God could continuously reveal in accordance with language updates. And I'm a monotheist FYI
ETA and your accusations of being dogmatic and religious are just projection.
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When "Inerrant" Really Means "Full Of Errors"
- Thread starter SeekingAllTruth
- Start date
ETA and your accusations of being dogmatic and religious are just projection.
The island city was destroyed, by Alexander the Great in 332 BC. And it was never rebuilt to match its former glory. (The prophecy implies people would still be in the area after its destruction: Ezekiel says it would be ‘a place to stretch out fishing nets’.)
Excerpt from “Lands of the Bible”, by J.W. McGarvey, published 1880, on pg.529:
“A 19th-century traveler commented on what was left of ancient Tyre in his day, saying: “Of the original Tyre known to Solomon and the prophets of Israel, not a vestige remains except in its rock-cut sepulchres on the mountain sides, and in foundation walls . . . Even the island, which Alexander the Great, in his siege of the city, converted into a cape by filling up the water between it and the mainland, contains no distinguishable relics of an earlier period than that of the Crusades. The modern town, all of which is comparatively new, occupies the northern half of what was once the island, while nearly all the remainder of the surface is covered with undistinguishable ruins.” “
Further information on prophecies, including Tyre:
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101989039
Excerpt from “Lands of the Bible”, by J.W. McGarvey, published 1880, on pg.529:
“A 19th-century traveler commented on what was left of ancient Tyre in his day, saying: “Of the original Tyre known to Solomon and the prophets of Israel, not a vestige remains except in its rock-cut sepulchres on the mountain sides, and in foundation walls . . . Even the island, which Alexander the Great, in his siege of the city, converted into a cape by filling up the water between it and the mainland, contains no distinguishable relics of an earlier period than that of the Crusades. The modern town, all of which is comparatively new, occupies the northern half of what was once the island, while nearly all the remainder of the surface is covered with undistinguishable ruins.” “
Further information on prophecies, including Tyre:
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101989039
firedragon
Veteran Member
Okay. So tell me, how could God "continuously reveal in accordance with language updates"? Lets take English as an example. English changed so drastically in a few decades. Few centuries ago, there were vast differences in certain things.
So God should have made a revelation in the Shakespearean time and another one a few decades ago, and another one right now, and maybe more all the time?
I don't see any difficulty for God to do such a thing whatsoever.
firedragon
Veteran Member
1. So you claim that what is not difficult must be done by God?
2. Also, lets say God sends the same revelation three times in 300 years, dont you think one might read the older one and misunderstand it because the language has changed? E.g. Those days, awful meant the opposite of what we think awful means now. The exact opposite.
So what do you think?
In my opinion, the Bible does not contain errors.
I didn't read the thread, maybe others have replied already.
Your last point is easy, I think.
God never changes in that he listens to his people. There is dialogue.
When they say that something really needs to be changed, he changes it, as in Ezekiel 18:20.
Tyre? That sounds strange indeed.
It was 75% destroyed, you say? instead of 100%?
If it's inhabited by another people now, that may count as having replaced its spirit maybe... however I'm not quite sure about this one.
The atonement lasting forever?
Actually - there might be a third temple, in my opinion. At least Messianic Jews claim there will be. End-Time Prophecy: Why is the Third Temple so Important? | Messianic Bible
In my opinion, we might not be able to clear up one and every purported contradiction.
Note that evolutionist scientists can't either.
To the best of my knowledge, there are some things that just don't make sense, however scientists say that they may solve the issue later. They still don't have a clue how life first formed in that primordial soup (I hole I'm using the right terminology here), if I am informed right
This is completely fine, I think.
But I want the same threashold for Bible interpretation, too.
Some Christians just don't have a clue how some particular prophecies may be resolved.
That's how it is.
Christianity is still searching for answers.
Hi SAT,It's no secret that God's "inerrant" word is riddled with errors. One can google "Bible contradictions" and come up with with pages and pages of results outlining hundreds if not thousands of errors and contradictions. Whole books on the subject are available on Amazon. Ken Ham wrote a two-volume rebuttal to the most common ones and his treatise doesn't even scratch the surface. I looked at one site and thought I saw 5000. Turns out it was 50,000. It's true that most are of a minor nature, but quite a few--perhaps 500 by my reckoning are egregious enough to be considered serious enough to question the Bible's veracity.
I recently had a short discussion with a member in here about Leviticus 16:34
34 “And this shall be a statute forever for you: Atonement is to be made once a year for all the sins of the Israelites.”
