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When I die, what's it all about?

BruceDLimber

Well-Known Member
There most assuredly IS a Next Life, and it's far more wonderful than we can imagine now!

I quote the Baha'i scriptures:

"Bahá'u'lláh and &'Abdu'l-Bahá regard the descriptions of Heaven and Hell given in some of the older religious writings as symbolic, like the Biblical story of the Creation, and not as literally true. According to Them, Heaven is the state of perfection, and Hell that of imperfection; Heaven is harmony with God's will and with our fellows, and Hell is the want of such harmony; Heaven is the condition of spiritual life, and Hell that of spiritual death. A man may be either in Heaven or in Hell while still in the body. The joys of Heaven are spiritual joys; and the pains of Hell consist in the deprivation of these joys."
―Baha'u'llah and the New Era pp. 190-1

From the Baha'i scriptures:

“Thou hast asked Me whether man, as apart from the Prophets of God and His chosen ones, will retain, after his physical death, the self-same individuality, personality, consciousness, and understanding that characterize his life in this world. If this should be the case, how is it, thou hast observed, that whereas such slight injuries to his mental faculties as fainting and severe illness deprive him of his understanding and consciousness, his death, which must involve the decomposition of his body and the dissolution of its elements, is powerless to destroy that understanding and extinguish that consciousness? How can any one imagine that man's consciousness and personality will be maintained, when the very instruments necessary to their existence and function will have completely disintegrated?

“Know thou that the soul of man is exalted above, and is independent of all infirmities of body or mind. That a sick person showeth signs of weakness is due to the hindrances that interpose themselves between his soul and his body, for the soul itself remaineth unaffected by any bodily ailments. Consider the light of the lamp. Though an external object may interfere with its radiance, the light itself continueth to shine with undiminished power. In like manner, every malady afflicting the body of man is an impediment that preventeth the soul from manifesting its inherent might and power. When it leaveth the body, however, it will evince such ascendancy, and reveal such influence as no force on earth can equal. Every pure, every refined and sanctified soul will be endowed with tremendous power, and shall rejoice with exceeding gladness.”

-- (Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, pp. 153-154)


“And now concerning thy question whether human souls continue to be conscious one of another after their separation from the body. Know thou that the souls of the people of Baha, who have entered and been established within the Crimson Ark, shall associate and commune intimately one with another, and shall be so closely associated in their lives, their aspirations, their aims and strivings as to be even as one soul. They are indeed the ones who are well-informed, who are keen-sighted, and who are endued with understanding. Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the All-Knowing, the All-Wise.

“The people of Baha, who are the inmates of the Ark of God, are, one and all, well aware of one another's state and condition, and are united in the bonds of intimacy and fellowship. Such a state, however, must depend upon their faith and their conduct. They that are of the same grade and station are fully aware of one another's capacity, character, accomplishments and merits. They that are of a lower grade, however, are incapable of comprehending adequately the station, or of estimating the merits, of those that rank above them. Each shall receive his share from thy Lord. Blessed is the man that hath turned his face towards God, and walked steadfastly in His love, until his soul hath winged its flight unto God, the Sovereign Lord of all, the Most Powerful, the Ever-Forgiving, the All-Merciful.

“The souls of the infidels, however, shall -- and to this I bear witness -- when breathing their last be made aware of the good things that have escaped them, and shall bemoan their plight, and shall humble themselves before God. They shall continue doing so after the separation of their souls from their bodies.

“It is clear and evident that all men shall, after their physical death, estimate the worth of their deeds, and realize all that their hands have wrought.”

