Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe you are in error. I don't believe He grabs as you stated.
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When Jesus Comes Back...What Will He Come Back As?
- Thread starter Sunstone
- Start date
I believe you are in error. I don't believe He grabs as you stated.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe the B man is absolutely not Jesus
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
And so, what do you think is the solution to that, to wait for the Messiah? Or do you think you are going to get Jews and Christians to listen to external instruction and accept corrections?
I agree. So who do you believe that person is?
I believe Baha’u’llah was the Representative of God among men. He was sent from heaven to correct misunderstandings about the Bible, which was only one of the many tasks He accomplished on His mission. Abdu’l-Baha, the Centre of Baha’u’llah’s Covenant, and Shoghi Effendi, Guardian of the Faith, were Baha’u’llah’s appointed interpreters, so they had authority to interpret the Bible.
“Know assuredly that just as thou firmly believest that the Word of God, exalted be His glory, endurethfor ever, thou must, likewise, believe with undoubting faith that its meaning can never be exhausted. They who are its appointed interpreters, they whose hearts are the repositories of its secrets, are, however, the only ones who can comprehend its manifold wisdom. Whoso, while reading the Sacred Scriptures, is tempted to choose therefrom whatever may suit him with which to challenge the authority of the Representative of God among men, is, indeed, as one dead, though to outward seeming he may walk and converse with his neighbors, and share with them their food and their drink.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 175-176
I do not interpret that verse as saying we use the prophecies as our method of seeking. That might be one way to determine who the Messiah will be but it is certainly not foolproof. If it was, the Jews would not have failed to recognize Jesus. After all, they were using their scriptures to determine what the Messiah would be like and what He would do, etc. That did not work because they misconstrued their peophecies. Jesus said by their fruits we will know them:
Matthew 7:15-20 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
What do you believe was Yeshua's reason for coming that Baha’is ignore?
Briefly, the Baha’i belief is that Jesus Christ focused attention primarily on the redemption of the individual and the molding of his conduct, stressing as its central theme the necessity of inculcating a high standard of morality and discipline into man, as the fundamental unit in human society.
Jesus laid the “foundation” for the future Kingdom of God on earth by spiritualizing humanity, and without this foundation the Kingdom would not be possible. Jesus was also the Herald of the Kingdom, the Harbinger who came to announce the coming of the Kingdom.
From: Christ and Baha'u'llah
The Kingdom in the Bible . . . . . . . . . . . .14
Jesus Christ, Herald of the Kingdom . . . . . . 20
How do you know Yeshua's reason for coming?
What is the Biblical deception you think Baha’is ignore?
Baha’is do not ignore the fact that the Christianity of the Church is false. Quite the contrary. It is a Baha’i belief that the false prophets of the Church contrived to change the essential meaning of the Gospel so that it became quite different from that which the Bible recorded or Jesus taught.
From: Christ and Baha'u'llah
The False Prophets . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 25
Do you believe that the Qur’an is false, or the religion of Islam? What is false about Islam?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I never said that Baha’u’llah was Jesus. It was the Christ Spirit that came back, not the same man Jesus. The Christ Spirit came back in the Person of Baha’u’llah.
Jesus was the Comforter. Jesus prayed to the Father to send another Comforter. Jesus said the Comforter would teach you all things. Jesus said He had to depart and go to heaven so He could send another Comforter
John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
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Baha’u’llah was the Spirit of truth who has guided us to all truth.
John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
John 16:12-13 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes forth from with the Father, *he* shall bear witness concerning me;
Baha’u’llah did exactly what Jesus said He would do. He testified of Jesus and bore witness to Jesus. Referring to Jesus as the Son of Man, Baha’u’llah wrote:
“Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent Spirit.
We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.
Leprosy may be interpreted as any veil that interveneth between man and the recognition of the Lord, his God. Whoso alloweth himself to be shut out from Him is indeed a leper, who shall not be remembered in the Kingdom of God, the Mighty, the All-Praised. We bear witness that through the power of the Word of God every leper was cleansed, every sickness was healed, every human infirmity was banished. He it is Who purified the world. Blessed is the man who, with a face beaming with light, hath turned towards Him.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 85-86
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The Bible says that Jesus would have another name which indicates that it would be another man who brought the Christ Spirit.
Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
The Messiah/Saoshyant (Bringer of Truth) doesn't correct them; they've already been set up to go opposite, so we can remove all the ungodly...
The Messiah comes back just before it, to say the end of this Age is about to happen.
Me.
Which disqualifies Baha’u’llah’s message, as he didn't understand that Yeshua didn't go around saying "Ego I-mee" ("I AM"), and warns that many shall be deceived by it (Luke 21:8, Mark 13:5-6, Matthew 24:4-5)...
Where that proves the Gospel of John is made up by the faulty vocabulary, and again Baha’u’llah didn't know this from birth.
