When Does God Start To Burn People In Hell

["Born Eunuch"]

For what it's worth, the Rabbis of the Talmud tell us that this refers to God not automatically forgiving adult children who willingly adopt the same transgressive behaviors that their parents engaged in. However, God always forgives anyone who repents of their actions. And if a parent commits transgressions, which are then rejected and not repeated by their adult children (minors, of course, are not legally liable for their behavior), then the children are certainly not blamed for what their parents did. At least in Judaism (which, let's remember, is the origin of those scriptures), we don't believe in inherited sin of any kind.

Doesn't sound like it's worth alot to me, Sir/Ma'am (NO disrespect or offense meant.)

I heard that some of your Rabbi's say that Jesus is in hell burning in excrement. Do you know anything about any Rabbis saying that?

Peace.



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[Levite]

Doesn't sound like it's worth alot to me, Sir/Ma'am (NO disrespect or offense meant.)

I heard that some of your Rabbi's say that Jesus is in hell burning in excrement. Do you know anything about any Rabbis saying that?

That's a polemical parable dating from a time in the early medieval period, when Christians were vigorously oppressing Jews. It is neither doctrine nor dogma, and I would not presume that any significant number of Jews, historically, have ever believed such a thing, or taught such a thing in earnest-- certainly most Jews today would never have heard of such a story at all, let alone put any stock in it. It's so ludicrously radical, it doesn't even conform to any mainstream eschatological understandings of what afterlife punishment might be like. And it has nothing to do with mainstream and regular Rabbinic interpretation of Torah.

And yes, I am sure you probably are not interested in what the Rabbis teach about Torah. Non-Jews are seldom interested in the Oral Torah, and generally prefer to misinterpret the Written Torah to their own ends, rather than study the texts in the way they were designed to be read and understood. We are seldom surprised by that anymore.

 

[JoStories]

I think that's a rather unfair reading of what I said. I said that at the point someone is able to understand right from wrong, is the point in which said person is accountable for their wrongs. Obviously God will be aware of the contexts of our lives and our moral capacity thereof, and thus judge us appropriately. Should a seven year old warrant Hell, it will be as a result of their freely chosen choice, not because of any one thing they've done or believed.

IMO, no child unable to understand the abstract concepts of hell, and your faith, would be sent to your 'hell' and that is presuming, which is quite a stretch, that there is a hell. I don;t believe in hell, nor in sin. Milton and Dante were the ones who gave the world a visual of what hell would be. Nice fiction, but that is what they both wrote...fiction. Nothing more.

 

[Tumah]

That's a polemical parable dating from a time in the early medieval period, when Christians were vigorously oppressing Jews. It is neither doctrine nor dogma, and I would not presume that any significant number of Jews, historically, have ever believed such a thing, or taught such a thing in earnest-- certainly most Jews today would never have heard of such a story at all, let alone put any stock in it. It's so ludicrously radical, it doesn't even conform to any mainstream eschatological understandings of what afterlife punishment might be like. And it has nothing to do with mainstream and regular Rabbinic interpretation of Torah.

Have you seen .גיטין נז with notes on the pre-censor edition?

 

[Levite]

Have you seen .גיטין נז with notes on the pre-censor edition?

So it's based in an Amoraic drash: same context of oppression, earlier time. Same problematic eschatological issues. Same radicalism in the polemic, etc. Doesn't really make a difference, since the story wasn't apparently actively used until Toledot Yeshu dug it up and embellished it.

 

["Born Eunuch"]

That's a polemical parable dating from a time in the early medieval period, when Christians were vigorously oppressing Jews. It is neither doctrine nor dogma, and I would not presume that any significant number of Jews, historically, have ever believed such a thing, or taught such a thing in earnest-- certainly most Jews today would never have heard of such a story at all, let alone put any stock in it. It's so ludicrously radical, it doesn't even conform to any mainstream eschatological understandings of what afterlife punishment might be like. And it has nothing to do with mainstream and regular Rabbinic interpretation of Torah.

And yes, I am sure you probably are not interested in what the Rabbis teach about Torah. Non-Jews are seldom interested in the Oral Torah, and generally prefer to misinterpret the Written Torah to their own ends, rather than study the texts in the way they were designed to be read and understood. We are seldom surprised by that anymore.

So that saying ("Jesus is in hell burning in excrement") is actually in the Talmud? (Not a rhetorical question; please answer.)

Interesting...

