming a mature, well-balanced person, lies in gradually moving away from the primary merged relationship with the mother, into independence and flowering as a complete person and then, generally, coming to comprehend boundaries and roles between oneself and others, and being able to effectively and fully function. With incestual relationships (and perhaps even with those between two parties with a large age difference), these categories (and "social rules") can become very confusing (and even "crazy-making"), even if not overtly abusive.

Some of the same issues are dealt with in a powerful mystical tradition called the "Diamond Approach" developed by H.L. Almaas (with principles that are similar to those of Sufism and Buddhism).

Now, is incest a sin? For me, no, not exactly, and I would urge you to dispense with any RELIGIOUS slant on the question. Moreover, I don’t consider it to be INHERENTLY a problem. Yet, it generally would be a mistake (more a matter of inappropriateness) because of the psychological problems outlined above, which frequently present, and I would strongly recommend against it. Put another way (and in remembrance of Robert Heinlein's novels), some very mature individuals might be capable of surmounting these problems, but the people in this category would probably be a small group. Finally, to engage in this kind of relationship might lead to complicated and very problematic legal consequences. Better to steer clear of it. Of course, the genetic proximity could be a consideration. I'm not sure I would be bothered by a healthy relationship between, say, second cousins (and even less should the couple practice birth control).

 

[DrTCH]

Hmmm... Not my cup of tea, but two consenting adults are responsible for their own lives as long as it isn't hurting anyone.

That said, I have to wonder if normalizing incest (socially) would result in more incestuous pregnancies.

I am very sympathetic to your position, Aldrnari (and some of these "alternative relationships" are nicely explored in SciFi writer Robert Heinlein's books, such as "Stranger in a Strange Land," and "Time Enough for Love"), but I think most folks would not be sufficiently mature to make such a relationship work. On the other hand, I will admit that their biggest problem might well (as in these tales) lie in the small mindedness and bigotry of their neighbors (the "little old ladies" of both sexes).; )

 

[DrTCH]

I already explained. While there is nothing necessarily problematic about the limited instance where no offspring can be issued, and no relational disparity exists, we by necessity still object to these unions because it would violate privacy rights to entangle ourselves in order to decide if the case in question was one of the limited instance.

Yes, the messy "entangling" (or pathological "merging"), could be a problem.

 

[Riders]

Yes and something else that hasn't been stated here is this. For older people adults to have sex with children alot of times requires some violent acts because its forced on them against their will and their bodies arent capable of having sex.

Some men have damaged the vaginal and uterous walls bloodied them up a lot. There's a lot of scars bruises by being thrown up against a wall thrown down on the floor what not so.

Also many children get pregnant at the age of 10 and 11,start having babies, they cant raise these children and their grandparents who molested the girl are raising the new born babe its terrible.

However after your grown up aunt and newphew or cousins what have you I think as long as its consensual its fine.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Yes and something else that hasn't been stated here is this. For older people adults to have sex with children alot of times requires some violent acts because its forced on them against their will and their bodies arent capable of having sex.

Some men have damaged the vaginal and uterous walls bloodied them up a lot. There's a lot of scars bruises by being thrown up against a wall thrown down on the floor what not so.

Also many children get pregnant at the age of 10 and 11,start having babies, they cant raise these children and their grandparents who molested the girl are raising the new born babe its terrible.

However after your grown up aunt and newphew or cousins what have you I think as long as its consensual its fine.

Sex with children, whether incest or not, is never excusable. It is always rape since children do not have the ability to make informed consent.