When it comes to Prayer 76% of Americans Don't Give a **** About the Constitution

[Sultan Of Swing]

That isn't a good enough reason to give it special treatment.

Why? I believe preserving culture, tradition etc. is important. At least the good parts.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

What about those who do mind ?

They can start home-schooling

Those who do mind are making mountains out of molehills

 

[viole]

Just the fact that atheists are so against prayer shows just how powerful prayer is!!

We are not against prayers. We are against sponsoring it.

Would you give money to sponsor Muslim prayers? If not, why not? Because they are so effective?

Ciao

- viole

 

[SkepticThinker]

America was founded on Christian values but with a constitution which allowed for freedom of religion. The Constitution the Declaration of Independence our money all makes reference to a Christian god. So like it or not agree or not the United States is a Christian based country and will remain so for a very long time.

Get over it.
It is what it is.
Deny all you like but the U.S. IS a Christian based country.

Don't like it?
Then change the Constitution & the Declaration of Independence.
Don't know what they ^^^^ say? Shame on you now read them and enlighten yourself.
NO ONE IF FORCING ANYONE TO BE A CHRISTIAN!

"freedom of religion" you see.

Doubt this nation was founded on "god" principles?
Read a dollar bill then!
Better yet read the Declaration of Independence and our Constitution.
Remember those documents?
Don't like what a buck says? Then lobby for a change in our currency.

The Constitution does not reference any Christian god, or any god at all. The Declaration of Independence mentions a "Creator." And the references to god on the money didn't come for many, many years after the country was founded.

Why? I believe preserving culture, tradition etc. is important. At least the good parts.

Then let the people who practice Christianity preserve their culture of practicing Christianity.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Why? I believe preserving culture, tradition etc. is important. At least the good parts.

You don't need prayer in schools to preserve culture, and it isn't preserving anything but rather promoting specific interpretations of specific religions/denominations.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

Where in the bible does it say abortion is wrong?

It is implied by God knitting people together in the womb, saying He knows us before we were born, in the mother's womb, implying we existed as persons, etc.

How does someone justify calling themselves a Christian, which means they follow Christ who taught to turn the other cheek and love thy neighbor as yourself, turn around and buy weapons that are specifically created to kill people? When Pro-lifers actually live by Christs example in all aspects of their lives instead of picking and choosing what teachings they want to follow and ignoring the rest I'll take them seriously. Otherwise they can mind their own business, if they don't want to have an abortion then whatever, but don't tell others how to live and what to do. Especially when they are clearly hypocrites who cannot follow their own religions teachings.

There is much debate over self-defence in Christianity, and many would argue that even if personal self-defence is not ideal, refusing to defend your family from a home invader would not be turning the other cheek but would be unloving towards them. As such, some feel it necessary to purchase arms to fulfil this duty to one's family.

There are plenty of unjustified wars. Like the Iraq war for instance. People who pushed their pro-life agenda also pushed for the Iraq war that led to thousands upon thousands of innocent peoples deaths. Then they turn around and want to tell people who don't share their beliefs how to live their lives. No, their beliefs are completely self contradictory and illogical. Until they can make a Pro-life argument that makes sense and doesn't make them a hypocrite I'm not interested in listening to it.

Not everyone who is pro-life pushed for the Iraq war.

There are some who believe it was justified, and have a worldview that we must forcibly rid the world of tyrants and install democracies.

I do not.

This does not invalidate their argument however, when they truly believe a war was justified. Murdering unborn is quite different.

 

[Koldo]

They can start home-schooling

Those who do mind are making mountains out of molehills

Wouldn't the same apply if the state were to forbid such prayers ?
Wouldn't being against such ruling entail making mountains out of molehills ?

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

You don't need prayer in schools to preserve culture, and it isn't preserving anything but rather promoting specific interpretations of specific religions/denominations.

Yeah prayers aren't really going to make a difference either way.

It wasn't a big deal in the first place. It was already there, and as I've already said, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

Wouldn't the same apply if the state were to forbid such prayers ?
Wouldn't being against such ruling entail making mountains out of molehills ?

I am not some avid supporter who is actively campaigning for it to return.

The prayers were already there. The government made a mountain out of a molehill by removing it when there was absolutely no need to.

I sit in the corner and grumble a bit, then move on.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

The point was that no faith should be allowed to have any prayer in schools. No faith. The minute a faith is allowed, you have bias. You have those who don't adhere to that faith being rightfully offended. Prayer belongs in church, not school. Period.

Mountains... Molehills...

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

I'm getting so many responses I feel so popular.

Is this why people have controversial views? To get the attention?

 

[jeager106]

I'm getting so many responses I feel so popular.

Is this why people have controversial views? To get the attention?

Being popular does not dictate positive.
Hitler enjoyed popularity. For a while. In his world.

Controversial views is what this forum is about.
And we are entitled to those views same as your views.
Didja fergit that?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Yeah prayers aren't really going to make a difference either way.

So it's the "privilege" of those who aren't Christian to sit through silently as the Christians get their own special treatment to allow for their own prayer according to their own religion and practices, but when those same Christians do not get this special treatment it's not going to make a difference?

