When did Lucifer become Satan

[Youtellme]

I'm just curious as to where you came up with the dates.

No probs, it's a bit of a read as it's taken a WT from 1984 1st of April issue but gives you a good break down of the dates:


1914 a Marked Year—Why?

WHERE were you in the year*1914? Would you answer: ‘I was not born’? But a few million people today can still remember the year*1914.
In 1914 Mary was completing her last year in high school, learning German and anticipating a rewarding career as a schoolteacher. That summer, before going off to college, she was out in the fields of her father’s farm on the northeastern coast of the United States picking worms off the shiny skins of ripening tomatoes when halfway around the world, in Sarajevo, an assassin’s bullet cut short the life of an Austrian archduke. It sparked the explosion of World War*I. When news of the war reached Mary, she thought: ‘It has come true! Just what the Bible Students were saying has come true; 1914*is going to be a marked year!’
Mary was not the only one who felt that way about world events. On August*30, 1914, the arresting headline “End of All Kingdoms in 1914” blazed across page*4 of the Sunday magazine section of The World, a leading New York newspaper. “The terrific war outbreak in Europe has fulfilled an extraordinary prophecy,” stated this feature article. “For a quarter of a century past, through preachers and through press, the ‘International Bible Students [Jehovah’s Witnesses],’ best known as ‘Millennial Dawners,’ have been proclaiming to the world that the Day of Wrath prophesied in the Bible would dawn in*1914. ‘Look out for*1914!’ has been the cry of the hundreds of traveling evangelists who, representing this strange creed, have gone up and down the country enunciating the doctrine that ‘the Kingdom of God is at hand.’”
Whether you were alive in that year or not, 1914*should mean more to you than a mere calendar sheet curled and yellowed with age or a headline on a crumbled magazine page. It is a momentous year that touches your life today.

'Why Is 1914 a Marked Year?'

How did Jehovah’s Witnesses know more than 30*years in advance that 1914*would be an important date for divine rulership? Though the Witnesses at the time did not understand the full implication of events about to take place, the Watch Tower magazine as far back as December of*1879 pointed to*1914 as a marked date in regard to Bible prophecy. And the March*1880 issue of the Watch Tower linked God’s Kingdom rule with the ending of what Jesus Christ referred to as “the appointed times of the nations,” or “the times of the Gentiles.” (Luke 21:24; Authorized Version) That Watch Tower said: “‘The Times of the Gentiles’ extend to*1914, and the heavenly kingdom will not have full sway till then.”
What is meant by the expression ‘Gentile Times,’ or “appointed times of the nations”? And how is it connected with God’s Kingdom? To answer these questions, let us take a more detailed look at Jesus’ words. He said: “Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations [Gentiles], until the appointed times of the nations [Gentiles] are fulfilled.”—Luke 21:24.

What is meant by “Jerusalem”? It points to God’s Kingdom. How do we know? Ancient Israel was God’s chosen people from 1513*B.C.E. down to the first century of our Common Era. (Exodus 19:6; Matthew 23:37, 38) Jehovah organized them under a typical theocratic government, or God-rule. Jerusalem became the capital city. It was there that the God-anointed line of kings from David sat “upon Jehovah’s throne.” They ruled as kings for Jehovah. (1*Chronicles 29:23; 2*Chronicles 9:8) The Cyclopaedia by M’Clintock and Strong states: “Jerusalem had been made the imperial residence of the king of all Israel; and the Temple, often called ‘the house of Jehovah,’ constituted at the same time the residence of the King of kings, the supreme head of the theocratical state.”
When and how was Jerusalem trampled on by the Gentiles? The trampling began in 607*B.C.E. How? By the abrupt ending of the Davidic dynasty. King Zedekiah was dethroned and the city of Jerusalem destroyed by waves of invading Babylonians under Nebuchadnezzar. The Bible at Ezekiel 21:26, 27 foretold this breach in the Davidic line of kings by saying: “Lift off the crown .*.*. it will certainly become no one’s until he comes who has the legal right, and I must give it to him.” God’s rule was under restraint until “the appointed times of the nations” would end. Thus, the Gentile Times were a time period when the nations ruled without Jehovah God’s having a government to represent his rulership in the earth.

