What's Your Take On Salvation?

[Daily Devoted]

Hey, I just wanted to discuss people's views on how one gets saved. Since I am asking this of others I will start it off.

I believe that everyone is born a sinner. Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." I believe that our sins have a cost, which is death - eternal separation from God. Romans 6:23a "For the wages of sin is death;" On our own, we are on our way to Hell, but the verse does not stop there: Romans 6:23 " For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." God loved us enough to send us a way out of death - Jesus Christ. He came down to earth, lived a sinless life, and died on the cross for our sins. Romans 5:8 "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." All we have to do to receive this gift is believe that Jesus died and rose again the third day. Romans 10:9 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."

That is how I believe one is saved. What is your opinion?

 

[smokydot]

Hey, I just wanted to discuss people's views on how one gets saved. Since I am asking this of others I will start it off.

I believe that everyone is born a sinner. Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." I believe that our sins have a cost, which is death - eternal separation from God. Romans 6:23a "For the wages of sin is death;" On our own, we are on our way to Hell, but the verse does not stop there: Romans 6:23 " For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." God loved us enough to send us a way out of death - Jesus Christ. He came down to earth, lived a sinless life, and died on the cross for our sins. Romans 5:8 "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." All we have to do to receive this gift is believe that Jesus died and rose again the third day. Romans 10:9 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."
That is how I believe one is saved. What is your opinion?

The NT adds that we are saved by faith in Jesus Christ, which is evidenced by obedience to Jesus' commands.

 

[Daily Devoted]

The NT adds that we are saved by faith in Jesus Christ, which is evidenced by obedience to Jesus' commands.

yep. In James it says that we prove our faith through works. James 2:26 "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

 

[Thesavorofpan]

Hey, I just wanted to discuss people's views on how one gets saved. Since I am asking this of others I will start it off.

I believe that everyone is born a sinner. Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." I believe that our sins have a cost, which is death - eternal separation from God. Romans 6:23a "For the wages of sin is death;" On our own, we are on our way to Hell, but the verse does not stop there: Romans 6:23 " For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." God loved us enough to send us a way out of death - Jesus Christ. He came down to earth, lived a sinless life, and died on the cross for our sins. Romans 5:8 "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." All we have to do to receive this gift is believe that Jesus died and rose again the third day. Romans 10:9 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."

That is how I believe one is saved. What is your opinion?

One must live a sinless lifestyle to hold onto their salvation, but our holy text have been translated so many times we no longer know what is sin and what is not sin. So no I don't believe there is salvation for anyone. There will be no one in Heaven.

 

[Daily Devoted]

One must live a sinless lifestyle to hold onto their salvation, but our holy text have been translated so many times we no longer know what is sin and what is not sin. So no I don't believe there is salvation for anyone. There will be no one in Heaven.

Jesus lived a sinless life and died on the cross to pay for our sins. All you have to do is trust in Him. Trust in Him and you will be in Heaven after you die.

 

[tomato1236]

Jesus saves. I saw it on a billboard.

 

[Thief]

More like....
Love God.
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

The first is obvious.
The second is fair warning.

 

[Katzpur]

Hey, I just wanted to discuss people's views on how one gets saved. Since I am asking this of others I will start it off.

Sounds fun.

I believe that everyone is born a sinner.

At this point, I guess all I want to know is what sin we are born guilty of.

All we have to do to receive this gift is believe that Jesus died and rose again the third day.

The Bible says that "the devils also believe."

That is how I believe one is saved. What is your opinion?

For starters, I believe that our faith in Christ must not be a dead faith -- you know, the kind without works.

 

[ellenjanuary]

That's kinda funny. I'm picturing the smiling salesman, standing in my doorway, selling salvation:

"Hi! I believe everyone is born a sinner -"
"Really? I forgive you. Go, my son, and sin no more."

No sale. But to cross over the threshold with a minimal of fuss and bother? Others before self, love and compassion... and that should do it. Try to get along without kicking up a bunch of controversy, that's my strategy.

 

[Daily Devoted]

At this point, I guess all I want to know is what sin we are born guilty of.

Psalm 51:5 "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me."

Romans 5:12 "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"

We inherit sin from our parents, and our parents from their parents all the way back to Adam and Eve.

The Bible says that "the devils also believe."

James 2:19 "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble."