I questioned, "Why did God say the animal sacrifice is to last forever when He knew He'd be sending His son Jesus in 1200 years or so to replace. I would have suspected God would have said, "This statute is only temporary until I send a more perfect sacrifice in the form of my divine son." The truth is IMHO when the scribes wrote out this passage they had absolutely no idea a civilization called Romans would conquer them and destroy Jerusalem and Herod's Temple in 70 CE, therefore they were not in communication with Yahweh when they wrote this ordinance any more than I am in communication with the man in the moon. IOW, this whole atonement thing is a result of a custom that likely evolved over many centuries rather than being handed down by Yahweh all at once.
These errors are why the discipline, apologetics was invented in the first place--to counter with subterfuge or any other means at their disposal to try to make right what was clearly wrong. I can give a few examples of this suberfuge:
“Your house and your kingdom will endure forever before me; your throne will be established forever”
Obviously David's throne and kingdom didn't last forever. It ended when the Babylonians marched into Israel. Clever apologists say however that David's throne didn't really end because one day Jesus (who has been set up to be David's offspring via Matthew's and Luke's completely different genealogies for Jesus) will return to earth to claim the throne and rule from it. How this negates the tens of thousands years Israel is and will be without David's house and kingdom until then is a complete mystery to me.
Another is Ezekiel's prophecy that Tyre would be completely destroyed and never rebuilt. Tyre still exists today. You can visit it (when the pandemic is over). Clever apologists say, however that Ezekiel was speaking of the city's original site. The site where Tyre sits today is a different site. In actuality Tyre consisted of two cities, a coastal town and an adjacent island town off the coast. Nebuchadnezzar did indeed destroy the coastal town but he wasn't able to anything to the island. Later Alexander the Great built a bridge to reach the island but only managed to destroy half of it. So the prophecy failed in two ways.: it wasn't completely destroyed and, contrary to what God says,
"You will never be rebuilt, for I the LORD have spoken, declares the Sovereign LORD" --Ezekiel 26:14
Tyre thrives today completely rebuilt. For those who doubt here is a pic of it.
Yahweh was wrong obviously.
Anyway, here is one of the more than 500 most egregious mistakes that IMHO cannot be reconciled even by the most stalwart apologists:
For I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation. —Exodus 20:5
The child will not share the guilt of the parent ---Ezekiel 18:20
For I am the Lord; I change not. —Malachi 3:6
Really, God? You changed from commanding punishment up to the 4th generation for the father's sin, but 600 years later you now say no punishment will be visited on the son. I wonder how apologists square those two verses without contradicting Malachi 3:6.
This post is already too long. I will introduce other egregious errors as the thread lengthens, providing apologists are brave enough to address the things I said in this OP.
I didn't read the thread, maybe others have replied already.
Your last point is easy, I think.
God never changes in that he listens to his people. There is dialogue.
When they say that something really needs to be changed, he changes it, as in Ezekiel 18:20.
Tyre? That sounds strange indeed.
It was 75% destroyed, you say? instead of 100%?
If it's inhabited by another people now, that may count as having replaced its spirit maybe... however I'm not quite sure about this one.
The atonement lasting forever?
Actually - there might be a third temple, in my opinion. At least Messianic Jews claim there will be. End-Time Prophecy: Why is the Third Temple so Important? | Messianic Bible
In my opinion, we might not be able to clear up one and every purported contradiction.
Note that evolutionist scientists can't either.
To the best of my knowledge, there are some things that just don't make sense, however scientists say that they may solve the issue later. They still don't have a clue how life first formed in that primordial soup (I hole I'm using the right terminology here), if I am informed right
This is completely fine, I think.
But I want the same threashold for Bible interpretation, too.
Some Christians just don't have a clue how some particular prophecies may be resolved.
That's how it is.
Christianity is still searching for answers.
Jedster
Flying through space
exchemist
Veteran Member
It's no secret that God's "inerrant" word is riddled with errors. One can google "Bible contradictions" and come up with with pages and pages of results outlining hundreds if not thousands of errors and contradictions. Whole books on the subject are available on Amazon. Ken Ham wrote a two-volume rebuttal to the most common ones and his treatise doesn't even scratch the surface. I looked at one site and thought I saw 5000. Turns out it was 50,000. It's true that most are of a minor nature, but quite a few--perhaps 500 by my reckoning are egregious enough to be considered serious enough to question the Bible's veracity.
I recently had a short discussion with a member in here about Leviticus 16:34
34 “And this shall be a statute forever for you: Atonement is to be made once a year for all the sins of the Israelites.”