When the Gentile Times ended, Jehovah was to give the power to rule to the One “who has the legal right,” Jesus Christ. Therefore,*1914 would mark the time when Christ began to rule as King in God’s heavenly Kingdom, and since his rulership extends down to this day, it touches you.
How was the chronology figured to mark*1914? The June*1880 issue of the Watch Tower magazine explains: “The long period of 2520*years and their bitter experience under the dominion of the beasts, (human governments, Dan.*vii.) is clearly represented in Dan.*iv., by the ‘seven times’ of Nebuchadnezzar and his bitter experience among the beasts.” So we must return to the baffling dream of the Babylonian king to trace its line of chronology to*1914.
Prophetic Blueprint
Jehovah, by means of his prophets, has always given his people a prophetic blueprint to follow. “For the Sovereign Lord Jehovah will not do a thing unless he has revealed his confidential matter to his servants the prophets,” states Amos 3:7. For example, Noah was God’s special messenger over 4,000*years ago. Jehovah gave Noah a prophetic warning of the watery destruction that was to come upon that wicked world. (Genesis 6:3; 7:4) What occurred then was also a pattern of a future destruction of the ungodly during the invisible “presence of the Son of man,” Jesus Christ. (Matthew 24:37-39) So it should not seem unusual that what Daniel traced out for Nebuchadnezzar’s world rulership—his fall and his return to power—was also a small-scale illustration of variations in theocratic world domination by God’s anointed King.

What do we see when we examine the prophetic pattern of Daniel 4:10-17? The giant, heaven-high tree represents divine rulership. The tree was cut down when God’s Kingdom of Judah with its capital in Jerusalem fell in 607*B.C.E. After “seven times” of beastly rule by the nations passed, the two constraining bands of metal were released, and divine rulership was restored when Jesus Christ began to rule as King in God’s heavenly government in 1914.
A Day for a Year
How do we know that the “seven times” are 2,520*years? The calculations are made in a way similar to those made by the Watch Tower Society’s first president, C.*T.*Russell, in*1877 and recorded in the book he coauthored entitled The Three Worlds. This is how it is done: In Revelation chapter*12, verses*6 and*14, we learn that 1,260*days are equal to “a time [that is, 1*time] and times [that is, 2*times] and half a time,” or a total of 3 1⁄2*times. So “a time” would be equal to 360*days. “Seven times” would be*360 multiplied by*7, or 2,520*days. Now if we count a day for a year, according to a Bible rule, the “seven times” equal 2,520*years. (Numbers 14:34; Ezekiel 4:6) Therefore, the duration of the “seven times,” the Gentile Times, is from 607*B.C.E. to 1914*C.E.

What reasons are there for believing that Nebuchadnezzar’s prophetic tree dream stretches into our 20th*century and finds fulfillment in God’s Kingdom? One reason is this: Much of the book of Daniel involves prophecies that find fulfillment in world rulership and God’s Kingdom after the lifetime of Daniel. Read, for example, Daniel chapter*2. It depicts a multimetal image representing successive world powers that are pulverized. By what? God’s Kingdom! (Daniel 2:44) Or read Daniel chapter*7 where successive world governments are seen as wild beasts rising out of the sea and finally being replaced by one rulership. Which one? God’s Kingdom! (Daniel 7:14) Or read Daniel chapters*11 and*12. In those chapters a king of the north and a king of the south keep testing each other out in a battle for world supremacy until they meet their defeat at the hand of Prince Michael. (Daniel 12:1) Who is this Michael? Jesus Christ, ruler in God’s Kingdom!
Thus the year*1914 was marked for a very good reason. It signaled the start of the righteous rule toward the earth by God’s Kingdom. It spelled doom for the wicked. It pointed to “the last days” of this ungodly system of things. (2*Timothy 3:1) It signaled a countdown to the start of a Paradise earth.
There are other reasons why*1914 is a marked year that touches you. These will be considered in future issues of The Watchtower.

 

[Rakhel]

So, what? WW1 then?

 

[Youtellme]

So, what? WW1 then?

Eh? Coincidence. I take it you didn't read it?

 

[Rakhel]

Seems like every other prophesy. adding and subtracting years based on an interpretation(not interpenetration as the spell check suggests...wow) of biblical chronology.

 

[mr black]

tellme, what about 1887 and 1918 and 1923 and 1932 and all the other years that the WT have claimed as Armageddon? Were they just mistakes that jehovah made? Why is your bible the only one that uses that name?

 

[Youtellme]

Seems like every other prophesy. adding and subtracting years based on an interpretation(not interpenetration as the spell check suggests...wow) of biblical chronology.

So hopefully, you now know how the date was come up with. (Good English for you!)