Yeshua & Elijah (John the Baptist) came to put (Malachi 4:5-6) the Curse of Moses on the world (Deuteronomy 28, Leviticus 26)...
The other part is to lay the Snare (Isaiah 8, Isaiah 28) to catch out all the ungodly.
Because with careful analysis of the scriptures we can show it in the Tanakh.
Missed the Snare, Curse, "Ego I-mee" ("I Am"), Wheat (Synoptic Gospels) Vs Tares (John, Paul, and Simon), etc, and that here is near Hell currently, with most to be removed.
The Quran doesn't understand who Yeshua was, what he came to do, and how things are taking place; so tho it matches Judaisms ideas of what could be, it isn't right with what was prophesied.
In my opinion.
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Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I guess you have everything figured out. You said “we.” So you and others are going to remove the ungodly?
So you believe you were sent from heaven?
It appears as if you already know everything so you have no need to listen to what anyone else has to say. You know you are right and everyone else is wrong about everything.
I believe that Baha’u’llah was sent by God from heaven and He was infallible, thus He was the only one who knew what any of the scriptures meant.The previous Manifestations of God also knew since they were all one soul, but that does not help us because they did not explain them.
However, Baha’u’llah did not write much about the Bible. It really does not matter what the older scriptures meant now because those Dispensations have been unconditionally abrogated by the Revelation of Baha’u’llah. I consider it a waste of time to even talk about the Tanakh or the Bible. History has moved on but unfortunately not too many people have realized that – yet. The older religions and their scriptures only serve as a veil that prevents most people from seeing the truth from God for this age. It won’t be that way in the future though, because everyone will recognize Baha’u’llah in due time. The Promised Day is Come. Nobody can thwart the God’s Purpose for humanity.
“God’s purpose is none other than to usher in, in ways He alone can bring about, and the full significance of which He alone can fathom, the Great, the Golden Age of a long-divided, a long-afflicted humanity. Its present state, indeed even its immediate future, is dark, distressingly dark. Its distant future, however, is radiant, gloriously radiant—so radiant that no eye can visualize it......” The Promised Day is Come, p. 116
Spiderman
Veteran Member
Probably a homo-sapien with practically the same opinions, mannerisms, behavior, hobbies, interests, political-leanings, and hairdo as @Revoltingest
Or...
A fairy Godmother!
Or...
A fairy Godmother!
I don't do beliefs; I've known since birth, had a NDE to confirm it, fulfilled Revelation 10 before reading the Bible, etc.
Not in the slightest, I have great faith I do not know; even with a lot of first hand experience; unlike fake religious leaders who pretend they can answer every question.
Zoroastrian, Tanakh, Hindu, Taoist, American Indian, Buddhist, texts all state these things are going to take place; plus was told them first hand by the whole of Heaven at 15 years old.
Now my mission on the internet, is to see if there is anything we can do to turn humanity around.
So on ignoring the religious contexts, that can be quantified in many religious texts as having a similar eschatology...
It isn't about me; this is what was stated, and to ignore such overwhelming correlation, isn't dealing with the data, it is choosing what we want to believe as it feels nice.
In my opinion.
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Trailblazer
Veteran Member
You do not do beliefs and I do not do interpretation of the Bible, especially the Book of Revelation... Unless it has been interpreted by Baha’u’llah, Abdu’l-Baha or Shoghi Effendi, I would just be guessing what these prophecies mean... Here is one authoritative position of the Baha’i Faith on the Bible, and there are many others on the link below:
From letters written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice:
The interpretation of biblical prophecies has long been the subject of controversy and speculation among religious scholars. As Bahá'ís, we know that we must turn to the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, 'Abdu'l-Bahá and Shoghi Effendi for authoritative guidance in these matters. When a subject has not been mentioned or explained in the Sacred Writings, we are free to consult other books and to consider the opinions of scholars if we wish to do so.
In studying the Bible Bahá'ís must bear two principles in mind. The first is that many passages in Sacred Scriptures are intended to be taken metaphorically, not literally, and some of the paradoxes and apparent contradictions which appear are intended to indicate this. The second is the fact that the text of the early Scriptures, such as the Bible, is not wholly authentic.
(28 May 1984 to an individual believer)
...The Bahá'ís believe that God's Revelation is under His care and protection and that the essence, or essential elements, of what His Manifestations intended to convey has been recorded and preserved in Their Holy Books. However, as the sayings of the ancient Prophets were written down some time later, we cannot categorically state, as we do in the case of the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, that the words and phrases attributed to Them are Their exact words.
(9 August 1984 to an individual believer)
The Bible: Extracts on the Old and New Testaments
Thanks for clarifying that... So you do not think you know everything that there is to know but apparently you think you know what cannot be true; that is what I meant. Do you mean you have great faith in God, or faith in your experiences?
