No need for fallacies, my friend. If you have no further argument then to believe something against logic is your choice. Otherwise, if you have no intention of accepting logic presented, do not start a debate in the first place.
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When did Lucifer become Satan
- Thread starter mr black
- Start date
No need for fallacies, my friend. If you have no further argument then to believe something against logic is your choice. Otherwise, if you have no intention of accepting logic presented, do not start a debate in the first place.
When do you think the war in heaven was/is?
Twig pentagram
High Priest
Whenever sheeple decided to start calling the two the same.
gnostic
The Lost One
mr black said:
mr black said:
There is no such person or angel or fallen angel as Lucifer in the Old Testament or Hebrew scriptures (Tanakh) or even in the New Testament. Satan was never associated with the name "Lucifer" in either scripture.
Lucifer only existed because of Jerome's translation of Isaiah 14:12, in which he had translated the morning star to Lucifer. And the morning star or day star had more to do with the King of Babylonia at that time, not with any angel or fallen angel, so it wasn't another of Satan until much later.
And there were certainly no rebellion in heaven in the Hebrew scriptures. According to the Judaism, angels don't have free-will so it is not possible for any angel to rebel.
If you think Lucifer or the morning star was referring Satan, then Lucifer must also refer to Jesus as well, because Jesus was associated with the morning star in Revelation 22:16 and with the day star in 2 Peter 1:19.
idea
Question Everything
No Mormons have posted yet?
basically, all of the spirits gathered together in a big council,
God and Satan both presented plans for spirits to gain bodies and progress in knowledge and wisdom.
God's plan: grant everyone free will - through which people would make mistakes, but then provide the atonement..
Satan's plan: don't let anyone have free will, just force people to be good (no pain, no wars, no free will)
so 1/3 of the spirits followed Satan and became the fallen angels, and the rest of us followed God and are born onto the earth.
if you want more of the Mormon view - just go to http://www.lds.org/?lang=eng
in the upper RHC there is a search spot - type in any of the above terms (Lucifer, Premortal life, war in heaven, etc. etc. etc.)
cheers! Happy friday night to you all!
basically, all of the spirits gathered together in a big council,
God and Satan both presented plans for spirits to gain bodies and progress in knowledge and wisdom.
God's plan: grant everyone free will - through which people would make mistakes, but then provide the atonement..
Satan's plan: don't let anyone have free will, just force people to be good (no pain, no wars, no free will)
so 1/3 of the spirits followed Satan and became the fallen angels, and the rest of us followed God and are born onto the earth.
if you want more of the Mormon view - just go to http://www.lds.org/?lang=eng
in the upper RHC there is a search spot - type in any of the above terms (Lucifer, Premortal life, war in heaven, etc. etc. etc.)
cheers! Happy friday night to you all!
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It never says anywhere that Lucifer and Satan are the same.
Let's say I accept the 1914 scenario, that means that satan has been living with god in heaven all this time. So who's been helping whom?
As stated in my post, your story right here is what does not make sense.
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Did you perchance notice the question marks Ergo that is not MY story, but a series of questions, regarding someone else's story. Do you get it yet? That's a question.Originally Posted by mr black
So it's been longer than that? How could satan have been the ruler of earth ever since the fall of man, allegedly caused by him, when he's still one of god's angels? And not the adversary he's supposed to be? If he isn't the one who has been deceiving man for 6 thousand yrs then who has. Who was it that tempted Jesus? Your story, quite simply, makes no sense.
As stated in my post, your story right here is what does not make sense.
You are right, I am sorry. I was under the assumption that questions could be asked in more than one contex such as sarcasticaly, for explanation of opposing ideas, devil's advocate... I will try and adopt a much narrower, black and white view of things. No promises...
fallingblood
Agnostic Theist
With the serpent in Genesis. I think it is metaphorical story, that really needs no manipulator behind the serpent. We are told that God created all the animals, and thus the serpent. It, based on it's own will (or maybe that of God), tempted Eve. There is no suggestion of Satan, or any other similar being behind the serpent.
As for Job, it is an interesting story. I have heard some arguments that it is believed that the sections mentioning Satan were a later addition. Either way though, when one reads a Hebrew version of the story, Satan is not there. Instead, it is just an adversary, and the term suggests in Hebrew. Later on, this character was equated with Satan by some, and I think that was just a poor happening based on a poor understanding of the language.
Just as a side note, Satan ends up turning into Lucifer, or gets Lucifer as a second name. Lucifer never becomes Satan. I believe Gnostic goes further into this.
Where would you say Satan was living if it wasn't in heaven?
Well apparently he has been king of earth. So if he wasn't down here tempting everybody including Jesus then what the F was he doing. Oh and I think god had something to say to him in eden. But of course, having some sort of script continuity is not part of the beliefs that you ascribe too. Now satan has been wandering around earth claiming souls willy nilly, even an attempt at Jesus' soul, but he's been living it up big in heaven with his mate god up until 1914. What sort of drugs do you need to convince yourself of this drivel?
See this page for more info on who the serpent was Revelation 12:9 The great dragon was hurled down--that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him. and read the Barnes' notes at the bottom. 2nd paragraph
Satan means adversary. It actually calls him The Adversary, giving a definite article. Also, Gill's Exposition of the Bible says this: "...and Satan came also among them; which word signifies an "adversary", as in 1 Kings 11:14 but does not design here a man adversary, as there, or one that envied Job's prosperity, as Saadiah Gaon thinks, but an evil spirit, the old serpent, the devil, as in Revelation 12:9 who is an implacable and bitter enemy to men, especially to Christ and his people; and so has this name from his hatred of them, and opposition to them: Origen (k) observes, that this word, translated into the Greek language, is an "adversary"; but R. Levi (l) derives it from "to decline" or "turn aside"; and so Suidas says (m), Satan, in the Hebrew language, is an apostate...."
Not sure if you answered this, but when was the war in heaven? Has it happened or will it happen?
Who told you that it happened, other than Charlie? Cos he also claimed that it happened in 1878 I think, or was that a different prophecy?
Or perhaps it has happened all of the other times your doomsday cult has predicted it to happen?
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