I questioned, "Why did God say the animal sacrifice is to last forever when He knew He'd be sending His son Jesus in 1200 years or so to replace. I would have suspected God would have said, "This statute is only temporary until I send a more perfect sacrifice in the form of my divine son." The truth is IMHO when the scribes wrote out this passage they had absolutely no idea a civilization called Romans would conquer them and destroy Jerusalem and Herod's Temple in 70 CE, therefore they were not in communication with Yahweh when they wrote this ordinance any more than I am in communication with the man in the moon. IOW, this whole atonement thing is a result of a custom that likely evolved over many centuries rather than being handed down by Yahweh all at once.
These errors are why the discipline, apologetics was invented in the first place--to counter with subterfuge or any other means at their disposal to try to make right what was clearly wrong. I can give a few examples of this suberfuge:
“Your house and your kingdom will endure forever before me; your throne will be established forever”
Obviously David's throne and kingdom didn't last forever. It ended when the Babylonians marched into Israel. Clever apologists say however that David's throne didn't really end because one day Jesus (who has been set up to be David's offspring via Matthew's and Luke's completely different genealogies for Jesus) will return to earth to claim the throne and rule from it. How this negates the tens of thousands years Israel is and will be without David's house and kingdom until then is a complete mystery to me.
Another is Ezekiel's prophecy that Tyre would be completely destroyed and never rebuilt. Tyre still exists today. You can visit it (when the pandemic is over). Clever apologists say, however that Ezekiel was speaking of the city's original site. The site where Tyre sits today is a different site. In actuality Tyre consisted of two cities, a coastal town and an adjacent island town off the coast. Nebuchadnezzar did indeed destroy the coastal town but he wasn't able to anything to the island. Later Alexander the Great built a bridge to reach the island but only managed to destroy half of it. So the prophecy failed in two ways.: it wasn't completely destroyed and, contrary to what God says,
"You will never be rebuilt, for I the LORD have spoken, declares the Sovereign LORD" --Ezekiel 26:14
Tyre thrives today completely rebuilt. For those who doubt here is a pic of it.
Yahweh was wrong obviously.
Anyway, here is one of the more than 500 most egregious mistakes that IMHO cannot be reconciled even by the most stalwart apologists:
For I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation. —Exodus 20:5
The child will not share the guilt of the parent ---Ezekiel 18:20
For I am the Lord; I change not. —Malachi 3:6
Really, God? You changed from commanding punishment up to the 4th generation for the father's sin, but 600 years later you now say no punishment will be visited on the son. I wonder how apologists square those two verses without contradicting Malachi 3:6.
This post is already too long. I will introduce other egregious errors as the thread lengthens, providing apologists are brave enough to address the things I said in this OP.
There is a long Wiki article on the subject of biblical inerrancy: Biblical inerrancy - Wikipedia
As so often, this concept has different usage in different branches of Christianity.
The formulation used by the Catholic church (2nd Vatican Council) is narrow: "The books of Scripture must be acknowledged as teaching solidly, faithfully and without error that truth which God wanted put into sacred writings for the sake of salvation." That does not mean that every word in the bible is to be taken as being without error, only the spiritual messages conveyed for the good of mankind.
The people that tie themselves in knots over inerrancy are the sola scriptura literalists, who have to find a contorted way to maintain the position that there are no statements in the bible that conflict with one another or that fly in the face of reason or science. This is clearly absurd. The bible was written by a range of different people, living at different times, with different conceptions of the world and society.
Not all Christians are sola scriptura literalists.
1. No, but if God cared as much about what you think as the members of religion seem to think God does then God should.
2. This would not be a problem if God where to explain in the updated revelation that the differences are due to the meaning of words changing. Better still God could reveal to all individually, then we would have no need of outdated records whatsoever.
firedragon
Veteran Member
By that you mean he should have cared of your whims? Dont speak for others who you dont even try to get.
You missed the point. Strange you seem to miss the point.
So do you think that God should send three books that says the same thing in the same language with the updated words and then make the older copies all over the world vanish so that no one would get confused?
About revealing individually, just like an evangelical missionary who has dogmatic faith and refuses to engage a question directly you brought this extra topic without addressing the question on the topic you yourself created within another topic.
PruePhillip
Well-Known Member
WHO says the bible is 'inerrant'?
It's written for many different reasons
It's given us non-spiritual history to ensure it remains a 'national book' even to generations who disbelieve it.
It's acts as a 'strong delusion' to those who mock it.
It gives us amazing insights into history and pre-history (think Gen 1) but in figurative language
It gave amazingly accurate insights into the Messiah and the fate of the Jewish people - to this day
It reaches us with profound depth (Matt 5,6,,7)
etc..
look, that's her translation.