Once cannot argue against a personal experience such as an NDE. It was real to you and I believe they are real... So what did Heaven tell you?
I agree that all those texts state what will take place, but it is a matter of interpretation what will take place, meaning we cannot know exactly what it will be...
From: Prophecy Fulfilled Webpage
“Each of the world's major religions contains Messianic prophecies.
Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, the Zoroastrian religion and even the Native American religions all foretell the coming of a Promised One. Each of the Founders of these great religions either promised to personally return himself, to send another like himself or in some instances.... the Founder promised to do both.
Christians await the return of Christ and the coming of "another comforter." The Jewish scriptures foretell the coming of "another Prophet" like Moses and the return of Elijah from heaven. Many Moslems await the appearance of Mahdi and Meseeh. Krishna promised to personally return from age to age. Buddha said that he was not the first Buddha ever to appear and that another "supremely enlightened" Buddha was still yet to come. Zoroastrian prophecies foretell the coming of a "World-renovator." Native American prophecies foretell the coming of a bearded white man from the east who will bring teachings which will restore the hoop of unity.
Each religion, in its own way, has foretold the coming of a great 'religion restoring', 'world uniting', 'peace bringing' Messiah.
For centuries, people from all over the world have been hoping and praying that they will be the generation which will witness the appearance of their Promised One. Not many have considered the possibility that these prophecies from the various religions might actually all be foretelling the exact same event.”
What do you mean by “turn humanity around?”
Do you mean save them from destruction, the end of the world, before it is too late? What do you think is necessary to save humanity from destruction?
When I became a Baha’i in 1970 there was a lot of talk about what we call the calamities, and it is written in what we call Pilgrim’s Notes that some pretty horrendous things will happen, but nobody pays that much attention anymore, partly because the Pilgrims Notes are not considered “authoritative scriptures” of the Baha’i Faith... However, since Baha’u’llah wrote it I do not know why Baha’is tend to ignore it. There is a kind of complacency and most feel we cannot really do anything about it if it is the Will of an Almighty God. Nobody knows exactly what is going to happen or when, so maybe that is why Baha’is so not talk about it much anymore. Regarding the future, Shoghi Effendi quotes Baha’u’llah, and that is authoritative scriptures of the Baha’i Faith:
“The time for the destruction of the world and its people,” Bahá’u’lláh’s prophetic pen has proclaimed, “hath arrived.” “The hour is approaching,” He specifically affirms, “when the most great convulsion will have appeared.” “The promised day is come, the day when tormenting trials will have surged above your heads, and beneath your feet, saying: ‘Taste ye what your hands have wrought!’” “Soon shall the blasts of His chastisement beat upon you, and the dust of hell enshroud you.” And again: “And when the appointed hour is come, there shall suddenly appear that which shall cause the limbs of mankind to quake.” “The day is approaching when its [civilization’s] flame will devour the cities, when the Tongue of Grandeur will proclaim: ‘The Kingdom is God’s, the Almighty, the All-Praised!’” “The day will soon come,” He, referring to the foolish ones of the earth, has written, “whereon they will cry out for help and receive no answer.” “The day is approaching,” He moreover has prophesied, “when the wrathful anger of the Almighty will have taken hold of them. He, verily, is the Omnipotent, the All-Subduing, the Most Powerful. He shall cleanse the earth from the defilement of their corruption, and shall give it for an heritage unto such of His servants as are nigh unto Him.”
The Promised Day Is Come, pp. 3-4
Keep in mind, the following passage was written about 150 years ago, but nobody knows when the appointed hour will come or exactly what will happen. It has not happened yet though since the Divine Standard has not been unfurled.
“The world is in travail, and its agitation waxeth day by day. Its face is turned towards waywardness and unbelief. Such shall be its plight, that to disclose it now would not be meet and seemly. Its perversity will long continue. And when the appointed hour is come, there shall suddenly appear that which shall cause the limbs of mankind to quake. Then, and only then, will the Divine Standard be unfurled, and the Nightingale of Paradise warble its melody.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 118-119
There is also an indication that this could be averted, depending up[on how you interpret the following passage:
“We have a fixed time for you, O peoples. If ye fail, at the appointed hour, to turn towards God, He, verily, will lay violent hold on you, and will cause grievous afflictions to assail you from every direction. How severe, indeed, is the chastisement with which your Lord will then chastise you!”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 214
Unless someone is still trying to correlate something they do not need to go backwards in time and look at the older scriptures. I am not trying to correlate anything since I already know what I believe. I became a Baha’i based upon the Revelation of Baha’u’llah. I had never read one page of the Bible because I was not raised in any religion. I did not need to compare the Baha’i Faith to the other religions.
Since I became a Baha’i I have learned about some other religions and that only confirmed what I already believed. It is not about what feels nice; if I wanted to feel nice I would be a Christian because it is a lot more appealing on an emotional level to have a relationship with Jesus and be saved and forgiven of all my sins, and it is a lot less work than being a Baha’i. However, only the Baha’i Faith appeals to my higher rational faculty as well as my inner intuition and sense of salvation for all of humanity.