 

[1137]

See this page for more info on who the serpent was Revelation 12:9 The great dragon was hurled down--that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him. and read the Barnes' notes at the bottom. 2nd paragraph

First off, this does not change the meaning of the serpent in Genesis. In the Torah, the serpent was simply a metaphor for the Jewish people leaving behind the Egyptian religion. The serpent represented Wadjet and all of Egypt as a whole. This goddess can be seen on headdresses of Pharaohs and gods alike in ancient Egypt as a snake. The story in the Torah does not talk about Satan, and to change the meaning does not make it true.

Ouch, my feelings... olarbaby:Anyway, answer the question

We should all move on to more productive discussions haha.

 

[Youtellme]

In the Torah, the serpent was simply a metaphor for the Jewish people leaving behind the Egyptian religion.

How do you suppose Jesus (a Jew, versed in the Torah) thought of Satan?
John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Barnes Notes: 'He was a murderer from the beginning - That is, from the beginning of the world, or in the first records of him he is thus represented. This refers to the seduction of Adam and Eve.'

Clarkes' Commentary:
He was a murderer from the beginning - It was through him that Adam transgressed; in consequence of which death entered into the world, and slew him and all his posterity. This was the sentiment of the Jews themselves. In Sohar Kadash, the wicked are called, "The children of the old serpent, who slew Adam and all his descendants." See Schoettgen.

Gills Exposition:
...he was a murderer from the beginning; he was not only spoken of from the beginning, as he that should bruise the Messiah's heel, or should compass his death, but he was actually a murderer of Adam and Eve, and of all their posterity, by tempting them to sin, which brought death and ruin upon them;...

Vincents World Studies:
Literally, a manslayer; from ἄνθρωπος, man, and κτείνω, to kill. The epithet is applied to Satan, not with reference to the murder of Abel, but to the fact of his being the author of death to the race.

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary:
He was a murderer from the beginning-The reference is not to Cain (as Locke, De Wette, Alford, &c.), but to Adam [Grotius, Calvin, Meyer, Luthardt, &c.]. The death of the human race, in its widest sense, is ascribed to the murderous seducer of our race.

The serpent represented Wadjet and all of Egypt as a whole.

See the above.

The story in the Torah does not talk about Satan, and to change the meaning does not make it true.

See the above.

 

[InChrist]

Just to add to what I am talking about
Revelation 22:16

English Standard Version (ESV)

16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.”


Followed by

2 Peter 1:19

English Standard Version (ESV)

19 And we have the prophetic word more fully confirmed, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts,



Are you sure that Satan is who you think it is?

“All the angels are called morning stars, collectively (Job 38:4-7), this is not a unique title. Satan is classed among the other morning stars as a created being, an angel. However, he being called the son of the morning separates him from among the other stars. The other angels are called stars, morning stars (symbolically), this title makes the point that he had a higher estate than the others.

After the fall he is no longer called by this title. We have to understand that this being, now called Satan (meaning accuser) was created without flaws, perfect in his being until sin was manifested - which was pride). Satan is spoken of in Ezek. 28:14: “You were the anointed cherub who covers; in Ezek 28:16 he is called the covering cherub. He was the anointed angel day star, the son of the morning that was located “above God’s throne.”

Before his fall the light bearer bore the name of son of the morning, an important star (symbolic) as light giver. Once a shining and beautiful star, after he fell, his glory and position were taken away. Some Biblical scholars believe Jesus took this title upon himself, being called the bright morning star: just as he took the title of son of man later in his incarnation and the last Adam (1 Cor.15:45). Many names unperfected by man are applied to Jesus as He fulfilled the roles and offices of prophet, priest and King perfectly.

Many make the mistake (some on purpose) that Lucifer is the “bright morning star” that the New Testament speaks of. Jesus is then confused with Lucifer because of this term being used.”

“Son of the morning (is exclusively the devils title before he fell) is not the same as the bright morning star (used only for Jesus), which makes the titles difference between Jesus and Satan.”

Excerpts from: Who is the morning Star and the Bright Morning star?
Who is the morning Star and the

 

[fallingblood]

See this page for more info on who the serpent was Revelation 12:9 The great dragon was hurled down--that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him. and read the Barnes' notes at the bottom. 2nd paragraph

This is a much later interpretation of Genesis. More so, it is a Christian interpretation, which bases itself on information that was not present, nor thought of during the time of the writing of Genesis.

There is no evidence that when the book of Genesis was written, that Judaism had an idea of Satan. Satan simply did not exist for them. It was not until a long time later that the idea of Satan surfaced.

So one can not reasonably use Revelations in order to interpret Genesis. They are produced by two different cultures, during two different times, by two different religious ideals. Revelations is seeing things in Genesis that simply do not exist there.