 

[Demonslayer]

America was founded on Christian values but with a constitution which allowed for freedom of religion

LOL, I posted this as a joke three posts above. Though some of the Founding Fathers were technically labeled Christian, their beliefs were nothing like the religious right in America today. Jefferson famously cut out all the superstitious parts of the Bible with a razor, leaving only the lessons of Jesus, creating his "Jefferson Bible."
Ben Franklin said "Religion I found to be without any tendency to inspire, promote, or confirm morality, serves principally to divide us and make us unfriendly to one another." In addition to Jefferson's famous "wall between church and state" quote, George Washington said "no one would be more zealous than myself to establish effectual barriers against the horrors of spiritual tyranny." John Adams in the treaty of Tripoli said "The Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion."

I mean it doesn't get any clearer than that.

This country was never "founded on Christian principles." This country was founded on secular principles. It wasn't until the Red Scare in the 1950s where the Christianity we know of today started up in earnest. This is when Under God and In God We Trust were added unconstitutionally to our money and our national pledge.


Historian Gregg L. Frazer argues that the leading Founders (Adams, Jefferson, Franklin, Wilson, Morris, Madison, Hamilton, and Washington) were neither Christians nor Deists, but rather supporters of a hybrid "theistic rationalism"

 

[SkepticThinker]

Yeah prayers aren't really going to make a difference either way.

It wasn't a big deal in the first place. It was already there, and as I've already said, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

It is broke.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

Being popular does not dictate positive.
Hitler enjoyed popularity. For a while. In his world.

Controversial views is what this forum is about.
And we are entitled to those views same as your views.
Didja fergit that?

I thought I was the one with controversial views, that was the point.

Apologies for my bloated sense of self-importance.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

It is broke.

Why? What practical, real, negative effect has it had?

 

[Demonslayer]

It's just a little prayer at the start of the day

Don't want it, don't want my kids to be forced to hear it. Don't care what you want, do it at home.

Christianity is the cultural religion

Less and less so every year.

if a school wishes to respect that fine by me.

If a private school wished to do so I respect that to, but not a public school. Fine by you, but not by many so why should you win?

Buddhism and Hinduism aren't.

Two things on this. First of all, are you willing on the day that Buddhism, Islam or Hinduism become the majority of religion, to allow those religions to be legislated and all the Christian students from that day forward have to pause their studies for the prayer time of the new "cultural religion?"

Second is, only about 60-70% of the "culture" right now is Christian. So what, the other 30%-40% can go crap in their hats? How infuriatingly arrogant.

That's why people are bristling at your responses. Christians on this issue are acting like arrogant, privileged whiners.

• Christianity: (59.9% to 70.6%)

• Unaffiliated, including atheist or agnostic (15.0% to 37.3%)

• Judaism (1.2% to 2.2%)

• Islam (0.6% to 0.9%)

• Buddhism (0.5% to 0.9%)

• Hinduism (0.4% to 0.7%)

• Unitarian Universalism (0.3%)

• Wicca/Paganism/Druidry (0.1%)

 

[First Baseman]

LOL, I posted this as a joke three posts above. Though some of the Founding Fathers were technically labeled Christian, their beliefs were nothing like the religious right in America today. Jefferson famously cut out all the superstitious parts of the Bible with a razor, leaving only the lessons of Jesus, creating his "Jefferson Bible."
Ben Franklin said "Religion I found to be without any tendency to inspire, promote, or confirm morality, serves principally to divide us and make us unfriendly to one another." In addition to Jefferson's famous "wall between church and state" quote, George Washington said "no one would be more zealous than myself to establish effectual barriers against the horrors of spiritual tyranny." John Adams in the treaty of Tripoli said "The Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion."

I mean it doesn't get any clearer than that.

This country was never "founded on Christian principles." This country was founded on secular principles. It wasn't until the Red Scare in the 1950s where the Christianity we know of today started up in earnest. This is when Under God and In God We Trust were added unconstitutionally to our money and our national pledge.


Historian Gregg L. Frazer argues that the leading Founders (Adams, Jefferson, Franklin, Wilson, Morris, Madison, Hamilton, and Washington) were neither Christians nor Deists, but rather supporters of a hybrid "theistic rationalism"

The founding fathers never meant for anyone to practice religion in the USA at all. As a matter of fact the 1st amendment right to religion is just to be ignored and was only put there for political correctness. Religion should be discouraged and therefore unproven theories should be taught in science classes as fact. Abiogenesis is a wild theory at best but children are taught "around" it. Who cares? Religion is to be discouraged at all costs! Teach any old lie or theory but keep religion away from our classrooms!

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

So it's the "privilege" of those who aren't Christian to sit through silently as the Christians get their own special treatment to allow for their own prayer according to their own religion and practices, but when those same Christians do not get this special treatment it's not going to make a difference?

I didn't use the word 'privilege' not sure why you're putting that in quotation marks.

I'm saying it wasn't a big deal and didn't have to be changed.