So, what does Oneness stand for, oneness of all the religions?
Oneness is the name of Heaven in my NDE; it is what I shouted from the lowest dimension (Hell)... "Yet I know Oneness!"...
0neness (Zeroness) is that when we realize the self identification of us all being Oneness, then we can let go of self, and become selfless (0neness).
All religions reference Oneness, as it is the ultimate goal.
I have great faith (trust) I do not know... I have experiences which leads me to know, love, serve & worship God.
Multiple things: The Hebrew word for repentance (H7725) means 'to turn back', and in this case turn towards the Light of the Lord.
Thus there are things currently that are wrong in this world, and it is very easy to fix with people cooperating; so if we could turn their religious bigotry around, and make them accept Oneness as a whole, we can coordinate fixing the planet before it is too late.
There have been a few occasions, at 15 was, "Read all the religions of the world, and when you've read them you will understand the magic of the world; when you've understood this build a place, and from that place peace will spread"...
After this was an explanation of events that will take place, leading to a global tribulation; yet it was nearly picture form, and much was obscured even since the day I was told, "when the time comes you will remember".
Fixing the religions to be One would lead to a global community, that can work together, and honor the right form of God (CPU).
From there we can re-irrigate all the arid land we've desecrated by bad farming practices, buildings, and wars.
We can produce free energy, got a perpetual motion generator given me as well.
The military industrial complex needs dismantling, and our leaders who support it, locking up for being psychopaths.
Alcohol, and eating of animals are both death, and would be included in religious comprehension; 'if we eat death, we become it' (6th commandment).
Cannabis & psychedelics need regulating globally to be shamanic plants, that are there to educate us about consciousness, and to help heal the planet...
Hemp can be used to fix paper, oil, plastics, fuel, housing, clothing, medicine, food (protein beyond meat & we have malnutrition without the full range of omega oils from it), etc.
Obviously there are loads more things, yet these are some core issues... Got to fix the climate soon, and if everyone would help, we could achieve it.
This is interesting, as it is the same as our mission; yet Baha’u’llah didn't recognize that Yeshua was the Right Arm of the Lord (YHVH), and our God the Most High is the CPU that manifests reality.
In my opinion.
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Wizandra writes of Oneness...the singularity of gravity self anointed.
A nothingness of total adoration of `God`, the supreme power over all.
The creator of all that exists in the known Cosmos of entities to infinity.
I wish and hope that his prayers get answered soon, if `He` really exists.
But... good thinking there, I hope your thoughts come true.
A nothingness of total adoration of `God`, the supreme power over all.
The creator of all that exists in the known Cosmos of entities to infinity.
I wish and hope that his prayers get answered soon, if `He` really exists.
But... good thinking there, I hope your thoughts come true.
Prestor John
Well-Known Member
Visions or dreams. The book of Revelation is a prime example.
Then how would their accounts have been recorded?
This explanation defies reason.
I have never claimed to be a spokesperson for “Christians” and I don’t appreciate you trying to turn me into one.
I believe that one of the main purposes for us being placed into mortality was for us to receive a physical body.
However, once both sin and death are overcome, our physical bodies will no longer be subject to those things.
Actually, the idea of a bodily Resurrection existed many millennia before the birth of Christ.
Both the Old and New Testaments (as well as many apocryphal and pseudepigraphal writings) have references to the doctrine.
It was such a prevalent teaching that the New Testament writers actually mentioned that the Sadducees did not believe in the Resurrection in order to separate them from the Pharisees.
A Resurrected Being has an immortal physical body, which can feel and do other things (like eating) but it will no longer be subject to weakness, disease and death.
As I said before, this idea was ancient before Christ was ever born and has been believed by many ancient peoples all over the world.
The ancient Mayans and Egyptians were most especially fascinated with the idea.
Claiming that this idea is a mere “fantasy” is the same as saying all Christian scripture and thought are “fantasy”.
You are free to believe it all you want, but you’d be a d**k for saying that IMHO.
I wonder how you received the authority to tell God what He can and cannot do or what He does or does not need.
The Lord Jesus Christ is the Lord of all Creation and He most definitely came down to live among mortal men.
He subjected Himself to all the weaknesses and frailties of mortality, in order to overcome them and perform His Atonement.
He died and rose again.
On the contrary, there are many Biblical passages that claim He will descend in His glory.
However, it is fortunate for me that I do not rely solely on the Bible alone for truth.
I have only spoken to a handful of practitioners of the Baha'i faith, yet each and every one of them quoted these verses.
I’ve seen this tactic of seizing a single verse or a few verses as a foundation for one’s belief and then building a little interpretation fort around it (while ignoring all the other verses that contradict their interpretation) used by many Christians of differing sects.