Satan means adversary. It actually calls him The Adversary, giving a definite article. Also, Gill's Exposition of the Bible says this: "...and Satan came also among them; which word signifies an "adversary", as in 1 Kings 11:14 but does not design here a man adversary, as there, or one that envied Job's prosperity, as Saadiah Gaon thinks, but an evil spirit, the old serpent, the devil, as in Revelation 12:9 who is an implacable and bitter enemy to men, especially to Christ and his people; and so has this name from his hatred of them, and opposition to them: Origen (k) observes, that this word, translated into the Greek language, is an "adversary"; but R. Levi (l) derives it from "to decline" or "turn aside"; and so Suidas says (m), Satan, in the Hebrew language, is an apostate...."

Yes, satan (hasatan) in Hebrew means adversary. For the most part (I believe there is only one exception in the Hebrew Bible) it is not a formal word. It is not a proper noun. It does not refer to a specific being.

And if we look at it's use, we see this person described as an adversary changes quite often. It is not one person.

 

[1137]

How do you suppose Jesus (a Jew, versed in the Torah) thought of Satan?
John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Well this may be shocking, but the scripture was not written by Jesus. They were written by people who supposedly were his followers. You are correct in you inference: Christian belief does not logically fit with the fact that Christ was Jewish. What Christ actually said, believed, and preached, good luck finding out after 2,000+ years of his thoughts being perverted. However, it is completely correct that Christ would not believe Satan was the devil, nor that he was the messiah, nor that he was divine, nor most other fundamental Christian beliefs for that matter.

 

[Youtellme]

...So one can not reasonably use Revelations in order to interpret Genesis. They are produced by two different cultures, during two different times, by two different religious ideals....

One author though, no?

...It does not refer to a specific being.

Who tempted Jesus?

 

[Youtellme]

Well this may be shocking, but the scripture was not written by Jesus. They were written by people who supposedly were his followers. You are correct in you inference: Christian belief does not logically fit with the fact that Christ was Jewish. What Christ actually said, believed, and preached, good luck finding out after 2,000+ years of his thoughts being perverted. However, it is completely correct that Christ would not believe Satan was the devil, nor that he was the messiah, nor that he was divine, nor most other fundamental Christian beliefs for that matter.

No scripture was written by Jesus, so what is your point? And if you want to take that approach, you might as well throw out the entire Bible and all it contains, as you could say all of it is made up and tampered with. But, as we are debating a scriptural issue/point we ought to stick with what we have to go from.

 

[outhouse]

One author though, no?

what do you think.?

Who tempted Jesus?

who say's he was tempted?

 

[outhouse]

To understand the the devil concept properly, you have to understand as the more knowledgable people have pointed out, the evolution of the concept.


If you dont follow the evolution of the idea, your lost

It also helps to understand how the concept of hell evolved, why and when.

 

[1137]

No scripture was written by Jesus, so what is your point?

My point is you said "How do you suppose Jesus (a Jew, versed in the Torah) thought of Satan?" and then quoted scripture. Scripture is not the word of Jesus, and that is exactly my point. I could say you said something, but it does not make it so. Watch this:

The president just announced he is homosexual! He told his wife who told this girl who leaked it to the news who called me because I am special. Sounds like a ridiculous idea to take my word, doesn't it...

And if you want to take that approach, you might as well throw out the entire Bible and all it contains, as you could say all of it is made up and tampered with.

Considering that the bold part is fact, I am fine accepting that. Glad that we agree.

But, as we are debating a scriptural issue/point we ought to stick with what we have to go from.

We are debating history, fact, and scripture. Since 2 out of 3 of those support my position, I am fine with it. Sticking with what we have to go from includes history and fact as well as what is written in scripture. And since scripture contradicts history and fact, I am going to consider it unsound, invalid, and therefore illogical in an argument.

 

[Youtellme]

what do you think.?
Well, I'd say it was inspired by God and written by men.



who say's he was tempted?

The Gospels do. Nuff said. Here's one account. Matthew 4:1-11 NIV - Jesus Is Tested in the Wilderness - Bible Gateway

 

[Youtellme]

To understand the the devil concept properly, you have to understand as the more knowledgable people have pointed out, the evolution of the concept.


If you dont follow the evolution of the idea, your lost

It also helps to understand how the concept of hell evolved, why and when.

Going strictly from a scriptural basis, no Devil, no Adam, no Jesus.

 

[outhouse]

Do you think a fast in the desert, could cause hallucinations?

 

[outhouse]

Going strictly from a scriptural basis, no Devil, no Adam, no Jesus.

Not really true.

The concept evolved scripturally