The devils believe that there is a God. Belief in God doesn't produce Salvation.

 

[Katzpur]

Psalm 51:5 "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me."

Romans 5:12 "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"

We inherit sin from our parents, and our parents from their parents all the way back to Adam and Eve.

That's nice, but you didn't really answer my question, so I'll ask it again: What sin were you guilty of when you were born? Was it the sin committed by some man 6000 years ago? I thought Jesus Christ died to atone for that sin. Or is being born a sin in and of itself?

James 2:19 "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble."

The devils believe that there is a God. Belief in God doesn't produce Salvation.

But a belief in Christ does? Could you explain the logic behind that, please? I think you're missing the point that was being made in James 2:19, that point being that it is easy to believe. In other words, it's easy to talk the talk, but walking the walk is much more difficult. Is it really any easier to say, "I believe in God," than it is to say, "I believe in Christ"? Do you really think Jesus Christ would have spent so much time telling us to feed the hungry and to clothe the naked if our compliance was not important to Him?

And while we're on the subject of obedience, what do you believe Jesus was saying when He explained how He would discern the sheep from the goats? He said that the sheep (those who were obedient to His commandments) would enter into eternal life, while the goats (those who were not), into eternal destruction? Where does that leave those who believe but do not obey Him?

 

[Daily Devoted]

That's nice, but you didn't really answer my question, so I'll ask it again: What sin were you guilty of when you were born? Was it the sin committed by some man 6000 years ago? I thought Jesus Christ died to atone for that sin. Or is being born a sin in and of itself?

As those Scriptures obviously state: We inherit sin. In other words, Adam's sin caused the whole race of humanity to fall into sin. The sin is not just being born. Romans 5:12 "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:" When Adam sinned, we all sinned: the whole human race. "The sin of all is centered in that of the one man Adam." - Basic Theology by Charles C. Ryrie pg. 257

But a belief in Christ does? Could you explain the logic behind that, please? I think you're missing the point that was being made in James 2:19, that point being that it is easy to believe. In other words, it's easy to talk the talk, but walking the walk is much more difficult. Is it really any easier to say, "I believe in God," than it is to say, "I believe in Christ"? Do you really think Jesus Christ would have spent so much time telling us to feed the hungry and to clothe the naked if our compliance was not important to Him?

Not a belief that Christ exists, but a belief that Christ lived a sinless life, died for our sins on the cross and rose the third day. It is easy to say, I believe in Christ, but true belief will manifest itself in works. So, those who are truly saved, will do these good works.

And while we're on the subject of obedience, what do you believe Jesus was saying when He explained how He would discern the sheep from the goats? He said that the sheep (those who were obedient to His commandments) would enter into eternal life, while the goats (those who were not), into eternal destruction? Where does that leave those who believe but do not obey Him?

Those who are authentic citizens of Christ's kingdom (those who truly believe in Him) will prove their citizenship through their works. That is what this passage is referring to. This actually helps to prove my point that true believers are recognized by their works. Because you tell the goats from the sheep by their works.

 

[Katzpur]

As those Scriptures obviously state: We inherit sin. In other words, Adam's sin caused the whole race of humanity to fall into sin. The sin is not just being born.

So what is it then? You still didn't say what sin we are born guilty of. You can quote scripture all you want, but I am looking for a straightforward answer as to what sin you believe a newborn baby is guilty of. I don't believe those scriptures say we inherit sin. Sin is the willful transgression of a moral law or religious principle. It is virtually impossible for a newborn baby to sin because a newborn baby has no understanding of right or wrong. What we inherited is Adam's mortal nature, which makes us predisposed to sin -- once we are of an age where we can know the difference between right and wrong. All have sinned who are in a position to be able to sin. A baby isn't.

Since you believe, though, that we are all born sinners, I am assuming that you also believe that we deserve to be punished for those sins. Would you agree that God would certainly punish anyone who had truly sinned and failed to repent? If that is the case, what punishment do you believe God will inflict upon a newborn baby who dies "an unrepentant sinner"?

Romans 5:12 "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:" When Adam sinned, we all sinned: the whole human race. "The sin of all is centered in that of the one man Adam." - Basic Theology by Charles C. Ryrie pg. 257

Does Charles C. Ryrie tell us somewhere in his book what our sin was? I'm not talking about the sins we all commit as adults. I'm talking about the one we are born guilty of. Does he explain why Jesus' atoning sacrifice failed to apply to Adam's sin when it supposedly covers your sins and mine?