It isn’t new or special.
I understand why you would focus on these verses, considering your beliefs concerning Baha’u’llah, but I also can’t help feeling like it’s also because you guys don’t know any other Bible verses.
I disagree completely.
I believe that at some time after the Lord’s coming the Earth will literally be baptized by fire as it receives its Celestial Glory and then it will be moved closer to the throne of God.
There will literally be a new Earth and Heaven.
The first issue I see with your interpretation is that the verses you quoted claimed that the “day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night”, not that the Lord Himself would come as a thief in the night.
Peter was basically claiming that the time of His Second Coming will be sudden and the world will not be prepared for it.
The second issue with your interpretation is all the other Biblical verses that contradict it.
“And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.” (Acts 1:9-11)
Angelic testimony that Christ will descend from Heaven when He comes again.
“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” ( 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)
Christ’s descent from Heaven will be accompanied with a “shout”, the bodily rising of those who were “dead in Christ” and members of the Church alive at the time will rise up into the clouds to meet Christ “in the air”.
“And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,” (2 Thessalonians 1:7)
Angels will accompany Christ when He descends from Heaven.
“And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:” (2 Thessalonians 2:8)
Christ’s descent from Heaven shall be so bright that it will literally destroy the wicked.
“Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.” (Revelation 1:7)
Every eye shall see Christ while He descends from Heaven and “ALL the kindreds of the earth” will wail because of it.
“Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.” (1 John 3:2)
We shall see Christ as He is when He descends from Heaven.
You can defend your little fort all you want, but I’m going with the overwhelming and consistent scriptural evidence that contradicts it.
Yet the verses you quoted claim that there shall be a “fervent heat” that melts the elements and that the heavens would “dissolve” after being on fire.
That doesn’t sound like humans building anything, but rather, God destroying what the humans had built, or rather, the “works” upon the Earth being “burned up”.
According to other verses in the Bible (besides the few you know), Christ will descend from Heaven through the clouds and He will be accompanied by angels, shouts, trumpets, the rising of the dead, the faithful being “caught up” to meet Him and a glory so bright that every single person on the Earth will see Him, know Him for who He is, wail because of it and then the wicked among them will be destroyed.
You can read more about it in the Bible.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I understand that is what most Christians believe, but as a Baha’i I believe that the body once dead remains dead and that the soul goes to the spiritual world, also referred to as heaven, and takes on another form that is purely spiritual.
“The answer to the third question is this, that in the other world the human reality doth not assume a physical form, rather doth it take on a heavenly form, made up of elements of that heavenly realm.
And the answer to the fourth question: the centre of the Sun of Truth is in the supernal world—the Kingdom of God. Those souls who are pure and unsullied, upon the dissolution of their elemental frames, hasten away to the world of God, and that world is within this world. The people of this world, however, are unaware of that world, and are even as the mineral and the vegetable that know nothing of the world of the animal and the world of man.”
Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, pp. 194-195
I consider it a fantasy because I believe it is scientifically impossible. Physical bodies have never come back to life once they have died, not even once. I do not believe that the body of Jesus ever rose from the grave. Here is the official Baha’i position on the resurrection:
“Therefore, we say that the meaning of Christ’s resurrection is as follows: the disciples were troubled and agitated after the martyrdom of Christ. The Reality of Christ, which signifies His teachings, His bounties, His perfections and His spiritual power, was hidden and concealed for two or three days after His martyrdom, and was not resplendent and manifest. No, rather it was lost, for the believers were few in number and were troubled and agitated. The Cause of Christ was like a lifeless body; and when after three days the disciples became assured and steadfast, and began to serve the Cause of Christ, and resolved to spread the divine teachings, putting His counsels into practice, and arising to serve Him, the Reality of Christ became resplendent and His bounty appeared; His religion found life; His teachings and His admonitions became evident and visible. In other words, the Cause of Christ was like a lifeless body until the life and the bounty of the Holy Spirit surrounded it.” Some Answered Questions, p. 104
To me this is an untenable belief to say that God became a man and God died. Moreover, Jesus never claimed to be God, not once. The Church decided that they would elevate Jesus to God and it became an official doctrine. It is not in the Bible.
Any verses that refer to the Son of man coming in the clouds do not refer to Jesus. Those refer to Baha’u’llah.
What do you rely on, the indwelt Holy Spirit?
There are not just a few verses. There is an entire book that addresses the dozens of verses in the Bible that refer to the return of Christ: William Sears, Thief in the Night. It goes through each verse and explains how it was fulfilled by the coming of Baha’u’llah.