Sorry but if Rabbis come up with things like that, someone is "boiling in excrement" in hell, then I kind of don't want to hear what Rabbis have to say. If God dwells in man, then I have limited need of a Rabbi.

Do Jews believe that YWHW dwells in man?...



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[Levite]

So that saying ("Jesus is in hell burning in excrement") is actually in the Talmud? (Not a rhetorical question; please answer.)

Interesting...

Sorry but if Rabbis come up with things like that, someone is "boiling in excrement" in hell, then I kind of don't want to hear what Rabbis have to say. If God dwells in man, then I have limited need of a Rabbi.

Do Jews believe that YWHW dwells in man?...

It's not something in the Talmud that pertains to interpretation of Torah. The Talmud contains interpretive, legal, wisdom, cultural, and social commentary materials-- among other kinds of knowledge and writings. But yes, it does appear in the Talmud. It is something clearly created in response to a terrible suffering of oppression. Although I reject the theology, eschatology, and vengefulness of the story itself, I see no reason to reject everything the Rabbis wrote over the course of five hundred years because one or two Rabbis at one point during those centuries responded to their oppression with a vengeful polemic.

In any case, I'm not quite sure what "God dwells in man" means. Generally speaking, we believe that the soul is centered around or "powered" by a spark of divine energy. I don't know if that's what you mean, though.

 

["Born Eunuch"]

It's not something in the Talmud that pertains to interpretation of Torah. The Talmud contains interpretive, legal, wisdom, cultural, and social commentary materials-- among other kinds of knowledge and writings. But yes, it does appear in the Talmud. It is something clearly created in response to a terrible suffering of oppression. Although I reject the theology, eschatology, and vengefulness of the story itself, I see no reason to reject everything the Rabbis wrote over the course of five hundred years because one or two Rabbis at one point during those centuries responded to their oppression with a vengeful polemic.

In any case, I'm not quite sure what "God dwells in man" means. Generally speaking, we believe that the soul is centered around or "powered" by a spark of divine energy. I don't know if that's what you mean, though.

...I wonder what the Christians think of that...I wonder do they think that is Jewish hate speech, "Jesus is in hell burning in excrement"...It is in the Talmud though, huh?...Wow...

I was actually meaning anything similar to these Christian Scriptures:

"(16)And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. (17)Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you. (18)And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty." 2 Cor. 6:16-18

Do Jews believe that YHWH can "dwell in" and "walk in" man? and that YHWH is a "Father" of those who believe?



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[Glaurung]

IMO, no child unable to understand the abstract concepts of hell, and your faith, would be sent to your 'hell' and that is presuming, which is quite a stretch, that there is a hell. I don;t believe in hell, nor in sin. Milton and Dante were the ones who gave the world a visual of what hell would be. Nice fiction, but that is what they both wrote...fiction. Nothing more.

I think moderns drastically underestimate the capacity of children for abstract thought.

Regardless, why do you think that telling me what you don't believe is a compelling argument for me to abandon what I believe?

On a final note; do you believe Milton and Dante drew their ideas of Hell independently of any tradition of belief? Think about that.

 

[JoStories]

I think moderns drastically underestimate the capacity of children for abstract thought.

Regardless, why do you think that telling me what you don't believe is a compelling argument for me to abandon what I believe?

On a final note; do you believe Milton and Dante drew their ideas of Hell independently of any tradition of belief? Think about that.

I don't have a care what you believe. I have often defended people's right to believe. But as to your last question, is it so far fetched to believe those 2 authors could conceive of the fictional hell? Think about what Tolkien envisioned with his middle earth and the books he wrote. Or Melville's moby dick, or bradbury's franenheight 451, etc. the imagination can be quite something.

 

[Glaurung]

I don't have a care what you believe.

That wasn't my question.

But as to your last question, is it so far fetched to believe those 2 authors could conceive of the fictional hell?

I give you a depiction from twelfth century from the Hortus Deliciarum.

Spoiler

Obviously the works you mention are fiction, and were intended as such. But unlike LotR, their subject matter deal with aspects of the Christian faith which we don't see as fiction. No, our image of Hell is not a mere invention of renaissance literature. It goes much further back.

 

[JoStories]

That wasn't my question.


I give you a depiction from twelfth century from the Hortus Deliciarum.