-- (Baha'u'llah, Ibid., pp. 169-171)


“And now concerning thy question regarding the soul of man and its survival after death. Know thou of a truth that the soul, after its separation from the body, will continue to progress until it attaineth the presence of God, in a state and condition which neither the revolution of ages and centuries, nor the changes and chances of this world, can alter. It will endure as long as the Kingdom of God, His sovereignty, His dominion and power will endure. It will manifest the signs of God and His attributes, and will reveal His loving kindness and bounty. The movement of My Pen is stilled when it attempteth to befittingly describe the loftiness and glory of so exalted a station. The honor with which the Hand of Mercy will invest the soul is such as no tongue can adequately reveal, nor any other earthly agency describe. Blessed is the soul which, at the hour of its separation from the body, is sanctified from the vain imaginings of the peoples of the world. Such a soul liveth and moveth in accordance with the Will of its Creator, and entereth the all-highest Paradise. The Maids of Heaven, inmates of the loftiest mansions, will circle around it, and the Prophets of God and His chosen ones will seek its companionship. With them that soul will freely converse, and will recount unto them that which it hath been made to endure in the path of God, the Lord of all worlds. If any man be told that which hath been ordained for such a soul in the worlds of God, the Lord of the throne on high and of earth below, his whole being will instantly blaze out in his great longing to attain that most exalted, that sanctified and resplendent station.... The nature of the soul after death can never be described, nor is it meet and permissible to reveal its whole character to the eyes of men. The Prophets and Messengers of God have been sent down for the sole purpose of guiding mankind to the straight Path of Truth. The purpose underlying Their revelation hath been to educate all men, that they may, at the hour of death, ascend, in the utmost purity and sanctity and with absolute detachment, to the throne of the Most High.”

-- (Baha'u'llah, Ibid., pp. 155-157)

"Know that, although the human soul has existed on the earth for prolonged times and ages, yet it is phenomenal. As it is a divine sign, when once it has come into existence, it is eternal. The spirit of man has a beginning, but it has no end; it continues eternally."

-- Some Answered Questions, p. 151
[continues]
 
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BruceDLimber

Well-Known Member
[continued]
“And now concerning thy question whether human souls continue to be conscious one of another after their separation from the body. Know thou that the souls of the people of Baha, who have entered and been established within the Crimson Ark, shall associate and commune intimately one with another, and shall be so closely associated in their lives, their aspirations, their aims and strivings as to be even as one soul. They are indeed the ones who are well-informed, who are keen-sighted, and who are endued with understanding. Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the All-Knowing, the All-Wise.

“The people of Baha, who are the inmates of the Ark of God, are, one and all, well aware of one another's state and condition, and are united in the bonds of intimacy and fellowship. Such a state, however, must depend upon their faith and their conduct. They that are of the same grade and station are fully aware of one another's capacity, character, accomplishments and merits. They that are of a lower grade, however, are incapable of comprehending adequately the station, or of estimating the merits, of those that rank above them. Each shall receive his share from thy Lord. Blessed is the man that hath turned his face towards God, and walked steadfastly in His love, until his soul hath winged its flight unto God, the Sovereign Lord of all, the Most Powerful, the Ever-Forgiving, the All-Merciful.

“The souls of the infidels, however, shall -- and to this I bear witness -- when breathing their last be made aware of the good things that have escaped them, and shall bemoan their plight, and shall humble themselves before God. They shall continue doing so after the separation of their souls from their bodies.

“It is clear and evident that all men shall, after their physical death, estimate the worth of their deeds, and realize all that their hands have wrought.”

-- (Baha'u'llah, Ibid., pp. 169-171)
[continues]
 
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BruceDLimber

Well-Known Member
[continued]
“And now concerning thy question regarding the soul of man and its survival after death. Know thou of a truth that the soul, after its separation from the body, will continue to progress until it attaineth the presence of God, in a state and condition which neither the revolution of ages and centuries, nor the changes and chances of this world, can alter. It will endure as long as the Kingdom of God, His sovereignty, His dominion and power will endure. It will manifest the signs of God and His attributes, and will reveal His loving kindness and bounty. The movement of My Pen is stilled when it attempteth to befittingly describe the loftiness and glory of so exalted a station. The honor with which the Hand of Mercy will invest the soul is such as no tongue can adequately reveal, nor any other earthly agency describe. Blessed is the soul which, at the hour of its separation from the body, is sanctified from the vain imaginings of the peoples of the world. Such a soul liveth and moveth in accordance with the Will of its Creator, and entereth the all-highest Paradise. The Maids of Heaven, inmates of the loftiest mansions, will circle around it, and the Prophets of God and His chosen ones will seek its companionship. With them that soul will freely converse, and will recount unto them that which it hath been made to endure in the path of God, the Lord of all worlds. If any man be told that which hath been ordained for such a soul in the worlds of God, the Lord of the throne on high and of earth below, his whole being will instantly blaze out in his great longing to attain that most exalted, that sanctified and resplendent station.... The nature of the soul after death can never be described, nor is it meet and permissible to reveal its whole character to the eyes of men. The Prophets and Messengers of God have been sent down for the sole purpose of guiding mankind to the straight Path of Truth. The purpose underlying Their revelation hath been to educate all men, that they may, at the hour of death, ascend, in the utmost purity and sanctity and with absolute detachment, to the throne of the Most High.”