You can believe whatever you want to. I believe that the new earth is in the process of being built by humans. Shoghi Effendi, the Guardian of the Baha’i Faith wrote of Baha’u’llah:
“His mission is to proclaim that the ages of the infancy and of the childhood of the human race are past, that the convulsions associated with the present stage of its adolescence are slowly and painfully preparing it to attain the stage of manhood, and are heralding the approach of that Age of Ages when swords will be beaten into plowshares, when the Kingdom promised by Jesus Christ will have been established, and the peace of the planet definitely and permanently ensured. Nor does Bahá’u’lláh claim finality for His own Revelation, but rather stipulates that a fuller measure of the truth He has been commissioned by the Almighty to vouchsafe to humanity, at so critical a juncture in its fortunes, must needs be disclosed at future stages in the constant and limitless evolution of mankind.”
The Promised Day Is Come, v
Baha’u’llah wrote: “Beseech ye the one true God to grant that all men may be graciously assisted to fulfil that which is acceptable in Our sight. Soon will the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead. Verily, thy Lord speaketh the truth, and is the Knower of things unseen.” Gleanings, p. 7
Have you noticed lately on television news that they have been talking about the old world order and the new one?
I am well aware of these verses and I have discussed them at length with Christians for many years. As such, I already have an interpretation.
The disciples were staring up into the sky as the spirit of Jesus was taken up to heaven out of their sight. The two men dressed in white (angels) came along and asked why they were staring up into the sky because they wondered why the disciples were staring up into the sky. Then the angels said that the same Jesus who was taken up to heaven will return as he went to heaven.
It does not say that the disciples saw a body go up. It was the Christ Spirit that ascended, not a body, which is why the angels wondered why the disciples were staring into the sky, since there was nothing to look at. That makes perfect sense since angels can see spirits.
Descending from heaven upon the clouds means that the spirit of Jesus, the Christ Spirit, will be made manifest from the heaven of the will of God and will appear in the form of the human temple. Though delivered from the womb of Mary, Jesus in reality descended from the heaven of the will of God. Baha’u’llah descended in like manner, from the heaven of the will of God.
“But as the clergy have neither understood the meaning of the Gospels nor comprehended the symbols, therefore, it has been said that religion is in contradiction to science, and science in opposition to religion, as, for example, this subject of the ascension of Christ with an elemental body to the visible heaven is contrary to the science of mathematics. But when the truth of this subject becomes clear, and the symbol is explained, science in no way contradicts it; but, on the contrary, science and the intelligence affirm it.”
Some Answered Questions, pp. 104-105
(Continued on next post)
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Trailblazer
Veteran Member
It is all a matter of how one interprets the scripture. Here is the Baha’i interpretation.
It is impossible for the same man Jesus to return in the same body because the physical body of the same man Jesus is not still alive in heaven; although the soul of Jesus is very much alive in heaven, Jesus never promised to return to earth.
There is no atmosphere in heaven; it is s purely spiritual world, so a physical body cannot live in heaven... Only a spiritual body (soul) can live in heaven. It was the spirit of Jesus (the Christ Spirit) that returned from heaven when Christ returned. That Spirit then became associated with the body of Baha’u’llah when He was born, just as the spirit of Jesus (the Christ Spirit) became associated with the body of Jesus when Jesus was born from the womb of Mary.
Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Did you ever wonder why Jesus did not say “And then shall they see me coming in the clouds with great power and glory?”
The title Son of man does not apply exclusively to Jesus. It also applies to Baha’u’llah.
To explain the Baha’i belief in brief, Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven means that the return of the Christ Spirit promised in the Bible will be made manifest from the heaven of the will of God, and will appear in the form of a human being. The term “heaven” means loftiness and exaltation. Although Jesus was delivered from the womb of His mother, in reality He descended from the heaven of the will of God. Though dwelling on this earth, His true habitation was the realms above. While walking among mortals on earth, Jesus soared in the heaven of the divine presence.
Baha’u’llah explained the meaning of clouds in The Kitáb-i-Íqán. He devoted quite a bit of text to explaining what clouds means. To paraphrase Baha’u’llah, Son of man coming on the clouds means that the return of the Christ Spirit will appear in the form of another human being. The term “clouds” as used in the Bible means those things that are contrary to the ways and desires of men. Just like the physical clouds prevent the eyes of men from beholding the sun, the desires of men hindered men from recognizing the return of Christ. Thus the meaning of clouds is symbolic, not literal. Their judgment was clouded.
That is based upon a literal interpretation of the Bible. Baha’is believe that Christ has already descended from heaven with a shout, and His name was Baha’u’llah.