In Hebrew, the "closed" is not there.
Instead, it goes like this:
I went down, the earth its bars behind me forever.
Jonah 2:6 Interlinear: To the cuttings of mountains I have come down, The earth, her bars are behind me to the age. And Thou bringest up from the pit my life, O Jehovah my God.
So, her translation added the closed. (So does Biblehub in the link, however, they do indicate that it's added).
So, if you really want to be precise, you could also add a verb in another form like "it would close".
Nope, it is about fairness, particularly if God is going to throw a person into boiling oil etc for disbelief.
If you agree with me that God doesn't seem to care much what people believe then we are making progress.
Nope I understood your point quite well, it is an irrelevant point as if God where to reveal to all individually no one would have any doubt about what God meant, and if there were older books we could simply enquire directly from God as to what a word meant at one time or another if we even had an interest in dead dusty books when we had access to live revelation.
ETA and aside from being projection your accusations of dogmatic faith are just preaching.
firedragon
Veteran Member
You mean you!
If you understood, you didnt address it. Not yet. You area creating a strawman by yourself. Why? Too dogmatic to even analyse?
So are you saying that the word "forever" in the Bible really does mean forever? Because then you have the problem posed in the OP about Leviticus 16:34
34 “And this shall be a statute forever for you: Atonement is to be made once a year for all the sins of the Israelites.”
With the contradiction being why did God say the animal sacrifice is to last forever when He knew He'd be sending His son Jesus in 1200 years or so to replace the sacrifice?
Yes I disbelieve in the Quranic God
Let's try this one last time. It looks to me like you said there will be confusion caused by the words in older books.
My contention is that why would we be confused when God could explain the meaning of the words in the older books to us individually assuming we even still had interest in outdated books in preference to live revelation.
Your response to this just looks like so much ad-hominem, projection and preachiness to me.
no the forever means forever, as I see it.
But it's not an adverb in Hebrew.
in "closed its bars forever" the forever is an adverb.
You could also add a verb like "to be".
I would translate "I would have been there forever!"
Since the verb is missing, and you need to add a verb for English to make sense, who says it has to be a verb in its past indicative form. It could be a verb in some conditional tense,
this is at least my take on the matter.
firedragon
Veteran Member
Irrelevant. But thanks for showing that.
I think it was clearly explained. You missed the point. And though you accuse me of preaching etc etc, that's what you are doing. So you think of others in the same way. And you say I am doing the ad hominem?
You made an absurd point and its evident.
Have a great day.
Well did anyone get this mysterious point of yours that was allegedly clearly explained?
I could have been more specific i suppose. I was saying your accusation of being dogmatic was ad hominem.And though you accuse me of preaching etc etc, that's what you are doing. So you think of others in the same way. And you say I am doing the ad hominem?
As far as the preaching thing is concerned I have been trying to use "it appears to me" etc style language rather than bashing my opponent with "you are being dogmatic" style language so I was speaking more with reference to forum rules when I explained it is just preachy projection.
Its not evident to me and since you haven't been exactly drowned in a sea of likes so far possibly not to anyone else either.
wellwisher
Well-Known Member
It's no secret that God's "inerrant" word is riddled with errors. One can google "Bible contradictions" and come up with with pages and pages of results outlining hundreds if not thousands of errors and contradictions. Whole books on the subject are available on Amazon. Ken Ham wrote a two-volume rebuttal to the most common ones and his treatise doesn't even scratch the surface. I looked at one site and thought I saw 5000. Turns out it was 50,000. It's true that most are of a minor nature, but quite a few--perhaps 500 by my reckoning are egregious enough to be considered serious enough to question the Bible's veracity.
I recently had a short discussion with a member in here about Leviticus 16:34
34 “And this shall be a statute forever for you: Atonement is to be made once a year for all the sins of the Israelites.”
I questioned, "Why did God say the animal sacrifice is to last forever when He knew He'd be sending His son Jesus in 1200 years or so to replace. I would have suspected God would have said, "This statute is only temporary until I send a more perfect sacrifice in the form of my divine son." The truth is IMHO when the scribes wrote out this passage they had absolutely no idea a civilization called Romans would conquer them and destroy Jerusalem and Herod's Temple in 70 CE, therefore they were not in communication with Yahweh when they wrote this ordinance any more than I am in communication with the man in the moon. IOW, this whole atonement thing is a result of a custom that likely evolved over many centuries rather than being handed down by Yahweh all at once.