-- (Baha'u'llah, Ibid., pp. 155-157)
[continues]
 
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BruceDLimber

Well-Known Member
[continued]
"When they [men] are delivered through the light of faith from the darkness of these vices, and become illuminated with the radiance of the sun of reality, and ennobled with all the virtues, they esteem this the greatest reward, and they know it to be the true paradise. In the same way they consider that the spiritual punishment ... is to be subjected to the world of nature, to be veiled from God, to be brutal and ignorant, to fall into carnal lusts, to be absorbed in animal frailties, to be characterized with dark qualities ... these are the greatest punishments and tortures....

"...The rewards of the other world are the perfections and the peace obtained in the spiritual worlds after leaving this world ... the spiritual graces, the various spiritual gifts in the Kingdom of God, the gaining of the desires of the heart and the soul, and the meeting of God in the world of eternity. In the same way the punishments of the other world ... consist in being deprived of the special divine blessings and the absolute bounties, and falling into the lowest degrees of existence. He who is deprived of these divine favours, although he continues after death, is considered as dead by the people of truth.

"The wealth of the other world is nearness to God. Consequently it is certain that those who are near the Divine Court are allowed to intercede, and this intercession is approved by God....

"It is even possible that the condition of those who have died in sin and unbelief may become changed; that is to say, they may become the object of pardon through the bounty of God, not through His justice; for bounty is giving without desert, and justice is giving what is deserved. As we have the power to pray for these souls here, so likewise we shall possess the same power in the other world, which is the Kingdom of God.... Therefore in that world also they can make progress. As here they can receive light by their supplications, there also they can plead for forgiveness, and receive light through entreaties and supplications.

"Both before and after putting off this material form, there is progress in perfection, but not in state.... There is no other being higher than a perfect man. But man when he has reached this state can still make progress in perfections but not in state, because there is no state higher than that of a perfect man to which he can transfer himself. He only progresses in the state of humanity, for the human perfections are infinite. Thus however learned a man may be, we can imagine one more learned.

"Hence, as the perfections of humanity are endless, man can also make progress in perfections after leaving this world."
―Some Answered Questions, pp. 260-274 passim.
 
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ellenjanuary

Well-Known Member
If in fact I believed that there were no consequences to my actions in this life, and that it is all at the most mystical, or just fades to black, than what is the point? Why works so damn hard at anything?

Because you must. That is a dictate of your integrity.

My morality is intolerant to the belief of causality, that fear of consequence dictates a clear moral imperative; it does not. It allows for moral ambiguity and diminishes clarity of conception... yikes. Get me away from the pulpit... :D

Lemme get this straight: you value your family so highly, that life must have purpose; you see this purpose as best expressed in the terms of God of the Bible... why, then, this other stuff?

I know god, I know Bible; and, I hate to say it, but you got "other stuff." It may be unkind, but that "other stuff" sounds like "brainwashing," like "programming;" like watching the 700Club for a thousand straight hours, and getting a Revelation...

No bs... some simple vocabulary, ready?

Enlightenment

Sounds just like, to make light, no? As in, not heavy. As in, god as light. As in, rain alla day, cannae wash away, this smile.

This "other stuff," is heavy. That should be your first clue, it ain't about god. That is a worldly agenda, "brainwashing," saving the souls of others... I mean, whaddya find here? Buncha no-account atheists, talking smack about your beliefs; and what happens? Heavy, becomes heavier. It's some kinda test... You wanna help them, but they scoff at you; and you only wanna help, because if you do...

God will make it right for you and yours!