Not a belief that Christ exists, but a belief that Christ lived a sinless life, died for our sins on the cross and rose the third day. It is easy to say, I believe in Christ, but true belief will manifest itself in works. So, those who are truly saved, will do these good works.

Those who are authentic citizens of Christ's kingdom (those who truly believe in Him) will prove their citizenship through their works. That is what this passage is referring to. This actually helps to prove my point that true believers are recognized by their works. Because you tell the goats from the sheep by their works.

Okay, that makes more sense. Sort of. So we're not saved by our works, but if we don't do good works, we're not really saved?

 

[Daily Devoted]

So what is it then? You still didn't say what sin we are born guilty of. You can quote scripture all you want, but I am looking for a straightforward answer as to what sin you believe a newborn baby is guilty of. I don't believe those scriptures say we inherit sin. Sin is the willful transgression of a moral law or religious principle. It is virtually impossible for a newborn baby to sin because a newborn baby has no understanding of right or wrong. What we inherited is Adam's mortal nature, which makes us predisposed to sin -- once we are of an age where we can know the difference between right and wrong. All have sinned who are in a position to be able to sin. A baby isn't.

A baby inherits sin. What I am saying is that through Adam the entire race sinned. In other words: if any other human had been in Adam's position, we too would have sinned. Our will was in Adam, because we all came from Adam.

Since you believe, though, that we are all born sinners, I am assuming that you also believe that we deserve to be punished for those sins. Would you agree that God would certainly punish anyone who had truly sinned and failed to repent? If that is the case, what punishment do you believe God will inflict upon a newborn baby who dies "an unrepentant sinner"?

There is an age of accountability. It is different for each person. We can't say a specific age that it is. If a person dies before the age of accountability, he is taken to heaven. Scriptural support comes from the account of King David's sons death. 2 Samuel 12:19 But when David saw that his servants whispered, David perceived that the child was dead: therefore David said unto his servants, Is the child dead? And they said, He is dead.
20 Then David arose from the earth, and washed, and anointed himself, and changed his apparel, and came into the house of the LORD, and worshipped: then he came to his own house; and when he required, they set bread before him, and he did eat.
21 Then said his servants unto him, What thing is this that thou hast done? thou didst fast and weep for the child, while it was alive; but when the child was dead, thou didst rise and eat bread.
22 And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?
23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me. David is referring to going to be with him after he dies. The child will not come back to this life to him, but he will go to his child in heaven.

Does Charles C. Ryrie tell us somewhere in his book what our sin was? I'm not talking about the sins we all commit as adults. I'm talking about the one we are born guilty of. Does he explain why Jesus' atoning sacrifice failed to apply to Adam's sin when it supposedly covers your sins and mine?

Yes. He says that when Adam sinned, the whole race sinned because Adam contained the seed of his posterity so that when he sinned, all actually sinned. Hebrews 7:9 "And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him."

Levi is accredited with the paid tithes, because he was in Abraham's loins.

Okay, that makes more sense. Sort of. So we're not saved by our works, but if we don't do good works, we're not really saved?

A saved person will not always do what is right, but if one is truly saved he should have a desire to obey and do good works, unless the Christian has rebelled against the Spirit to the point that God has given him over to his evil desires. Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

 

[Midnight Pete]

Hey, I just wanted to discuss people's views on how one gets saved. Since I am asking this of others I will start it off.

I believe that everyone is born a sinner. Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." I believe that our sins have a cost, which is death - eternal separation from God. Romans 6:23a "For the wages of sin is death;" On our own, we are on our way to Hell, but the verse does not stop there: Romans 6:23 " For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." God loved us enough to send us a way out of death - Jesus Christ. He came down to earth, lived a sinless life, and died on the cross for our sins. Romans 5:8 "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." All we have to do to receive this gift is believe that Jesus died and rose again the third day. Romans 10:9 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."

That is how I believe one is saved. What is your opinion?

We have the same take on salvation. Exactly.

 

[Midnight Pete]

One must live a sinless lifestyle to hold onto their salvation, but our holy text have been translated so many times we no longer know what is sin and what is not sin. So no I don't believe there is salvation for anyone. There will be no one in Heaven.