“Say: The heavens have been folded together, and the earth is held within His grasp, and the corrupt doers have been held by their forelock, and still they understand not. They drink of the tainted water, and know it not. Say: The shout hath been raised, and the people have come forth from their graves, and arising, are gazing around them. Some have made haste to attain the court of the God of Mercy, others have fallen down on their faces in the fire of Hell, while still others are lost in bewilderment. The verses of God have been revealed, and yet they have turned away from them. His proof hath been manifested, and yet they are unaware of it. And when they behold the face of the All-Merciful, their own faces are saddened, while they are disporting themselves. They hasten forward to Hell Fire, and mistake it for light. Far from God be what they fondly imagine! Say: Whether ye rejoice or whether ye burst for fury, the heavens are cleft asunder, and God hath come down, invested with radiant sovereignty. All created things are heard exclaiming: “The Kingdom is God’s, the Almighty, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise.”” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 41-42
Those who came forth from their graves and recognized Baha’u’llah awakened to spiritual life. They thus came forth from their graves of ignorance. Others who rejected Baha’u’llah remained in their graves of ignorance, spiritually dead. Spiritual life can be equated with eternal life or everlasting life, which is a quality of life, being close to God. We get close to God through the Manifestation of God. In Jesus’ day that Manifestation was Jesus and he was the only way to get close to God (John 14:6); in this new day we get close to God through Baha’u’llah. God has manifested Himself in the Person of Baha’u’llah and that is why Baha’is call this the Day of God.
“Incline your ears to the sweet melody of this Prisoner. Arise, and lift up your voices, that haply they that are fast asleep may be awakened. Say: O ye who are as dead! The Hand of Divine bounty proffereth unto you the Water of Life. Hasten and drink your fill. Whoso hath been re-born in this Day, shall never die; whoso remaineth dead, shall never live.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 213
“He is indeed as one dead who, at the wondrous dawn of this Revelation, hath failed to be quickened by its soul-stirring breeze. He is indeed a captive who hath not recognized the Supreme Redeemer, but hath suffered his soul to be bound, distressed and helpless, in the fetters of his desires.
O My servants! Whoso hath tasted of this Fountain hath attained unto everlasting Life, and whoso hath refused to drink therefrom is even as the dead. Say: O ye workers of iniquity! Covetousness hath hindered you from giving a hearing ear unto the sweet voice of Him Who is the All-Sufficing. Wash it away from your hearts, that His Divine secret may be made known unto you. Behold Him manifest and resplendent as the sun in all its glory.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 169
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Since I read on another thread that you like learning new things, you might like this book entitled Private Dowding.
About this document (click for more)
Abstract:
A record of a soldier in WWI allegedly "channeled" to Pole from the afterlife.
Notes:
This book only tangentially mentions the Baha'i Faith; see pages 45-46.
Read about the author at Wikipedia.
From the Preface:
“This book contains a number of very optimistic predictions about the future welfare of the human race. A word of warning is necessary here. To those who live beyond the confines of time and space it is conceivable that a thousand years of human 'time' may appear to occupy the period of a single 'Day'. I have no doubt that the prophecies given by the 'Messenger' in part III of this book are destined to be fulfilled long before our planet ceases to function as a living entity. Surely it is man's mission to do all in his power to bring the 'Golden Age' of which the 'Messenger' speaks, nearer than seems credibly possible to our restricted vision. We should strive our utmost with this end in view, even if this end may seem remote and almost beyond the range of our present faith and understanding. We can take both courage and solace from the fact that a fresh spiritual Impulse is now making itself felt in our midst and that to our Creator, working through the hearts and minds of men, all things are not only possible but are certain to be harmoniously fulfilled in due course, both in time and in Eternity.”
The book gives an apt description of hell on pages 32-35 and elsewhere in the book it depicts the higher realms that could be equated to heaven.
That is pretty much my goal, denial of self and focus on God and others. Of course, Jesus taught that and so did Baha’u’llah.
You are correct about that. All the religions are part of the Faith of God and His Religion which has as its goal to unite the human race.
“The Great Being saith: O ye children of men! The fundamental purpose animating the Faith of God and His Religion is to safeguard the interests and promote the unity of the human race, and to foster the spirit of love and fellowship amongst men. Suffer it not to become a source of dissension and discord, of hate and enmity. This is the straight Path, the fixed and immovable foundation. Whatsoever is raised on this foundation, the changes and chances of the world can never impair its strength, nor will the revolution of countless centuries undermine its structure.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 215
I read that not long ago in a Baha’i book that all the religions had what was necessary to be universal and unite humanity, but it was the followers that changed the meanings of the revealed religions and made that impossible. Also of course, it was impossible to unite humanity before the world was all connected by mass communications as it is now. Baha’is believe that is one reason why Jesus could not accomplish back then what Baha’u’llah can do now. The other reason is that humanity had not yet progressed spiritually to the point where they would be amenable to unification. We are only in the early stages of that process now, it is going to take a long time to tear down the old world order and build up the new one. I am not simply referring to the material world but rather the spiritual transformation of humanity that will be necessary to be united and live in peace.