Right? Absolutely, undeniably; wrong. That is not moral imperative, that is moral ambiguity.

Here's the way god calls the play: you already right, you and yours, regardless. For alla you, alla yours, all of eternity. Now you "with god," you just rack up the bonus points...

Why must you work so hard? Because your integrity demands it. Because you have overcome adversity; you have made something bright and beautiful in a horrible, sinful world, and by golly you are going to hold on.

Did a book do that, or did you do that? For every second of "good" you think come outta that book; I can counter with "minute" of video, people speaking outta that book, alla kinds of other-than-good. Your task will just get heavier... that ain't god.

God is finding the light within. Taking the one single thing you know is fact - the beauty of your family - from that, building a framework that shines this light outward; that let's people see - for a fact - god ain't to be misread outta no book. That ain't heavy. When you start with truth, with beauty, with love; work your way outwards - from what god has given you within - ain't no fear of no false prophet. There ain't no fear of the eighty zillion steps you may take wrong; which they preach into you - when you take a single step with god.

Don't listen to me, listen to a single line of scripture: Luke 6:41

And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?


I ain't know "Biblical scholar," but I know Bible. Anybody with an agenda, can twist scripture to forward their cause; think god don't know this? That's why these gems get dropped inna mix. Let's be honest about what it says; and what I must say, speaking to you through scripture.

The Beam is in my eye, as I seek to correct your mote... the Beam. I don't take that beam outta there, to repair the mote, as scripture suggests; I keep that puppy in there! That way, I know that I can always be wrong; that way I learn something of value beyond religious debate, that when I seek to redress another, I best make dang sure of who I am. Or that other man need only laugh at me, remind me; who has the mote, who has the Beam.

Yet, this beam; it is dang light... how you think that works? ;)
 

ellenjanuary

Well-Known Member
The nature of the soul after death can never be described, nor is it meet and permissible to reveal its whole character to the eyes of men

Ya did it again, Bruce! Alla them words, smashed against the rocky shoal of this one sentence.

I like you... I just don't like Baha'i... maybe this is why. ;)
 

Looncall

Well-Known Member
No it is definitely not enough. That to me is torture. It is love un realized, because it is temporary. It causes me severe pain to think we won't go on forever. So I do certainly enjoy them now, as much as I can.

Are you being greedy? You have this amazing universe to live in and amazing people to live in it with. Why seek to augment it with fantasies?
 

Vendetta

"Oscar the grouch"
For the Bahai's and any other person of faith: has any of you for sure know there is an afterlife and if so, is your only proof in doctrine?
 

ellenjanuary

Well-Known Member
For the Bahai's and any other person of faith: has any of you for sure know there is an afterlife and if so, is your only proof in doctrine?

Knowing "fer sure" would make it boring. ;)

My sense of the Eternal is backed by conservation law and entropy. ;)
 

Tathagata

Freethinker
You say you have studied Buddhism and couldn't find the answer? You must not've looked deep enough then!

Also, I recommend the works of Krishnamurti (preferably the Pocket Krishnamurti) who actually explains how to deal with death with no afterlife.


.
 

Vendetta

"Oscar the grouch"
Oh, well it simply lies with the fact the bible so closely mirrors my experiences, and how I feel about my experiences, that I conclude it is not a coinicidence. If not a coincidence, than the idea of God becomes real to me, but as has already been pointed out, this is not something that can be demonstrated outwardly for all to see, so is therefor subjective.

Example, we all know the good ol story of the tree of good and evil. We all know the story in Ecclisiastis, that John Lennon so wonderfully made into a song. There are many things familiar in the bible to us that we take for granted. However when you go through life and commit deliberate acts of evil or deliberate acts of good, the resulting experience is such that we can begin to see the true nature of humans and their responses. If we do this enough a pattern begins to form. When patterns form, predictablity forms, and when predictabillity forms, we now have something measurable. Not proof, or guarentees, but patterns that don't very too often.
These patterns of human behaviour are what I see reflected in the bible more so than anywhere else. Also, reflected in my life are the same experiences and responses. The logic behind the teachings in the bible, and the examples of human experience in the bible, make it absolutely one of a kind. Not to many dispute that, even if they don't believe in the divinity of the bible.