No one leads a sinless lifestyle. Why? Because it's impossible. We are not expected to live up to the impossible standard set by Jesus Christ. It's better to fall on your knees and admit you are a sinner. People who do not think they are sinners are really in trouble, IMO.

 

[Katzpur]

Daily Devoted, from now on, I'm going to post my actual questions in red, simply because you seem to be missing them. You sort of talk around the topic, but you have yet to actually respond to some of my very straightforward questions. Maybe this new approach will help.

A baby inherits sin. What I am saying is that through Adam the entire race sinned. In other words: if any other human had been in Adam's position, we too would have sinned. Our will was in Adam, because we all came from Adam.

Okay, so what I'm getting out of this is that we are guilty of a sin we never commited because we apparently would have committed it if given the opportunity. By that reasoning, Adam too was guilty before he actually ate the forbidden fruit, simply because he was ultimately going to do so. I'm assuming you find this to be a completely rational explanation. I definitely don't. I believe we are guilty of the sins we actually commit and that there is no way a loving Father in Heaven would hold anyone responsible for something he didn't do.

(1) If your father had robbed a bank at sometime in his life, would you inherit his sin?

(2) If you had a child, would you hold him responsible for a sin you committed?

(3) Since I'm assuming you believe God to be at least as just and fair as you are, why do you believe He would hold you responsible for something Adam did?

(4) Why would you be guilty of doing something Adam did any more than you'd be guilty of something your father did?

(5) Why do you think we would have done what Adam did if we'd been in his position?

(6) Please define "sin." No scriptures, please, just an explanation of what you believe sin to be.

There is an age of accountability. It is different for each person. We can't say a specific age that it is. If a person dies before the age of accountability, he is taken to heaven.

I agree that if a person died before reaching the age of accountability, he goes to Heaven. This is because he cannot be held accountable for his behavior. But you have already said that a newborn baby is guilty of having sinned.

(7) How does accountability figure in to it?

(8) Why would a person not be accountable for his sins?

(9) How can a person be guilty but not accountable?

Yes. He says that when Adam sinned, the whole race sinned because Adam contained the seed of his posterity so that when he sinned, all actually sinned.

He may say it, but the Bible certainly doesn't.

(10) Why didn't Jesus Christ's Atonement cover Adam's sin?

A saved person will not always do what is right, but if one is truly saved he should have a desire to obey and do good works, unless the Christian has rebelled against the Spirit to the point that God has given him over to his evil desires.

Okay, so the bottom line appears to be that even though we are not "saved" because of our obedience and good works, it is through our obedience and good works that we prove that our faith is real.

(11) Would that be an accurate statement?

 

[Katzpur]

We have the same take on salvation. Exactly.

Pete, I would be interested in hearing your answers to the questions I posed in my post #17, since you are in perfect agreement with Devoted.

 

[Daily Devoted]

Okay, so what I'm getting out of this is that we are guilty of a sin we never commited because we apparently would have committed it if given the opportunity. By that reasoning, Adam too was guilty before he actually ate the forbidden fruit, simply because he was ultimately going to do so. I'm assuming you find this to be a completely rational explanation. I definitely don't. I believe we are guilty of the sins we actually commit and that there is no way a loving Father in Heaven would hold anyone responsible for something he didn't do.

Adam was not guilty before he committed it. Don't you see the Scriptural support for the fact that our will was a part of Adam's will, because we came from Adam? I showed you that passage that attributed Abraham's actions to Levi.

(1) If your father had robbed a bank at sometime in his life, would you inherit his sin?

I inherit my sin nature from him. That does not necessarily mean that I inherited this particular sin.

(2) If you had a child, would you hold him responsible for a sin you committed?

I would not, but I realize that my being a sinner means that my child is a sinner. If I were sinless, or without a sin nature he would be as well.

(3) Since I'm assuming you believe God to be at least as just and fair as you are, why do you believe He would hold you responsible for something Adam did?

He holds the whole human race responsible for sin. He is just to do so because we are the sons and daughters of sin.

(4) Why would you be guilty of doing something Adam did any more than you'd be guilty of something your father did?

My father passes down sin to me. I am born guilty because I came from the loins/seed of a sinner.