These errors are why the discipline, apologetics was invented in the first place--to counter with subterfuge or any other means at their disposal to try to make right what was clearly wrong. I can give a few examples of this suberfuge:
“Your house and your kingdom will endure forever before me; your throne will be established forever”
Obviously David's throne and kingdom didn't last forever. It ended when the Babylonians marched into Israel. Clever apologists say however that David's throne didn't really end because one day Jesus (who has been set up to be David's offspring via Matthew's and Luke's completely different genealogies for Jesus) will return to earth to claim the throne and rule from it. How this negates the tens of thousands years Israel is and will be without David's house and kingdom until then is a complete mystery to me.
Another is Ezekiel's prophecy that Tyre would be completely destroyed and never rebuilt. Tyre still exists today. You can visit it (when the pandemic is over). Clever apologists say, however that Ezekiel was speaking of the city's original site. The site where Tyre sits today is a different site. In actuality Tyre consisted of two cities, a coastal town and an adjacent island town off the coast. Nebuchadnezzar did indeed destroy the coastal town but he wasn't able to anything to the island. Later Alexander the Great built a bridge to reach the island but only managed to destroy half of it. So the prophecy failed in two ways.: it wasn't completely destroyed and, contrary to what God says,
"You will never be rebuilt, for I the LORD have spoken, declares the Sovereign LORD" --Ezekiel 26:14
Tyre thrives today completely rebuilt. For those who doubt here is a pic of it.
Yahweh was wrong obviously.
Anyway, here is one of the more than 500 most egregious mistakes that IMHO cannot be reconciled even by the most stalwart apologists:
For I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation. —Exodus 20:5
The child will not share the guilt of the parent ---Ezekiel 18:20
For I am the Lord; I change not. —Malachi 3:6
Really, God? You changed from commanding punishment up to the 4th generation for the father's sin, but 600 years later you now say no punishment will be visited on the son. I wonder how apologists square those two verses without contradicting Malachi 3:6.
This post is already too long. I will introduce other egregious errors as the thread lengthens, providing apologists are brave enough to address the things I said in this OP.
When Eve and then Adam ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, which is symbolic of choosing law over instinct, they allied with Satan. The Tree of knowledge of Good and Evil was Satan's tree. Satan was the Lord of the Earth in the Old Testament. This role of Satan can be seen in the book of Job, where God the Father is taking a plant tour and Satan is escorting him. Satan coaxes God, to put Job through the ringer to prove Job is only faithful because of his good life.
God the Father, in the Old Testament, was like the Chairman of the Board, while Satan was his CEO on charge of earth operations. In the Book of Job, God is touring Satan's charge with the CEO asking the Chairman for resources. Satan is not thrown from heaven, until Revelations of the New Testament, which was written after the death of Jesus. Satan was the Lord of the Earth when Jesus was killed, which is why that outcome was allowed. Satan as CEO had the final say. Years later, after Satan is booted from heaven and loses his job as CEO, Jesus takes over at the right hand of God.
Satan as CEO, like law, was both good and evil. Satan's nature, as the binarius, explains all the inconsistencies that are often attributed to God, by the atheists. Satan as the binarius of good and evil could be nice and cruel at the same time. God does not do good and evil, since he is morally neutral like instinct. Rather that binary approach is connected to binary nature of Satan, when he was still at the right hand of power in the Old Testament.
The CEO role of Satan is confirmed in Mathew 4, where Jesus goes into the desert to fast for 40 days and nights. Satan visits him and among other things, Satan offers Jesus all the wealth and power of the kingdoms of the world, if Jesus would bow and serve him. Jesus does not say this is a deception because Satan is lying, but rather Jesus graciously declines the offer, since he knew Satan had this authority on earth. Jesus also knew this vision of the Messiah may not turn out as hoped for, due to the binary nature of Satan.Imagine if the Messiah was to become the assistant to Satan, as had been Satan's offer.
Had Jesus accepted the offer, he would have become the Messiah promised to the Jews, by Satan. The Old Testament Messiah was to become rich and powerful and able to subdue all the enemies of Israel. Instead by declining the offer, Jesus decided to become something better. This ambition started a debate in heaven, with the powers to be, taking sides. Satan is thrown from heaven. The resurrected Jesus, would then assume his new role at the right hand of the power.
Satan in the Old Testament, like knowledge of good and evil, he was not entirely good or entirely evil, but a blend of both. His promises were not entirely valid, but did pander to the vanities of man. When Satan is thrown from heaven, he comes to earth with great wrath, but now without any divine authority to act. Satan becomes renegade. However, humans of the earth are so used to Satan as the Lord of the Earth, that Satan maintains a following on earth. This begins the battle between law and faith or between following the former and booted CEO Satan, or the new CEO Jesus. This is the theme of Revelations.
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