Spoiler

Obviously the works you mention are fiction, and were intended as such. But unlike LotR, their subject matter deal with aspects of the Christian faith which we don't see as fiction. No, our image of Hell is not a mere invention of renaissance literature. It goes much further back.

I didn't say it didn't. And have you not heard of the connection of tolkiens writing with chrisitianity? He was part of the Oxford Four. This included Charles Williams, Tolkien, Aldous Huxley and CS Lewis. All four wrote books that had to do with Christianity in some form. And Williams case, it was obvious. Fairly obvious with Lewis as well. The other two were deeper and more convoluted.
As for hell and its source coming from antiquity, of course it does. Many myths have something akin to hell, albeit named differently. There is a very interesting book by Glenn Kleier called the Knowedge of Good and Evil, fiction of course, which is a twist on Dante and Milton. I found it fascinating . Particularly his take on the 7 levels as that related to parts of the CNS.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

I don't think abrahamic god will send a newborn baby to hell that's born to an atheist family.Even though that baby will probably be atheist too.So at what age people are began to send to hell?This is extremely important you know.You have to know when you may get send to hell you will stay there for eternity after all.

All the babies got taken up in The Rapture on the movie "Left Behind" - so that point, at least, is as good as factual in my opinion.

 

[Glaurung]

I didn't say it didn't.

Yes you did.

Milton and Dante were the ones who gave the world a visual of what hell would be. Nice fiction, but that is what they both wrote...fiction. Nothing more.

And

is it so far fetched to believe those 2 authors could conceive of the fictional hell?

As for hell and its source coming from antiquity, of course it does.

That's not what I accused you of denying.

You said that the imagery of Hell in popular imagination was contrived by Milton and Dante. I retort that the visual world of those works are drawn from a very old tradition. Obviously they took liberties for their fiction.

I'm not sure you know what it is you're even trying to argue with me anymore.

 

[Desert Snake]

While she doesn't forbid it, the Church has never insisted on a literalist reading of Scripture. Creationists have done a lot of damage to Christianity by their unreasonable views on the Bible.

...^

So it's soup recipes with a fancy cover.

...^

What?

Creationism is taught in both the OT, and NT. The Bible starts with a creation narrative. Yes, there is metaphor in the Bible, however, if it is completely, subjectively, metaphor, then almost no certain claims can be made about meaning, of verses.

 

[Glaurung]

Creationism is taught in both the OT, and NT. The Bible starts with a creation narrative. Yes, there is metaphor in the Bible, however, if it is completely, subjectively, metaphor, then almost no certain claims can be made about meaning, of verses.

I hold that God is responsible for the existence for the universe and everything within it. I don't hold, nor has orthodox faith ever demanded, that the world was created as is six-thousand years ago within six day period as described by a face-value reading of Genesis. However, such a reading isn't heretical so the Church doesn't forbid it as a personal opinion. (Even if it is highly inadvisable).

It's no surprise that the only ones who absolutely insist on a literal Genesis are fundamentalist 'Bible-only' Protestants mostly constrained to the US reading scripture in a vacuum, divorced from historical Christian tradition.

 

[psychoslice]

The B. B Q probably happens when all the self righteous people set around for their big meal, lusting over how much they were so perfect, and everyone else wasn't, how bloody sick is that.

 

[wizanda]

So at what age people are began to send to hell?

This world we live in, is the top floor of hell (Gehenna). Not sure when it will be set fire to; yet when the sun explodes would be very likely.

 

[Desert Snake]

I hold that God is responsible for the existence for the universe and everything within it. I don't hold, nor has orthodox faith ever demanded, that the world was created as is six-thousand years ago within six day period as described by a face-value reading of Genesis. However, such a reading isn't heretical so the Church doesn't forbid it as a personal opinion. (Even if it is highly inadvisable).

It's no surprise that the only ones who absolutely insist on a literal Genesis are fundamentalist 'Bible-only' Protestants mostly constrained to the US reading scripture in a vacuum, divorced from historical Christian tradition.

"Bible only"?
Anyways, where did you get this information from, and what do mean by ''orthodox faith''?

 

[rusra02]

I don't think abrahamic god will send a newborn baby to hell that's born to an atheist family.Even though that baby will probably be atheist too.So at what age people are began to send to hell?This is extremely important you know.You have to know when you may get send to hell you will stay there for eternity after all.

The Bible does not teach that the true God torments persons in a fiery hell. That is a doctrine taught by pagan religions and by those falsely claiming to be Christians. ( Romans 6:23)