(5) Why do you think we would have done what Adam did if we'd been in his position?

The biggest reason is because we came from Adam, but it is apparent that when given a rule we, as humans automatically test the rule giver by breaking his rules.

(6) Please define "sin." No scriptures, please, just an explanation of what you believe sin to be.

I am very surprised at how you don't accept the Scriptures. Sin is anything contrary to the character of God.

(7) How does accountability figure in to it?

We are guilty from the womb, but when a baby dies before the age of accountability, God has mercy on him because he was not able to receive or reject the message of Salvation.

(8) Why would a person not be accountable for his sins?

Look at the above answer.

(9) How can a person be guilty but not accountable?

Again, the last answer.

(10) Why didn't Jesus Christ's Atonement cover Adam's sin?

It did, but it does not remove the fact that the sin was there and that we are conceived in sin.

Okay, so the bottom line appears to be that even though we are not "saved" because of our obedience and good works, it is through our obedience and good works that we prove that our faith is real.

(11) Would that be an accurate statement?

Yes.

 

[Katzpur]

Adam was not guilty before he committed it.

But we are?

Don't you see the Scriptural support for the fact that our will was a part of Adam's will, because we came from Adam?

I have never denied that we inherited Adam's nature, his inclination towards sin. I would go so far as saying that the natural man is an enemy to God and that this has been the case since the Fall of Adam. Furthermore, we will continue to be in this state unless we yield to the promptings of the Holy Ghost, which will encourage us to repent of our sins and accept Jesus Christ's atoning sacrifice. That is different from actually inheriting sin itself. I think the difference between us is that I made a distinction between having a naturally sinful nature and actually commiting a sin. You apparently see them as one and the same. I believe we become sinners when we sin, which we will all do. Unless I'm mistaken, you see us as sinners before we yield to temptation and actually sin.

I inherit my sin nature from him. That does not necessarily mean that I inherited this particular sin.

I agree. You inherited your sinful nature from him, just as you inherited your sinful nature from Adam. But you did not inherit Adam's particular sin from him either. Consequently, you are not guilty of that sin and will not be held accountable for it.

I would not, but I realize that my being a sinner means that my child is a sinner. If I were sinless, or without a sin nature he would be as well.

It sounds as if you're saying that a sinner is someone whose ancestors have sinned. To me a sinner is a person who has committed a sin.

He holds the whole human race responsible for sin. He is just to do so because we are the sons and daughters of sin.

Wow. I can't imagine God holding one person responsible for someone else's sins. We surely have enough of our own sins to be held responsible for to be held responsible for someone else's.

My father passes down sin to me. I am born guilty because I came from the loins/seed of a sinner.

Okay. Whatever.

The biggest reason is because we came from Adam, but it is apparent that when given a rule we, as humans automatically test the rule giver by breaking his rules.

I agree that we do, but it seems as if you believe we're guilty of breaking the rules before we ever do.

I am very surprised at how you don't accept the Scriptures. Sin is anything contrary to the character of God.

I accept the scriptures. (I accept more scriptures than you do! ). It's just that it really doesn't accomplish anything to just quote scripture since different people will interpret the scriptures differently or will choose one passage while completely ignoring another one. Sometimes it's helpful to just talk things through. By the way, where did you get your definition of 'sin'?

We are guilty from the womb, but when a baby dies before the age of accountability, God has mercy on him because he was not able to receive or reject the message of Salvation.

Again, our disagreement seems to be in the way that we define what it means to be a sinner. Since I'm pretty sure the Bible does not actually define either the word "sin" or the word "sinner," I took the liberty of looking up the words in my Webster's Unabridged Dictionary. Here's what I found:

Sin: Any voluntary transgression of a religious law or moral principle.
Sinner: One who sins.

I believe the key word here is "voluntary." A person has to choose to disobey a religious law in order to sin. Obviously, if he does not know of the law, he cannot voluntarily break it. A sinner is a person who voluntarily disobeys God's commandments. There is nothing to imply that a voluntary choice to act when tempted can be inherited. By the way, when the scripture says "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me," I believe it is referring to the mother's sins. In other words, our mothers are sinful when they conceived us -- not because they were born sinful, but because they have sinned.

By the way, are you aware that the doctrine of Original Sin was not taught until 200 years after Christ's death?