So the only reaons I would give credence to God given meaning to my experiences, is because of the way the bible reflected my life. Remember I have looked elsewhere, and looked into the bible eventually, just to make sure I hadn't missed something, and there I have been ever since.

Also, know that I had these views on life long before I picked up the bible. Which I suppose is why it was unnerving to be staring at something that mirrored my own judgements about my human experience. Does that make sense?

Knowing "fer sure" would make it boring. ;)

My sense of the Eternal is backed by conservation law and entropy. ;)

Knowing for sure is boring to you but for me if I get my head blown off in combat I just want to know if im just going to be a headless corpse or luminous being (Using Yoda voice)
 

Tathagata

Freethinker
Knowing "fer sure" would make it boring. ;)

My sense of the Eternal is backed by conservation law and entropy. ;)

The Law of Conservation doesn't guarantee that the universe is eternal. It only guarantees that the matter in the universe can't be destroyed.

This universe will not last forever because it will either end in a heat death or it will collapse, the Big Crunch.


.
 

Kriya Yogi

Dharma and Love for God
There is a meaning to life, it is to help yourself and others to become more spiritual. At the same time to enjoy the infinitude of God's outward manifestations. If you leave the earth more spiritual then when you entered and have helped others to be more happy and closer to God then you have had a productive life. The destiny for everyone is to become closer to God and to eventually be so engrossed in God that nothing can shake your inner peace and happiness. There in lies your freedom.
 
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ellenjanuary

Well-Known Member
The Law of Conservation doesn't guarantee that the universe is eternal. It only guarantees that the matter in the universe can't be destroyed.

This universe will not last forever because it will either end in a heat death or it will collapse, the Big Crunch.


.

I'm more thinking in terms of burning a disk. That the information stored walking the path of a life lived considered in reflection represents an increase in entropy. To erase the disk would also increase entropy, so, why? ;)

And that the quantum foam of empty space has the potential energy equivalent of a trillion solar masses per cubic centimeter (or some similar outrageous figure), meaning that the Celestial Hard Drive is far from filled, another consideration that the path of ellen never need be lost. ;)
 

ellenjanuary

Well-Known Member
Knowing for sure is boring to you but for me if I get my head blown off in combat I just want to know if im just going to be a headless corpse or luminous being (Using Yoda voice)

But anticipation of luminosity may result in premature decapitation through rash action, one that may decrease the efficiency of your platoon. ;)
 

Where Is God

Creator
Think about the animals! The Bible says that animals may not be allowed into heaven because they have no souls; but neither do we. Walk outside. What do you see? Birds, animals, trees. We are a part of nature just as these things. What separates us from them is our self-conscious mind. The only other self-conscious animal is the bottle-nosed dolphin (that I am aware of). If you believe they die for nothing, you have to believe we do too.
 
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no-body

Well-Known Member
Also, I recommend the works of Krishnamurti (preferably the Pocket Krishnamurti) who actually explains how to deal with death with no afterlife.


.

Has he really commented on the afterlife? I'm kind of dubious. Krishnamurti's answers usually will be to find out for yourself, he's so noncommittal about everything.
 

Tathagata

Freethinker
Has he really commented on the afterlife?

"And to go into this question of what is death, what lies beyond death. Whether there is reincarnation, whether there is a resurrect for all that, becomes rather meaningless if you don't know how to live. If the human being knows how to live, in this world, without conflict, then death has quite a different meaning." -- Krishnamurti

"Old age becomes a problem because we have not lived rightly in our youth, in our middle age. We have never lived at all because we are frightened. We are frightened of living and frightened of dying. And as we grow old everything happens to us. We are going to find out what it means to die, knowing that the organism comes to an end, and knowing that the mind, in its despair of coming to an end, will inevitably seek a hope, a comfort in some theory of resurrection or reincarnation." -- Krishnamurti


I'm kind of dubious. Krishnamurti's answers usually will be to find out for yourself, he's so noncommittal about everything.

Not sure what you mean by that, but yes he says that you have to find out for yourself, however, that doesn't mean that will stop him from teaching his philosophies.


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