“What we witness at the present time, during “this gravest crisis in the history of civilization,” recalling such times in which “religions have perished and are born,” is the adolescent stage in the slow and painful evolution of humanity, preparatory to the attainment of the stage of manhood, the stage of maturity, the promise of which is embedded in the teachings, and enshrined in the prophecies, of Bahá’u’lláh. The tumult of this age of transition is characteristic of the impetuosity and irrational instincts of youth, its follies, its prodigality, its pride, its self-assurance, its rebelliousness, and contempt of discipline.” The Promised Day Is Come, p. 117
I do believe in NDEs are genuine, and what is garnished from those experiences is real, more real than anything in this world, but I do not believe as mystics do that God communicates directly with anyone or that anyone has access to God directly. Only through God’s Chosen Messengers do we have any way to know anything about God and that is also how we get close to God... I just expressed my views on mysticism in a post to Windwalker: #79
I also do not believe as Christians do that the Holy Spirit or lives inside anyone and speaks to them.
That is the exact same Goal of the Baha’i Faith. Your depiction is the closest I have ever seen to what we believe is necessary in this new age. I think the major obstacle to change is the lower selfish nature of man.
Wow, that is very fascinating. My husband who is also a Baha’i is very interested in NDEs so I am sure he will be interested in what you experienced. What you heard is what the Baha’i Faith teaches, that all religions are really One, all part of the progressive unfoldment of God’s truth over time, more revealed in every new age as humanity evolves spiritually.
Wow, that is quite a task list, and it sounds like some things that Baha’is are working on. Certainly, the general goals are the same. How do you think that can be accomplished without some kind of organization, or do you have one? Only fairly recently, within the last 5 ½ years, have I been concerned about the world situation and all of humanity; that is one reason I came back to the Baha’i Faith after having ignored the Faith and God for most of the decades I have been a Baha’i. I saw the world situation worsening back in 2012 and I finally decided it was my duty to think of someone besides myself. I have never looked back. I can’t.
What do you mean, Right Arm of the Lord? Do you elevate Jesus above all the other Manifestations of God and see Him as unique? How is Jesus related to God the Most High as the CPU that manifests reality?
We don't need to change it; we need to learn to work within the parameters of the situation we have... Thus everyone can be selfishly motivated to make their world a better place.
See this is where that isn't being honest with the data; now fair enough God wants Oneness, yet it has been clearly noted in many ancient religious texts, that many choose to go astray down here...
Thus they've been deliberately set up, as they don't acknowledge all context to notice the difference between good and evil...
They only want to see one aspect, and sometimes ignore the other; thus the world gets consistently worse, as we don't see the evils in some, as we take it as normal.
This is a phrase used in multiple places in the Tanakh, so when the red sea was separated it was the Arm of the Lord that gave us Salvation (Yeshua in Hebrew)...
When the Lord fought with us against Ammon that is the Arm of the Lord, as how can an infinite Arch Angel inhabit only a single form in a finite timeline.
Thus the person Yeshua was a physical avatar of YHVH; the spirit of the Lord was upon him.
YHVH/Yeshua is the head of the Divine Council in Heaven; as a manifestation he is the Chief Corner Stone, this is a game of the God's across the books to catch out the ravenous.
Thus in Revelation, when all the other Arch Angels (Buddha, Lao Tzu, Krishna, etc) throw down their Crowns before the Lamb, it is due to the ingenuity of having created this time loop to remove the ungodly.
In the New Testament, on a closer examination Yeshua does declare his father the God most High (EL Elyon/CPU).
Luke 6:35 But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing back; and your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High; for he is kind toward the unthankful and evil.
In other words Yeshua is saying the CPU our father, manifests reality for all of us down here.
Matthew 27:46 About the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lima sabachthani?” That is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”
Yeshua could have said Elohi which in modern Hebrew understanding also means 'my God'; yet in ancient understanding, the additional 'h' makes it a manifestation from God.
Understanding the differences between Elohim (Divine Beings) and El (God) singular, it makes it simpler to understand what the Bible was saying...
Yeshua Elohim (Psalms 98:3, Isaiah 52:10) and YHVH Elohim are two aspects of the same being.
Imagine the Arch Angels (Elohim) are the lens of the eye, it is the focusing for the pupil (CPU); thus both are One, yet unique. - One reflects by its depths, and the other collects.
This is a tricky question, and a work in progress: Got wizanda which is all me sharing stuff (music, book, etc) with the world.
Then just been given the role as chairman of my local community charitable Gala, which is part of what I'd like to do as well on a global scale...
Yet really if people would just accept the Messiah was back, we could just recruit all religions instantly; if certain religions would accept correction that is...
Which means the whole thing is pointless, as people don't face correction; they want to be told, "they've got it all right".
Tho this doesn't stop us trying; as the books provide both options...
Where souls help now or after the Tribulation, and then either way we've still got a whole team of saints, who want to help make our reality a better place for all.
In my opinion.
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Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe the B man is not Christ Spirit but I am.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe I see no evidence of even a probability.